Thats an excellent post. I find myself really agreeing with you on the post, especially your point about acting White. I don't think young Black people are using the phrase "acting White" in the way that many social scientists think. You could be right about it being a racialized way of calling somebody a nerd, but personally I'm not convinced that the phrase is only thrown at Blacks who are high achieving. I think it is much broader, and in many cases it is used in a kind of jealous way, which would mean that people using it are actually envious of those who they are trying to insult. However, I do think high achieving students are universally made fun of. I went to an all White school, and i was routinely critiqued for doing good in school. This idea that young Blacks have an aversion to being intelligent is way overstated and Spike Lee shoudl know that. There could be a small group of young Black people thinking this way, but it is not most.

Prof. Wing

I think your analysis of the Lee quote is quite insightful. Though there seems no difference in the “distinction” you proffer between his observations and those that have made Bill Cosby more infamous than famous (especially in the hood…with phonically correct guidance Prof. Eric Dyson).

I also think commenter Rachel has it just right in alluding to the universal phenomenon of making fun of smart kids (because they often look like “geeks” or because that is the only way dumb kids know how to interact with them and not feel, well, dumb).

But given all of the racial barriers white people erect to forestall our progress, I agree with the lamentations of people like Cosby and Lee who, after all, are merely admonishing us against the foolhardiness erecting more barriers to our progress than whites have done.

Ooops! Prof. Hutchinson that is....

Sorry.

There is a trend that I call "Black Exemplar Exodus" or "Black flight" that contributes to the problems to which I think Spike Lee referred.

Before racial desegregation became the norm instead of the exception, the best Black thinkers would make their lives in predominantly Black communities. Indeed, few of them had another viable option. Even those who tried to segregate themselves from other Blacks served as role models. Others, who did not try to segregate themselves, were exemplars who could be touched, seen, and heard on a daily basis.

Now, fewer Black professionals or intellectuals choose to make their lives in primarily Black communities—especially the most deprived communities. Fewer of them take on the difficult tasks of job producing entrepreneurship or economic development. These are tasks for the most talented Blacks our community can produce; however, the economic disincentives for these life choices are too strong for most Blacks professionals or intellectuals.

I think Spike Lee (interpreting him as charitably as I can) is trying to motivate us to reconsider and, then, better promote what "making it" means for Blacks. Making it could mean landing a job with a big law firm and pulling in a few hundred thousand a year (after a few years). Making it could mean landing a great professorship or authoring a few esteemed books or essays. Making it could mean solving a problem in the community that no one else could or was willing to solve. And, making it “big” could mean demonstrating entrepreneurial talents so extraordinary that one turns a deprived community into a flourishing economy in a single lifetime.

If we wanted to make developing one’s intellectual talents as popular in the Black Community as making round balls go swish, spitting a few bars over infectious beats, or starring in silver screen classics like “Soul Plane” or “Bringing Down the House,” then I think we would need to talk about removing the economic disincentives that keep some of our most intellectually talented and well-educated Black exemplars from making their lives in deprived Black communities. If more of them (not all of them of course) were to make their lives in these communities, then our youth (and some adults) could have a few more cool J.D.’s, M.B.A’s, and Ph.D’s to emulate, and “acting Black” could come to mean something very different to Blacks and Whites alike.

I think that what Spike Lee is saying is that black intellectuals ought to be icons TOO, that's a far cry from saying that they should "lead and guide the race." Because social location is important, I will clarify my own. I grew up not knowing any black doctors or lawyers, or PhD's for that matter. But I remember the "Ebony Success Library", and I remember reading and being enthralled by Patricia Roberts Harris and Clifton Wharton. I remember keeping filed somewhere in the back of my head their bios.

What I think is different for so many young, black kids today is that there just seem to be so little space for Patricia Roberts Harris' narrative to be told to them. Despite the growth in media resources in our communities, there seems to be even less room for differing images to break through. Now, this isn't a race issue, we see it at every interstate exit -- this homogenization of America -- where every town has a BesT Buy, a Target, and a Borders. But it affects black folks' differently than others, and the homogenization of media images is stiffled in a way that does not make it any easier for black children who will never live next to a JD to know that they are out there. I didn't have to work all that hard to see those images, black kids today, I think, have to work harder to see those images.

Finally, I don't think it does us any good to dismiss comments like Spike Lee's as simply "simplistic." Yeah, okay, they are, but there is some truth to them. Let's do our level best to address the kernel of truth before relieving ourselves by saying that they do not rise to the level of William Julius Wilson or Claude Steele.

