Go "natural" if you want to, but then don't blame the brothas when they pull a Taye Diggs on you. Was Madame C.J. Walker's work all for naught?!

I have to admit that for long time now it really bothers me to see black women with straightened hair. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ABOUT THOSE WEAVES! I LOVE to see a sisiter with their natural hair, afros, dreads, twists, whatever.

As for overweight sisters that's another matter. Where I live I see WAY TOO MANY (and especially young) black women who are simply too fat. It didn't use to be like this. We're eating ourselves to an early grave.

I have to admit that for long time now it really bothers me to see black women with straightened hair. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ABOUT THOSE WEAVES! I LOVE to see a sister with their natural hair, afros, dreads, twists, whatever.

As for overweight sisters that's another matter. Where I live I see WAY TOO MANY (and especially young) black women who are simply too fat. It didn't use to be like this. We're eating ourselves to an early grave.

Sorry for the double posting. That was an accident...

It won't be long before someone says that straightening hair isn't necessarily tantamount to self-hatred/wanting to "look white." They'll say that straightening their hair makes it more manageable.

This is not really a white beauty issue.

There have been studies done all over the world that men everywhere prefer women lighter than them...even before contact with Europeans.

In a place where everyone in a black Africa, light is not what we consider light in America.

So if you throw a nonblack woman into the mix the black women is at a disadvantage, because the black woman can not possibly be that light (unless she has significant nonblack ancestory).

I believe the same thing goes for hair. In Africa, in isolation it was not a big deal.

Here it is, because most men prefer longer hair on women because it looks more "fit" healthier and younger...which is attributed with femininity...basically looks more fertile.

Hair is not the end all and be all though. Black women have other attributes other races of women do not, so focusing on hair is kind of worthless since black women will always be at a disadvantage. Focus on what you have advantages on.

As far as the office place...I think it depends on where you live, the concentration of blacks, and what the whtie people are used to. Here in DC it is not an issue to have natural hair for black women...maybe in some areas.

in the grand scheme of things it is better to be bald headed than fat and nasty...

two relaxed says: the reason why you get your hair relaxed is so that you can work out and not worry about sweating out your 'do...
natural says: on those days when i want to wear my hair straight, i am more hesistant to work out and sweat the curls back in... i would definitely argue that of our two factions, i am the one least likely to work out with straight hair... (now when my hair is in all its curly glory, that's when i put in the most time at the gym, equaling the time put in by my two relaxed friends)
we all say: fat women are fat b/c they stay at home and eat snacks, while the rest of us are at the gym working it out... it has nothing to do with their coifs... also, might we note, that you can lose weight without ever going to the gym by merely cutting back on your calories... we don't care what your hair 'do is or whatever look you are sporting on top of your head, that has nothing to do with your penchant for french fries.

*disclaimer: all three of us are active gym-goers and healthy members of the black community

Can someone explain to me why it is that brothas can grow their hair out longer than the sistas? Sumpin' ain't right here.

As a person who had a larger-than-Angela-Davis' sized afro in college and now sports long, permed hair, I don't really get the relationship between going to the gym and the relaxed/natural argument.

For me, the decision to relax was based on the employment issues mentioned. Because my hair is so difficult--you have NO idea how many hairdressers can't do my hair--I wasn't able to keep it natural and stylish without going to dreadlocks, which didn't interest me. Even with a relaxer, I've only found ONE hairdresser who can get my hair straight!

When my hair was natural, it would take about 6 hours for me to wash and style it. NOT FUN. I don't care how much smack people talk about relaxers, most of them don't have hair like mine. People whose hair actually curls who have the nerve to imply that the rest of us are self-haters deserve a beat-down.

I love my hair. I did a post about it. Peace.

I cannot stand that "wet pigeon-head" look these sistas are sporting. It's the fantasia look she had on american idol. everytime I see it i think of that rap song "chickenhead" and wish these sisters stop putting that mousse up in their hair and just go natural.

Hmmm...I don't know how folks on this board are defining natural, but have you seen the hairdos of the sistas in Africa? Usually their hair is not much longer than a grain of rice! If that's natural, then give me the SUPER/UN-natural any day.

Ras you'll go out your way to defend whites/ white beauty.

Ras said: There have been studies done all over the world that men everywhere prefer women lighter than them...even before contact with Europeans."

Debbie: this is FALSE. Studies prove that different culture preferred their females looking different ways. in fact, in China, they preferred dark skinned females way back in the days over pale skinned females.

So if you throw a nonblack woman into the mix the black women is at a disadvantage, because the black woman can not possibly be that light (unless she has significant nonblack ancestory).

I believe the same thing goes for hair. In Africa, in isolation it was not a big deal.

Ras said: "Here it is, because most men prefer longer hair on women because it looks more "fit" healthier and younger...which is attributed with femininity...basically looks more fertile."

Debbie: Studies show that most men prefer females who resemble them culturally. Only recently when Europeans gained prominence over the world globe did (or it seems like) majority of cultures prefer light/ European females.

Ras said: "Hair is not the end all and be all though. Black women have other attributes other races of women do not, so focusing on hair is kind of worthless since black women will always be at a disadvantage. Focus on what you have advantages on."

Debbie: Disadvantage? Sort of like when having flat butts/ skinny figures (is this more fertile?) were a disadvantage, but became popular since it was viewed as more "feminine" (of course according to European standards). so no- black women will only be at a disadvantage when European values are held up.

As far as East Asia, you are dead wrong. I have lived in China (Shanghai) and Japan (Tokyo), 1999 and 2001 respectively.

They have valued pale women for thousands of years, because they looked upper-class, meaning they did not work outside. Dark women were brownish-yellow because they worked the fields.

Anyway it does not matter...that is a minor point. The major point is unless you plan to start an all black american nation or somehow lift black people (world wide up) to a higher standard than white people...the status quo will not change, people want to look like and imitate those they view as successful. That is obviously not black people on a global scale.

Asso I disagree that having a flat butt and being skinny is a white thing...so what being fat is a black thing?

Many East African women have flat butts and are very thin, I know I live in DC, that has a large Ethiopian/Somali community...so all blacks in the world don't look like West African blacks.

Even the West African blacks I see are not as fat as black American women...not even close, unless they are very old.

Being fit and in shape is not a racial thing. It is a human thing. Given a choice most men are not going to prefer a fat obese woman to a moderately thin woman. Sorry...

Black women obviously do have advantage in body shape other women do not. They tend to have a greater chance of having an "hour glass" shape. That is a good thing.

As I said hair is not everything. Every race of women tries to change something about themselves. White women get perms on a regular basis to curl their hair and very pale white women often tan.

Asian women try to perm their hair (to curl it) and sometimes get eye surgery...

No one is perfect.

I was wondering if wearing our hair natural, and not particularly styled any one way or other, simply as kinky, curly, coiled as it can be, simply makes White people uncomfortable?

(Even more so than the circular and never-ending debate over whether Sisters seek to adopt a European aesthetic because Sisters are presumed to be self-hating, is my rumination in this regard.)

Is is too conspicuous a notice of the presence of 'otherness,' or merely that offensive Blackness, which is assumed to be, at its heart, ready to rise up and smite all the babes in their beds at night?

Ras said: "Asso I disagree that having a flat butt and being skinny is a white thing...so what being fat is a black thing?"

Debbie: I said "skinny" not the right size,- and yes there is a difference. Skinny is what run-way models are- this is not healthy. And no, being fat is not a black thing. Read what I wrote- you mentioned long hair dealing with "femininity...basically looks more?" What the heal are you talking about? Thickness (curvy/ big women) has historically been linked to femininity/ fertility.

Ras said: "Many East African women have flat butts and are very thin, I know I live in DC, that has a large Ethiopian/Somali community...so all blacks in the world don't look like West African blacks."

Debbie: Flat butts? What East African girls are you looking at? I live in DC too.

Ras said: "Even the West African blacks I see are not as fat as black American women...not even close, unless they are very old."

Debbie: Did I say this? No.