I keep reading this blog hoping that those amongst us whom are professors, and scholars will add value to the discussion on race that has becoming increasingly anemic in America but honestly, you cats are letting me down.

I can only imagine what you all would say about a Marcus Garvey today if he was speaking.

Everyone knows race and economics are a powerful motivator, and everyone wants to assign the ultimate blame to these factors for our lack of self-development and self-love.

However this is a dual edged sword, because every time you cede power to something external, you devalue the internal perspective of the individual who needs to step up his or her game to get out of the situation that is oppressing them. Basic psychology shows that self-determinism and depression are directly related to ones perception of the locust of control in their life.

If it is something they feel they can control, and they are given the wherewithal to do it, the become self-determined personal change agents, if it is something they feel they can not control, then they become hapless participatory victims.

This is what the black power movement has transitioned to, the black blame movement, where everything under the civil rights rubric has become a scavenger hunt whereby our so-called 'leaders' attempt to find the racism variable as a behavioral excuse for us degrading ourselves. There was a time when self-affirmation, mutual identification of black value, and a demand for internal and external respect were the mantra.

Not any more, the demand for internal respect be our own amongst our own has become blame racism for our own and don't chastise the brothers and sisters who should be holding up a higher standard of behavior.

Why else would not more of you 'Black Profs' be dogging out modern commercial hip hop artist for the minstrel shows and sell-outs that they are? Or is it you are scared to catch the blow back?

I heard some brothers on a local radio station the other day play a Webie song that had the b* word in it 79 times during the primary listening period for kids.

So Webbie had no culpability or knowledge of the fact that calling a black woman a b* was a bad thing? It was racism that caused him to choose to do this?

So the radio station manager, and the dj, both of whom are brothers, and can control when and if that song is played (I know, I called and asked) have no culpability because they were influenced by racism and that is why they can put out a song calling a black woman a b* 79 times?

Come on, you must have a new and fresher more direct answer. Actually, it doesn't have to be new or fresh, a simple return to true black power concepts and a Garveyisque mentality will suffice.

You so-called intellectuals are talking in abstract concepts and the people who need you most, the brothers on the street, those who need to be directly challenged and confronted on their roles in the destruction of the race, and simultaneously encouraged to manifest their beauty and inherited but dormant strength are waiting sub-consciously.

But as of right now, trust me on this they...

ARE NOT FEELING YOU!

I appreciate every comment here. I used to think the problems of African-Americans could be solved by teaching black children about their heritage and great African-Americans. I thought that poor children were worse off because they lived in blighted communities without blacks of means and education to inspire them. I now disagree.

But I would like to call attention to the state of the black middleclass and their children. Although many African-Americans have done quite well in terms of education and income, their children on the average do not perform better than the children of disadvantaged blacks. Black middleclass children have been exposed to doctors, lawyers, business leaders, junior fraternal organizations, and the like. In short many middleclass black children live the "dream." Yet, middleclass black children do not perform better than their poor counterparts who often live in blighted communities without exposure to African-American intellectuals and entreprenuers. This suggests that as much as many would like to accept Bill Cosby and Spike Lee's critique of the black community, knowledge of African American icons outside the hip-hop community and exposure to educated black individuals may not help our children.

The problem poses a challenge to all black children irrespective of income, neighborhood, or parents' level of education. I lament the focus on the poor, when in fact our community suffers across the board. But what is the cause, if education, exposure, and access to black motifs outside the realm of hip-hop, are not to blame? I firmly believe that structural racism undermines the best efforts of African-Americans to succeed and punishes the poor with a vengance for being poor and black.

Although structural racism is a nebulous concept, I define it as an automatic-operating system, intentionally installed from the beginning of American slavery that perpetuates the "headstart" enjoyed by wealthy whites in America. Today the system works well. No one person needs to do anything overtly racist to hurt black people or favor whites. Further, blacks cannot escape it. Consider how difficult it is for African-American lawyers to get opportunities, network, and build successful practices. Notwithstanding their work ethic,these indviduals lack the historic connections to wealth and experience essential to success. White lawyers inherit opportunities based on wealthier more influential white networks, especially if they're wealthy.

Similarly, black children irrespctive of income or neighborhood experience structural discrimnation in the education system. Large urban school districts are overcrowded and impersonal, thus student performance and graduation rates remain low. Suburban school districts where many middleclass blacks live, place African-American children in special education programs disproportionately, while under-representing them in Advanced Placement courses. Therefore, neither poverty and social isolation, nor hip-hop and "gangsta" culture can account for the condition of black people in America.