Ras said: "Being fit and in shape is not a racial thing. It is a human thing."

Debbie: did I say this? No.

Ras said: "Given a choice most men are not going to prefer a fat obese woman to a moderately thin woman. Sorry..."

Debbie: Did I say this? No. Skinny does not equate to moderately thin.

Ras said: No one is perfect.

Debbie: Exactly! So your b*llshit about "men everywhere prefer women lighter than them...even before contact with Europeans"... "most men prefer longer hair on women because it looks more "fit" healthier and younger...which is attributed with femininity...basically looks more fertile"… "since black women will always be at a disadvantage" is b*llshit.

Ras
Copied and Pasted:

Pre-modern Asian ideas on 'race'
Apparently, the white-is-right attitude so prevalent today was not always the norm.
Marco Polo reports on the Dravidians of South India:
"It is a fact that in this country when a child is born they anoint him once a week with oil of sesame, and this makes him grow much darker than when he was born. For I assure you that the darkest man is here the most highly esteemed and considered better than those who are not so dark. Let me add that in very truth these people portray and depict their gods and idols black and their devils white as snow. For they say that God and all the saints are black and the devils are all white..." 9

In the Chinese record Nan Tsi Chou, a Chinese traveler to Southeast Asia wrote that the local people "consider black the most beautiful." 10 Although modern Filipinos prize the 'high-nosed', oval-faced European-blooded individual as beautiful, some even going as far as to pinch their children's nose bridges in the hopes of achieving a higher nose, this has not always been the case. Prior to European colonization, the ancient Visayans of the Philippines considered the very opposite of high noses and oval faces handsome. Visayans, as well as some other Austronesian peoples in Malaysia and Indonesia, compressed their babies' skulls to achieve broad faces with receding foreheads and flat noses . The Minahasa of Celebes even restricted binding with a forehead board to the nobility.11
Old Chinese views on Caucasians:
By traditional Chinese opera conventions, a black face is considered nobler. Actors wear masks that denote the character's qualities. A pre-dominantly black face indicates courage, righteousness and incorruptibility. A pre-dominantly white face indicates craftiness, deceit and knavery. Ming Dynasty China records even state that Caucasians, especially blondes, are physically unattractive:
Huihui are shaggy with big noses, and Qipchags have light hair and blue eyes. Their appearance is vile and peculiar, so there are those (Chinese) who do not wish to marry them. 12
This distaste for blondes is a stark contrast to the worship of European standards of beauty so prevalent among modern Asians. Today's Chinese boast about their Caucasian sons-in-law or husbands. Instead of attributing the worship of whites, or the vilification of whites, for that matter, to "natural" percaptions of racial hierarchy, it should be remembered that standards of beauty shift through time.
Marco Polo (translated by R Latham), The Travels of Marco Polo (Middlesex, Penguin Books, 1982), p. 276
James E. Brunson, "Unexpected Faces in Early Asia", African Presence in Early Asia, ed. Runoko Rashidi, p. 221
William Henry Scott, Barangay: Sixteenth Century Philippine Culture and Society, p. 22
Jonathan Lipman, Familiar Strangers: A History of Muslims in Northwest China, p. 38

So yes, dark skin was once valued in certain Asian countries prior to Europeans arrival.

Debbie:

1) First what site did you get this from?

2) Dravidians are not all Indians. They are a minority of Indians in the South. Being that Dravidians were constantly at war with ligher Northern Indo-European speaking people it is not shocking they differentiated themselves by skin color (Dravidians being darker on average to this day than Indians in Central and Northern India).

3) Southeast Asia is not East Asia, this is why the Chinese guy was suprised that "dark skin" was prized, because in his country it was not. Check your geography.

4)Being caucasion is not equal to being light skin.

Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans thought whites had bit noses, they were hairy, had hair and eyes the color of demons, and smelled bad.

This has nothing to do with length of hair or skin color.

You basically only identified dark skin being liked in Southern India and some unknown Southeast Asian country, I seriously doubt all the myriad of ethnic groups in SE Asia found the same things attractive...once again I would like to know where this Chinese man travelled, what kingdom.

As far as the Filipines...oval faces and flat noses have nothing to do with skin color or hair length.

5) Black face is symbolic in Chinese opera of an emotion it is an abstraction that does not mean Chinese prefered men to be black skinned off stage.

Also I would say that in East Asian light skin is prized for women (has been since forever) not for men, for men it does not matter. In fact a man with a tan is considered more masculine (similar to European thinking) because it shows he "works".

Chinese have a very ancient saying:

yi bai yi bai chou (one white covers one thousand uglies) basically...a white skinned girl is the prettiest in a group of girls that are all generally ugly...the white skin makes up for it. This is a very old saying in Chinese.

6)If light skin color was so unattractive to the majority of Asians (which it was not) it would not have been selected for genetically in North East Asia and North India.

The gene that makes Asians skin light is not the same gene that makes white's have light skin, therefore this is not due to some ancient interracial relations with whites, it was strongly selected for independently, which means someone liked it or it would not exist today.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/12/skin-color-gene-in-humans-and-fish.html

You really don't know what you are talking about, I lived in the region for awhile...you are taking historical things out of context because you don't understnad the context and are likely getting this from some afrocentric pseudo-history site. My wife is from the region as well...I think she knows her culture.

Debbie:

I think you should read this study:

Journal of Ethnic Studies years ago that though Asian people admired the light skin of Europeans, they were less impressed by blonde hair and blue eyes [1]. In fact, the people of east Asia often portrayed people with red hair and green eyes as witches and trolls (European hair is as red as Chinese skin is
yellow remember). The Chinese did have some knowledge of people with European features, the barbarians of Eastern Turkestan were often portrayed as having Western features and red hair (some of them still do even after centuries of intermarriage with Mongoloid people from the north and east). My
own personal experience from my cultural background (South Asian Muslim) is similar in that though the light skin of Europeans is admired, the blonde hair and blue eyes are considered less interesting. It seems to me that not having black hair is associated more with sickliness than anything else [2]. This implies that the peacock effect is not at play, that people tend to prefer those who are lighter than the mean of their population, but not as light as can be (makes sense, otherwise albinos would all be supermodels).

This is as true today as it was in the past. Asians admired light skin but nothing else, not the big noses, blue eyes, or blond hair.

Lets look at some pictures from the past.

http://www.artgallery.com.ua/pics/sp/inet/011.jpg

Geisha in Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geisha

Always wore white face, seen as a symbol of beauty, class, sophistication, long before white Europeans ever came to Japan.

During the Han and Tang Dynasty in China:

Long before any significant European contact to China:

http://www.beijing-tours.com/han-dynasty-2.htm

http://www.chinaculture.org/img/2003-09/24/cfu11_01.jpg

from Tang Dynasty.

June 18, 618: June 4, 907

Han Dynasty.

206 BC:AD 220

Now I don't know what you see, but I don't see any "black" people walking around.

Remember this is hundreds of years apart, dress is different, hair style is different. Skin color. Same.

Lets look at some pictures from the past.

www.artgallery.com.ua/pics/sp/inet/011.jpg

Geisha in Japan.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geisha

Always wore white face, seen as a symbol of beauty, class, sophistication, long before white Europeans ever came to Japan.

During the Han and Tang Dynasty in China:

Long before any significant European contact to China:

www.beijing-tours.com/han-dynasty-2.htm

www.chinaculture.org/img/2003-09/24/cfu11_01.jpg

From the Tang Dynasty.

June 18, 618: June 4, 907

The Han Dynasty.

206 BC:AD 220

Now I don't know what you see, but I don't see any "black" people walking around.

Remember this is hundreds of years apart, dress is different, and hair style is different. Skin color is the same.

Oh as far as India. You do know the Tajmahal right?

It was created in honor of Mumtaz Mahal, an Emporess of India. She was considered one of the most beautiful women in India. This is before European colonization of India.

She looked like this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumtaz_Mahal

She was not "black".