Dell Gines,

With all do respect, black profs are not afraid to address rap lyrics or how many times a song refers to a black woman as b*. But please understand that people may disagree about the relationship between the music and the state of the community. Some educators believe that the music reflects reality. Thus, stomping out the music won't change anything. Others believe that the music at very least perpetuates black destruction. Still others believe that hip-hop music causes the ills we suffer today.

It is not unusual for the music of the youth to shock the entrenched social norms of the establishment. I do find the music and videos disturbing, but I refuse to blame artists for a societal ill that predates the current hip-hop culture.

Hello Black Ph.Ds!

My first time on your blog.

I think we should look at this within the framework of a divided people. The stratification within black culture is nearly as deep as it is within white culture. In other words, there are educated, middle class blacks and there are poor, uneducated blacks. Spike is coming from the educated perspective, and I think he's right. Many of us in the middle class who work hard for our people still have those "I can't deal with these niggaz" anymore days. I had one just the other day. It's natural. We're frustrated.

Mr. Gines,

I do not have time to respond to all of your comments, but I will say the following:

1. nothing in my post placed black people above critique;

2. your post suggests that Marcus Garvey is beyond critique (why?);

and

3. no one said that hip hop was beyond critique; in fact, I said that it was homphobic, sexist, etc.

I think that this is a place for dialogue and critical thinking. Welcome aboard. Race and inequality are intractable problems, and simplistic solutions will not do much. Many of our leaders had complex agendas. I think of Sojourner Truth, Frederick Douglass, Dr. King, and others. Your attempt to dichotomize "abstract" ideas and people on "the streets" is ahistorical and elitist. Are you saying that people on the street cannot respond to reasoning?

Mr. Gines,

It is you who are letting me down. I have met so many brothers like you over the years, who get so upset that other black people don't agree with their perspective. Then when challenged as to what it is that makes your contribution so special, they respond with ad hominem arguments that only serve to prop oneself, not the race, above others.

I am hiphop, and I am from and am around the way. I don't defend commercial hiphop or thuggery, because I know that hiphop as a whole and my neigborhood as a whole don't need to be defended. I don't listen to commercial radio hiphop, and if you are hiphop, neither should you.

That you are holding Webby up as an illustraton of what black people or hiphoppers are or how we think shows a fundamental misunderstanding of hiphop and the hood. It is hypocritical to know for a fact that these media outlets are controlled by forces that seek us no good, but at the same time accept their definition of what we are. That goes for all us so-called black intellectuals.

If you wanna talk about how black people on the streets are feeling. They are not feeling one way or another about us. They are feeling what it is to start a real life game of monopoly after most of the property has been already divvied out. Trying doing this with the actual Milton Bradley game as a series of experiments:

A small percentage of the time the late comer will have fortunate rolls and use good strategy and catch up to some of the original players, but hardly ever win the game. The lion share of late comers, even a strategy equally rational or superior to those already playing, will be bankrupt shortly. This means that allowing blacks into the game only after divvying up U.S. property for x amount of years, will result in a cycle of economic inferiority that hardly any amount of a viably superior social structure will overcome. Structural change is needed.

Most every economist recognizes that efficiency or rationality of market outcomes does not represent justness of outcomes.

P.S. And does it satisfy you that I did not "neuter" my opinion by forming it as a question?

I agree with Dell insofar as that there seems to be a tendency to talk about "abstract" concepts, rather than concrete planning and solutions.

By definition, the more abstract a thought is, the further away from reality it becomes. This is especially the case in legal circles.

I am struck by the tension between two points that are often raised when some famous African-American offers an internal critique.

On one hand the person is viilified for speaking about internal matters. Inevitably, it will be suggested that one of the root causes of the problem is the flight of the Balck middle and upper-class from "the hood".

My question for Cosby and Lee critics is how do the resolve this tension? If these people stayed in the neighborhood, would they not offer the same critique that Cosby and now Lee are offering? Would they not stress hard work and education and all of the other traits that feel are required for one to "rise above"?

I am a law student, but I also work part-time as a substitute teacher in one of the largest public school systems in our country.I work with grades K-12.99% of the students I see are African-American and Latino, and are from poor or working-class homes. I see examples of the anti-intellectualism that Cosby and Lee have brought to our attention. It's real and it is having tragic consequences.

While I have only rarely heard the "acting White" meme, academic acheivement is not valued, it is stressed by the teachers and administrators, but that's as far as it goes.

What is valued,no, misvalued,is the brand of clothing one wears, ability to rap and dance,disrespect for the same authorities that are trying to encourage them to succeed,and atheletic ability.

I can't tell you what a profound heratbreak it is to encounter daily, students who either can't read, or are reading below grade level, but can deliver a Fifty Cent song in a flawless manner.

These kids have no problem solving skills; they adopt the same attitudes as the see in hip-hop videoes. They have the capability to learn, but hate to be made to think.

When one meets their parents or care-giver, it is plain to see that it is not hip-hop alone that is to blame. This is why I find the critiques of Cosby and Lee to not only be true, but vital.

I invite everyone to become a substitute, even if for a day or two. Work with theses kids inside the classroom at the point of first impact. Go through the all of the subjects on a daily lesson plan. Do this at more than one location, and in at various grade levels.Talk to the teachers and administrators who are undervalued heroes.

I believe that most of those who critized Cosby and Lee, haven't had this type of contact, yet they offer scorn and rejection for those who insist that there are serious issues that need to be addressed internally.

So come out of the academic ivory tower and talk shows; go to the schools as a teacher, meet the aprents, and then let us see if you still feel that the barriers to progress we need most to worry about are those placed by Whites. See if you still feel that holding people...even poor people...accountable for the consequences of how they raise their children is "simplistic".

All of us have to be accountable. We have to stop with the knee-jerk emotional deflections whenever these issues are raised in public.

We have to hold accountable those who adopt an apologist position whenever someone dares to suggest that we place more emphasis on internal circumstances that we can change and control without the intervention of anyone else.

The Civil Rights Era is over. The tatics that worked during those times, are far less effective today. We cannot wait for White people to like us or concede those things we know they need to concede.

In fact, the old Black-White paradigm is dead.

We have to think globally now, but in order to succeed, we first must act locally.The situation is dire and emergent with far reaching consequences for this new century. We no longer have the luxury of abstract debate that results in maintaining the status quo, or that results only in change at the margins(or more money in certain public Black Faces...even if they are lyrically proficent or pastor megachurches)

All ideas and perspectives must be on the table.No one is without blame, beyond critique, or holds a position of supreme authenticity.

Sorry, I forgot to afix my name to the above post.

A Plea for a Lucid Dialectic
© November 4, 2005 Edward C. Hopkins Jr.

They are arguments I want to read.
Conclusions that follow from premises are what I need.
If they do not follow, then conclusions lie hollow.
And, they are fallacies, not valued intellectual deeds.

I think it is interesting that lawstudent05 and Gines criticize one simple post for not offering a roadmap to free millions from poverty; yet their responses are simply argumentation, rather than policy proposals, as well. I do not expect every thought uttered (or typed) on this website to contain an organized reform agenda. There is value in thinking and abstraction - as in lawstudent05's assertion that the "black-white paradigm is dead" That is unmistakably academic language. In fact, I just spent two hours on the subject in my Critical Race Theory class. By the way, we did consider "practical" solutions. These solutions, however, are not divorced from theory.

As for internal critiques, I value them! In fact, I have written several articles criticizing antiracist, queer, and constitutional theory. But, if someone takes issue with a point I make, I do not accuse them of being unable to deal with internal criticism. The beauty of internal critiques is that they go both ways. I hear what Lee and Cosby are saying. I just do not agree. My objections are not racial apologia. Instead, they reflect a difference in opinion. I am happy to debate the terms of my disagreement, but conversations are not advanced through name-calling and self-aggrandizement ("I know poor people....but you people are in an ivory tower").

Also, the ivory tower stereotype is nothing but that -- a stereotype. We all come from varied backgrounds. Some of us, like myself, hail from modest backgrounds, where no one really expected us to succeed. I am glad that you (lawstudent) are committed to working with students. Education is a beautiful career. Visiting schools, however, will not end discord. Bill Bennett and Jonathon Kozol have been inside many "urban" schools. They have very different policy outlooks, however.

Finally, I am not sure what leads people to say that my critique of Lee places blacks beyond critique. I have already stated that this was not my purpose -- nor does anything in my original post imply that. Ironically, some of the replies to my arguements suggest that persons from Cosby to Garvey are beyond critique. If black persons are fair game for criticism, doesn't this include Cosby, Lee, and Garvey? Or are they exempt because they know how to "keep it real"?

"What is valued,no, misvalued,is the brand of clothing one wears, ability to rap and dance,disrespect for the same authorities that are trying to encourage them to succeed,and atheletic ability.

I can't tell you what a profound heratbreak it is to encounter daily, students who either can't read, or are reading below grade level, but can deliver a Fifty Cent song in a flawless manner.

These kids have no problem solving skills; they adopt the same attitudes as the see in hip-hop videoes. They have the capability to learn, but hate to be made to think."