In fact if you look at modern Indians..who does she look more like...these dark Indian women.

www.femalehealth.com/CountryProfiles/india/india_images/India%20-%202%20women.jpg

or

www.nationsonline.org/gallery/women_from_india.jpg

Ras asked: 1) First what site did you get this from?

Debbie: I got it from a site named color q; however now I cannot find- I'll post it for you when I find the site. Nonetheless focus on the sources which are more legit.

Ras said: "Dravidians are not all Indians.... They are a minority of Indians in the South...
Southeast Asia is not East Asia... "

Debbie: Are you blind? The article mentions Filipinos, peoples in Malaysia and Indonesia, and Chinese people.

Ras said: "Being caucasion is not equal to being light skin."

Debbie: duhhh! You mentioned: "There have been studies done all over the world that men everywhere prefer women lighter than them...even before contact with Europeans." This is a LIE- there were some cultures that preferred light skin and some dark-skin; soon many of these cultures preferred light/ white features after contact with Europeans- including the Chinese.

Ras said: "This has nothing to do with length of hair or skin color."

Debbie: No this contradicts your point about feminine beauty equating light skin.

Ras said: "You basically only identified dark skin being liked in Southern India and some unknown Southeast Asian country, I seriously doubt all the myriad of ethnic groups in SE Asia found the same things attractive...once again I would like to know where this Chinese man travelled, what kingdom."

Debbie: READ. the article mentions Chinese people and Fillipinos. But yes I agree with this point you made: "I seriously doubt all the myriad of ethnic groups in SE Asia found the same things attractive." Yes indeed, some culture liked dark skin others liked light skin.

Ras said: "Black face is symbolic in Chinese opera of an emotion it is an abstraction that does not mean Chinese prefered men to be black skinned off stage."

Debbie: Article mentioned: "By traditional Chinese opera conventions, a black face is considered nobler. Actors wear masks that denote the character's qualities. A pre-dominantly black face indicates courage, righteousness and incorruptibility. A pre-dominantly white face indicates craftiness, deceit and knavery. Ming Dynasty China records even state that Caucasians, especially blondes, are physically unattractive." It can be inferred that black faces were seen as more attractive- why do you fail to see this point?

Ras said: "Also I would say that in East Asian light skin is prized for women (has been since forever) not for men, for men it does not matter. In fact a man with a tan is considered more masculine (similar to European thinking) because it shows he "works"."

Debbie: I'm not talking about the present, I'm talking about the past. You mentioned that light skin has always been prized prior to European arrival- this is a LIE.

Ras said: "Chinese have a very ancient saying:

yi bai yi bai chou (one white covers one thousand uglies)"

Debbie: Evidently, this was not always the case.

Ras said: "If light skin color was so unattractive to the majority of Asians (which it was not) it would not have been selected for genetically in North East Asia and North India."

Debbie: ? I have no idea what you're talking about because I know for a fact that the majority of Indians are dark skinned- northern Indians tend to be lighter than southern India due to climate difference.

Ras said: "The gene that makes Asians skin light is not the same gene that makes white's have light skin, therefore this is not due to some ancient interracial relations with whites, it was strongly selected for independently, which means someone liked it or it would not exist today."

Debbie: ?

Ras said: "You really don't know what you are talking about, I lived in the region for awhile...you are taking historical things out of context because you don't understnad the context and are likely getting this from some afrocentric pseudo-history site. My wife is from the region as well...I think she knows her culture."

Debbie: From some "afrocentric pseudo-history site"- look at the source. You simply choose to ignore facts to mask your ignorance. Every time you talk you're trying to argue something new. Read your original post, and read my response- please stop with the red herring bs.

Ras said:"...This is as true today as it was in the past. Asians admired light skin but nothing else, not the big noses, blue eyes, or blond hair."

Debbie: So I suppose you're choosing to look at one source while ignoring the others.

Then to illustrate how ignorant you are, you post sites of "ancient" looking Chinese girls. Really, I see ancient paintings of white Jesus and Virgin Mary- I'm I too believe that that is how they looked?

And also - who was talking about Japan- Japan and China are not the same country fool. Furthermore the article focuses on the Ming Dynasty of China.