I'm not buying what you're selling. Wrapping this crude stereotype in decorous and compassionate language doesn't make it any less crude, or stereotypical. I prefer Cosby's crassness to your sanctimonious condescension. If this is what you think of the children that you teach then thank God you're only a substitute. I'm certain the heathen monkey children that you have such "pity" for have great success in Sunday school, in athletics (and athletic ability is not a liability; you try memorizing a football playbook sometime) and anywhere else success is expected and demanded of them. And in those institutions, they display the very skills and qualities that you say they lack. As for your lament about disrespect, did you ever stop to think that it's hard to have respect for someone who has no respect for you? If you don't believe in the children you teach, then you're in the wrong business. Stick to law.

I think it is unfortunate to reduce my comments to a mere criticism of a "lack of a road to free millions of blacks from poverty".

My impression of this discussion thread was that it concerened the reactions to the comments of, "another wealthy black male explaining black poverty in very simplistic terms",in this case, those of Spike Lee.

To that end, I offered these general points:

1.That there is a tension between two common reactions one encounters in these types of discussion and how a logical resolution could lead directly back to the very types of comments that began the controversy.

2.We need to move from abstraction to planning and action.

3.Why I believe, from personal experience in schools, that the thrust of Lee's(and Cosby's) coments about education are true.

4.Why I believe it is not particularly helpful for some to become defensive as a matter of reflex whenever this type of discussion has been initiated.

5.That I believe we are ALL accountable and responsible and that all perspectives and proposed solutions should be on the table.

I think it is also intellectually dishonest to say that one welcomes"internal critiques", and then designate such a critique as mere "argumentation".

It is also unfortunate that the following "strawmen" were created as a means to responding:

1.The commentors above did not discuss specific policy initiatives, so none should've been expected in my post.

2.I raised no expectation that, "every thought uttered (or typed) on this website to contain an organized reform agenda.".

3.No one challenge the value of thinking in abstraction, just that our community's problems demand we begin to have some conversations much deeper than we appear to have a desire for, and that lead from brain to street.

4.If one reads carefully and honestly, my response was not specific to one person.

Now with that said, I stand by all of my general points.I fail to see why those points should be controversial.

Our communities face many issues. I would like to address those that I feel we can address from within. In order to do that, we have to do something many are loath to do.We also have to stop taking personally, perspectives that differ from our own. We all want the same thing.

Perhaps after two and half years of law school I should have realized that professors aren't fond of challenge from students in the classroom...or on blogs!

Malik,

You accuse me of deploying stereotypes, yet I stated that I was speaking from actual contact with students.

You do not like what I(along with teachers and administrators) have to say, so you basically say we are all lying.

"Heathen monkey children", where did that come from?

What I did say was," They have the capability to learn, but hate to be made to think."

What part of "they have the capability to learn", did you not understand?

Did you miss the part where I said "heratbroken"? One cannot be heartbroken if one's heart is not in the mission in the first place?

"All ideas and perspectives must be on the table.No one is without blame, beyond critique, or holds a position of supreme authenticity." These are the comments of someone who is "sanctimonious " to you?

I invite you to get to know me much better before you pass such sweeping(and unsubstantiated) judgment upon me. If you did, you would have known that I do in fact understand what it is like to memorize a football playbook, basketball as well.You could've also leaned that the students like me and respect me, and request me.

It's about dialogue, not diatribe, my brother!

I'm saying you're lying, I'm saying you're caricaturing. That's what a stereotype is, a caricature. A caricature is based on a few basic real features, but it represents a distortion of the figure it portrays. And I'm saying that your representation of the children you teach bears more than a passing resemblance to every caricature of black children and black culture that I've heard for the past two decades. The phrase "heathen monkey children" was my ironic way of emphasizing the contempt I have for that caricature. You're right, my response was reactionary, and I can't judge your heart, but it was reactionary because I'm sick of the conversations about black people and the issues they have to confront always starting and ending with a caricature. Black people do it no less than white people, in fact, I think they do it more often, because they don't think it's possible to have racist attitudes towards their own selves.

That should have said "I'm NOT saying you're lying".

"Perhaps after two and half years of law school I should have realized that professors aren't fond of challenge from students in the classroom...or on blogs!" (quoting lawstudent05)

I would love to debate the terms of our analytical disagreement, but comments like the one above really do not plant the seeds for constructive discourse. Anyone familiar with my scholarship (try Westlaw) knows that my response to your post would have been the same whether your moniker was "lawstudent05" or "law_dean_omnipotent." Scholarship and argumentation transcend hierarchy and labels (at least for me). I welcome discourse and even disagreement -- which is why some of my biggest student fans have been the most politically conservative students. You suggest that I was demeaning your post by saying it was just "argumentation." On the contrary; as I said earlier, there is value in thought divorced from policy.