Ras said: "It was created in honor of Mumtaz Mahal, an Emporess of India. She was considered one of the most beautiful women in India. This is before European colonization of India."

Debbie: It's a painting for crisis sakes!!!

Let me re-cap what we were originally discussing about:

Ras said: "Asso I disagree that having a flat butt and being skinny is a white thing...so what being fat is a black thing?"

Debbie: I said "skinny" not the right size,- and yes there is a difference. Skinny is what run-way models are- this is not healthy. And no, being fat is not a black thing. Read what I wrote- you mentioned long hair dealing with "femininity...basically looks more?" What the heal are you talking about? Thickness (curvy/ big women) has historically been linked to femininity/ fertility.

Ras said: No one is perfect.

Debbie: Exactly! So your b*llshit about "men everywhere prefer women lighter than them...even before contact with Europeans"... "most men prefer longer hair on women because it looks more "fit" healthier and younger...which is attributed with femininity...basically looks more fertile"… "since black women will always be at a disadvantage" is b*llshit.

Daayuum Debbie, I'm impressed! Didn't know you had that kind of fire in you. Keep up the good work.

Debbie:

I never said blond hair and big noses were universally attractive. I said men prefered women of lighter skin and long hair has long been though attractive.

As far as Japan...I said East Asia...Japan is in Easat Asia, as is China and Korea.

The Ming Dynasty of China was not older than the Han or the Tang...

The Ming was the next to the last dynasty of China...so in relatively recent times (considering China is 5,000 years old).

you want to see Ming Dynasty pictures:

Indians in the South are not darker due to climate...do you know anything about the history of India? Indians in the South are Dravidian.

Indians in the North are a mix of various Aryan and Turkish invaders who mixed with the Dravidians. Most of the Ayrans came from ancient Persia and Afganistan. They were lighter than Dravidians, who are genetically more related to Aboriginees and Negritos in SouthEast Asia/South Pacific.

Try reading about Indian people:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_people

It is obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.

you wrote this:

"n the Chinese record Nan Tsi Chou, a Chinese traveler to Southeast Asia wrote that the local people "consider black the most beautiful." 10 Although modern Filipinos prize the 'high-nosed', oval-faced European-blooded individual as beautiful, some even going as far as to pinch their children's nose bridges in the hopes of achieving a higher nose, this has not always been the case. Prior to European colonization, the ancient Visayans of the Philippines considered the very opposite of high noses and oval faces handsome. Visayans, as well as some other Austronesian peoples in Malaysia and Indonesia, compressed their babies' skulls to achieve broad faces with receding foreheads and flat noses . The Minahasa of Celebes even restricted bin"

That has nothing to do with skin color or hair. Once again light skin is not synonomous with white people from Europe. Northeast Asians obviously had light skin and have it today. It did not come from white people, because the genes that make NE Asians light are different from those in Europeans. I have provided very ancient paintings of women fromt he period drawn by people in the region.

Pictures of White jesus were not drawn by Middle Eastern people they were drawn by Europeans, most of which had never been to Israel or any place else in the MIddle East, big difference.

The painting I showed of the Indian Empress was also drawn by Indians of the time period, not by whites Europeans or in modern times. do you think the Emporer would allow people to draw his wife in an ugly way if she was considered beautiful????? That is illogical.

Oh going back to Ming China, the Dynasty after Mongol rule...

This is a painting during the Ming Dynasty by Tang Yan.

http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/china/clothing/pictures/tangyinming.jpg

Most Chinese women are not this light, so it is obvious they had make up on. :-O

This was 1368 to 1646

I now I have shown you all the way from 900 BC into the common era and up until 17th century and all the women's dresses change, hair is always long, skin always lilly white. Hmmm...I think I see a pattern.

So let me get this straight. You are saying this afro-centric site knows more about what the people of these areas looked like than people from the time period who drew pictures of their own people. LOL

That is ridiculous.

You are basically saying second hand interpretation and remarks by European travelers are more accurate than first hand data from the people in question from the time period. Totally ridiculous.

You have miserably failed to prove your case.

oh and a study:

"Skin color sexual dimorphism in humans involves the lighter pigmentation of females compared to males. An explanation for this phenomenon is that males tend to favor lighter-skinned females. A prediction of this theory is that sexual dimorphism should be more pronounced in regions of the world with low solar radiation. Skin color is under selection close to the equator, with such populations being constrained to be dark in order to shield themselves from bright sunlight. Conversely, in areas of low solar radiation, this selective constraint should be relaxed, and as a result, the postulated preference for light skin in women would become more important. This would manifest itself as greater sexual dimorphism in such regions.

The authors of this paper tested this prediction directly, by comparing skin reflectance date of adult men and women from different populations with latitude, discovering that sexual dimorphism is not correlated with latitude. Hence, one of the predictions of the "sexual selection hypothesis" is not supported by the data.

From the conclusions of the paper:

We tested the hypothesis that human sexual dimorphism
of skin color should be positively correlated with
distance from the equator, a proposal generated by the
sexual selection hypothesis. We found no support for that
proposition. Before this paper was written, the sexual
selection hypothesis was based on stated male-preference
data in a number of human groups. Here, we focused on
the actual pattern of sexual dimorphism. We report that
the distribution of human sexual dimorphism in relation
to latitude is not that which is predicted by the sexual
selection hypothesis. According to that hypothesis, in
areas of low solar radiation, there should be greater sexual
dimorphism, because sexual selection for lighter
females is not counterbalanced by natural selection
for dark skin. Our data analysis does not support this prediction."

dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/05/skin-color-sexual-dimorphism-in-humans.html

Basically these scientist were trying to figure out why men tend to be darker on average than women of the same ethnic group. The study they did failed to confirm why this is, but the fact still remains it is the case.

This is obviously due to natural selection. There is no reason why women should be naturally ligher than men on a global basis when they are the same ethnic group, but that is the case.

Another study...

"Although virtually all cultures express a marked preference for fair female skin, even those with little or no exposure to European imperialism, and even those whose members are heavily pigmented, many are indifferent to male pigmentation or even prefer men to be darker."

Fair Women, Dark Men, U. of Washington sociologist Pierre L. van den Berghe

Now this goes falls in line with the genetic data because it shows this has been going on for a long time. All the sudden all over the world after people saw Europeans women did not just become lighter then men...genes don't change that quick, not in 400 years or less.

This has been this way far longer. The sociologist just confirmed what the biologist found. :-O

Ras said: "As far as Japan...I said East Asia...Japan is in Easat Asia, as is China and Korea."

Debbie: Hmm, I thought we agreed that there are many differences between the different countries/ regions, therefore definition of beauty is likely different. Or do you not agree anymore?

Ras said: "Indians in the South are not darker due to climate...do you know anything about the history of India? Indians in the South are Dravidian...

Try reading about Indian people"

Debbie: I know this- along with the fact that the climate is hotter in southern India/

Ras said: "So let me get this straight. You are saying this afro-centric site knows more about what the people of these areas looked like than people from the time period who drew pictures of their own people. LOL"

Debbie: So let me get this straight- you're calling the site Afrocentric and you never visited it :) Ignorance is bliss my friend. Furthermore, I 'll say for the last time- since you have difficulty reading- READ the source.

Ras said: "You are basically saying second hand interpretation and remarks by European travelers are more accurate than first hand data from the people in question from the time period. Totally ridiculous."

Debbie: you are showing me pics to prove a point. Who's more ridiculous?

Ras said: "Another study...

"Although virtually all cultures express a marked preference for fair female skin, even those with little or no exposure to European imperialism, and even those whose members are heavily pigmented, many are indifferent to male pigmentation or even prefer men to be darker.

This has been this way far longer. The sociologist just confirmed what the biologist found. :-O"

Fair Women, Dark Men, U. of Washington sociologist Pierre L. van den Berghe"

Debbie: Thank You, I knew it wouldn't take long before you quoted a racist. Do a bio history on Pierre L. van den Berghe and you'll see what I'm talking about about.