Carry on.

Re: Ri's comments--

Do you have a link for the data on middle-class black performance in schools, and on standardized tests? This is a significant point, but I've never seen the data on black high-school performance broken down by income level. Same for SAT scores. If you can provide a link, I'd be grateful.

Thanks.

Wow, still no comments here? What a shame, such an interesting topic, and well written.Ok then, I'll offer a comment in the intrest of not leting the eefort go to waste.

"...and am struggling to place the popularity of these technologies in the context of what I see as an ominous resurgence of biological definitions of race."

Perhaps the reason why you are struggling to place genetic testing where you have placed it is because it doesn't belong there?

Is it not perhaps an innate curiosity to want to understand the history of one's family tree? I love the stories my greatgrandparents, and grandparents loved to tell. I believe I am not alone is this sentiment.

African-American's were brought to this land in a depraved manner.Our family histories have been truncated by a savage system.Our languages and cultures were severely diluted and we were given slave names. Genetic testing offers a way to reconnect, not in name, but to place.

We know that most of us came from the western part of Africa. Many want to know what country, and if possible, what tribe; and knowledge is power.

The major difference between genetic testing and going through the family pictures is, genetic testing doesn't offer the rich context.

Finally, I would argue that genetic testing is omnious only in that it will force us to challenge how we look at race much like the decoding of the human genome has done.

That reexamination will include "surprises" to every race.How wonderfully disrupting it will be to discover that some Whites are not as "white" as they had believed!

It seems to me that that we must embrace technology and the changes it will bring.This is an opportunity to get our students more interested in science. What better way to intrest them than with something directly relevant to their lives?

Perhaps those who stand to lose anything about the revelations of genetic testing are those who have a vested interest in keeping the conception of "race" as it is understood today.

How ironic that the idiot who said on CNN that he thinks it's plausible and worth investigation that the Fed Gov't blew up the levees in New Orleans wants educated blacks to be icons. I would tend to agree (though not exclusively -- as in the case of Rosa Parks and many others), but Spike Lee is hardly intellectual and needs to take Critical Thinking 101.

With regards to the idea of “acting white” as being analogous to being nerd is interesting and I can see that. However, there is something profoundly visceral and painful when you have your parents and adults that you look up to saying that, which I found to be a true experience among many of my friends. I personally would like a diversity of experiences reflecting African Americans, partly because I get tired of the same stuff. I think about why Zora Neal Hurston is so significant to this discussion. During the time of the Harlem Renaissance, there were a lot of white patrons wanted black people to export a homogenous package of what “black” is for them to consume. Often they would want artists to paint African drummers, and write about the jazz scene, even Richard Wright criticized Zora Neal Hurston because her novel Their Eyes Where Watching God was not black enough. But what her novel captured in showing a love story between to black individuals was that we love. I think as artists we should be able to be free to explore and show all aspects of who we are. But I think that we have thoroughly explored these aspects, so I will move on.

I have a reflection that may be a bit straying off topic but may provide insight in terms of exploring solutions. I think another aspect that we can consider is the divisions within the African American population. I noticed this more when I moved from California to the East coast where there seems to be a greater degree of African American ethnic diversity. We are divided by religion, politics, class, nationality, language and even to our shades. I say this with reference to a comment regarding structural racism and the lack of historical connections because I think it is interesting to look at the connections that different immigrant and black immigrant populations have. When I look at the statistics of who is attending colleges, there is a greater percentage of 1st-3rd generation immigrant blacks that there are “native blacks”. I think that it would be interesting to explore why. Of course there is a significant difference in history, and one has to factor that often successful immigrant black families were successful and of a high class in their own countries, but I also see a lot of unity, teamwork and building on connections.

The American ideal of individualism and “pulling oneself by their own bootstraps” is a very destructive. I think as many have touched on this before, that drawing on our resources and providing connections and support is crucial.

It terms of directly addressing how to effectively cultivate the intellectual capital of our youth, this is of course very complex. I have been in situations where I have moved and automatically placed in a remedial class, despite state test scores. I have read countless articles about the role of expectations and the achievement of students overall and have heard stories from black teachers about how low white teachers think of their students. There was an experiment where cosmetic surgery was done of babies born with down syndrome to make them look like “normal” babies for the first few years and their IQs were significantly higher then their counterparts without the surgery. There are similar tests where a principle would go into one room and tell the teacher that she has an honors class and these are top notch children, and another room and tells the teacher “these are the problem children” and the performance of the students and how much parent involvement the teacher sought was drastically different. How does this translate to our school system with the majority of teachers and people in administration are white teaching a majority of Black and Latino children? If it is not communicated to our youth that education is important and that they can excel in it, if they are not given the resources and if they are made to think that they are dumb, they will seek alternatives to find respect from their peers and seek other things that are valued.

I agree with Spike Lee and Bill Cosby.
Whining about racism is not going to change the situation. Racism has been here and it will always be here. The situation will only change with ourselves. Each individual has to look at themselves and their behavior and raise their standards.

"I agree with Spike Lee and Bill Cosby.
Whining about racism is not going to change the situation. Racism has been here and it will always be here. The situation will only change with ourselves. Each individual has to look at themselves and their behavior and raise their standards." (quoting alex@nyls)

I recall hearing the statement "freedom is not given, it is taken." I think this is true. But I also strongly believe that speaking honestly and openly about this nation's injustice is not "whining; instead, it is part of the process of creating justice.

I also doubt whether individual responsiblity alone will bring about racial and class equality. Again, if you doubt this, look at the toils of the working poor and the middle class, whose real income has plunged drastically over the last 5 decades. Those individuals are working strenuously, but are becoming poorer, according to an overwhelming amount of data. These classes are not exclusively black -- but cut across race.

Also, I encourage all of the "individual responsibility" proponents to cite examples in American history or elsewhere in which large classes of "individuals" have dismantled their subordination without any external systems of support. This demand seems only relevant to poor persons of color. But I do not know of any historical examples where subordination has been disestablished by individual efforts alone. Individual effort is very important; if people do not access opportunities for advancement, then change cannot occur. I think we have differing opinions, however, on the extent to which opportunity is distributed in our society. Individualism can only go so far in a limited opportunity structure.

Also, there is a nasty unstated assumption in these arguments which implies that whites have succeeded on merit alone. If racism cannot prevent persons of color from achieving economic and social advancement, then racism probably has not allowed whites to achieve their elevated social and economic position. Whites must be very responsible, relative to persons of color, because they occupy to top of the economic food chain. If racism is a neutral force in society, then whites must have achieved their "greatness" based on their own merit. I have seen no data to support this claim. In fact, I am sure that Bill Cosby probably knows some "irresponsible" white wealthy individuals. Wealth, however, cushions people against wrongful activity. Ex-offender Martha Stewart (Cosby's good friend) made hundreds of millions of dollars while in prison and is now the star of two television programs. Is she being responsible or benefitting from her racial and class status (or both)?

I had an experience some years ago that has haunted me ever since. While on duty at the University of Utah Medical Center Labor and Delivery Unit, I overheard one of our medical students speaking. This beautiful black woman had the most incredible speaking voice. She spoke in precise, gramatically perfect sentences with a diction that was mesmerizing. Later, when we spoke to each other to discuss a patient, I commented that listening to her reminded me of Barbara Jordan. For those who are too young to remember, Barbara Jordan was a Texas congresswoman who came to notice during the Nixon impeachment hearings because of her remarkable speaking skills and intellect.

I had expected that the student would accept the comment as a high compliment, but she reacted by flashing an angry look at me. I was too astonished to say anything at the time, but later asked her if I had offended her in some way. She said that I wouldn't understand. I said that I really would like to understand. She related that her speech has "always been a problem." She said that her father was a sucessful dentist and her mother was a college English professor. Her mother loved the English language and classic literature. Her earliest memories were of her mother reading classical literature to her and drilling her on grammar and diction. She could read by the time she was five.

When she started formal school, she was immediately mocked and derided by other black children who accused her of putting on airs and trying to be white. When she tried to imitate the speech of her classmates, she could never quite get it right which only invited more ridicule. When her mother heard her trying to speak in black colloquial speech, she said "I taught you standard English and you will speak standard English. I will not have that gutter language in my home."

The taunts only got worse in high school where she was called "Oreo." In college she as called a "race traitor" and "inauthentic."

She said that her entire life, whites like me had praised her speech and diction while she has gotten nothing but grief about it from blacks.

I have never forgotten the look of pain in her eyes as she told her story. Could someone here explain why this would happen to a black women?

Read the messages here carefully and you will find the answer.Read the messages of the 2 or 3 people who had a different point of view than the rest.Then read the responses to those messages.They got hammered, sometimes it was with upfront indignant language, other times with more backdoor high-minded language. The point is, and the answer to your question is, that there is an expected range of behavior, thought,interests, and beliefs, from which blacks are expected to choose. Anyone stepping outside that range faces scorn and there is no shortage of enforcers.That is behind your friend's angst.

I commend to you the book "The End of Blackness" by Debra Dickerson as an excellent exposition of this phenomenon.

KirkinCal - You're speaking in code. Care to explain?

David - You raise in interesting issue about "standard" and "non-standard" speech. Perhaps more accurate terms would be "stigmatized" and "non-stigmatized" dialects. Here's what I've observed and experienced. Some black folks do in fact stigmatize black speakers who sound "white" not for their eloquence and fluency, but for their cadence and intonation. For example, I feel certain that few black people would stigmatize the speech of T.D. Jakes, who is an eloquent and articulate speaker by any measure, but many black people would stigmatize the speech of say, Aisha Tyler, the erstwhile hostess of Talk Soup. The difference is, some black people are disturbed by what they perceive to be a conscious imitation of a white style of speech, not by the fluency and eloquence of the speech itself.

It's interesting that whites generally don't perceive themselves as having a particular style of speech, but there are certainly usages and inflections that mark speech as distinctively white, and these "markers" if you will, are unrelated to grammar and fluency.

But to return to the point at hand, I think the reason that black people take exception to blacks imitating a white style, (which, again, is unrelated to fluency) is because they perceive it as an endorsement of the negative value judgments that are placed upon black dialects. One might argue that the "value judgment" is merely a candid assessment of a lack of English proficiency, but consider this. When an Irish person seasons his speech with some down home flavor it's often called "a lovely brogue". When a black person does the same, it's called "ghetto".

Another point that is often emphasized with regard to black speech is that it constitutes an obstacle to professional success. An acquaintance of mine recently made in interesting point about this assertion. How is it that people fresh off the boat who can't speak a lick of English, consistently become successful entrepreneurs in America, if poor English in and of itself is such a huge obstacle to professional achievement?

Just my two cents for now.

Re: Frank's question to Ricardo (black achievement)

Frank,
Here is at least a small lead. I regret that I do not have any statistics to pass on to you but read this quote and check out the sources:

The gap [black - white] cannot be easily explained. Contrary to what might be expected, Meredith Phillips and her colleagues suggest in The Black-White Test Score Gap that parents' income differences by themselves have almost no effect on children's test scores. Rather, they urge us to look further back in a child's family tree.

Whether or not a parent follows the middle-class parenting practices that are most likely to increase a child's chances of doing well in school--having books at home, reading to the child, taking her on a trip to the museum, for example--depends on how the parent was raised. Even when black and white parents have the same test scores, educational attainment, income, wealth and number of children, black parents are more likely to have grown up in less-advantaged households. So part of the explanation for the gap may lay in the widespread discrimination in housing, education and employment that African American children's grandparents faced. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/etc/gap.html

This broadens the discussion and illustrates that blacks whether poor or affluent, have the same problems. Moreover, it bolsters the argument that much of the origin is strcutural racism. Yet, is also demonstrates that there are tangible things that all blacks can do irrespective of income to help the children succeed.

Hello, this is my first time on this blog. My opinion is two fold. On the one hand, Bill Cosby and Spike Lee are correct. Ignorance is glorified throughout pop culture, hip-hop in particular.

Also, many middle class (baby boomer) Black parents did not effective pass down strong values to their children. Most of us know stories of pampered kids in Jack 'n Jill who are now on strung out on drugs or in and out of jail.

Having said that, we must avoid falling into the white male power structure's ideology of linking "success" with morality. For the most part, the African Americans we are talking about are generally poor and working class. They're not so much reflecting the "hip-hop culture", but coveting what they see. If you're mom has 6th grade education and you live in the projects, you're probably not going to do very well in school. Its a cyclical state of poverty that we are seeing. And we're blaming the poor and undereducated for being and acting like poor, uneducated people. And we're blaming them on their conditions.

And on hte subject of rappers and negative media imagery in hip-hop, remember that the main market for hip-hop now is not working class Black and Latino children in the inner city. Its actually bored middle class white kids in the suburbs. Hip-hop has become the new heavy metal.

Therefore, business savvy entertainers (I dare not call them true hip-hop artists) are going to cater to their audience. And their audience are white folks looking for a modern day minstrel gangsta. As one rapper once said, you're gonna tell me not be a n**, I gotta be a n**, that's how I pay the bills." In other words, they're selling a product, and in a consumer economy and they give the people what they want. They're clowns and are getting well paid for it.

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