Ras, you've only proved once again that you're an idiot- this is what called racist pseudo-science.

A wise brotha once said:

"Sistas think they're all that....but they ain't nothing but attitude and fat"

How true. That's why black men so often jump to the white side of the fence. Nappy, greasy hair, loud mouth's and cellulite are turn offs. Too many black women think they're nubian goddesses, when all they are is nubian fatasses. Black men like curves, but only niggas love fat.

Hit the gym, ladies.

//A wise brotha once said:

"Sistas think they're all that....but they ain't nothing but attitude and fat"

How true. That's why black men so often jump to the white side of the fence. Nappy, greasy hair, loud mouth's and cellulite are turn offs. Too many black women think they're nubian goddesses, when all they are is nubian fatasses. Black men like curves, but only niggas love fat.

Hit the gym, ladies.//

Debbie: How true. Too bad most these black men date homely looking, plain Jane, cellulite, pasty white females. I mean damn... if you going to date a white woman- can she at least look decent/ better than a "nappy, greasy hair, loud mouth" sista? After all, brothas are doing white men a service by taking their ugly white women. Have some decency!!! *roll of eyes*

Ras wrote about Debbie

//You really don't know what you are talking about//

The sad part is it took him a while to figure this out...

Debbie!

You are crazy intelligent! And wasted all that on what is left over, after all the normal people leave...

You held it up though!

LOL-

Blacks Americans we have people who are labeled black but really are third group that is neither black nor white they are in between mixed. Light skin blacks really are a totally different group separate from whites and blacks who are more African looking genetically. But thanks to the false one drop blood rule these lightskin, dark skin, and caramel brown skin blacks are labeled together and compete with each other about who looks better. When really the light skin blacks should not be labeled black they were supposed to have another name and remain separate from being a part of the black race and white race.

But since they were labeled black you now have dark skin blacks and Caramel skin black competeting with light skin blacks about who looks the best etc when the light skin is a separate racial group that was kept from coming into their own category via one drop blood rule.

Now all of this jealousy is moving around among blacks.

Debbie is not intelligent - she is someone who choose to mess up the discussion portion of Blackprof by arguing with no factual data and hurl insults.

Debbie is a social nutcase..

Ras said: "Debbie is not intelligent - she is someone who choose to mess up the discussion portion of Blackprof by arguing with no factual data and hurl insults.

Debbie: anonymous is Ras using a different names. If I'm such an idiot- please disprove me- I rely on facts.

M Robinson/CASpears/Rasfarengi/other names formerly expressed his obsessive internalized hatred of blackness and africanity at parapundit until they got fed up with his endless obnoxious extrusions and banned him.

Ras is another lying, conniving, manipulative white thrash peckerwood masquerading as a Black man. He is attempting to cause disunity in the Black family for the purpose of furthering the goals of white supremacy. To argue or discuss anything with him is a waste of time.

I wear my hair in a short, close-cut cropped style. No, it's not a short 'fro (I hate that look); my hair is cut at a barber shop.

Some people have an issue with it. Most people love it. It's carefree and striking and people get a real good look at your face - you can't hide your ugly behind hair.

When I'm in the mood for long hair, I have a couple of fly wigs. I do it just like the Egyptians - cut your hair off, put it on during the day and take it off at night!

I've found that while some people like me with my wigs, after a while, they really want me to go back to my short hair. *shrug*

As for this gym stuff: Lazy people (thin and fat) will do anything, ANYTHING, to stay away from the gym. I have some pretty kinky hair when I let it grow. Yet I can't possibly see myself pretending I can't slap it into a ponytail to go to the gym. I mean, I go to the gym several times a week and I'm not sweatin like THAT to where I would have to worry about my hair going through a change!

This is all stupid. BTW I hate hate HATE when pseudointellectuals get online and hijack a post. If you both live in DC, find each other and fight it out. But spare everyone else the 4 page, scroll-scroll-scrollllllll responses.

I was not banned at Parapundit and I never posted any anti-black hatred, actually I was arguing against racist and facist on that site since it tends to be right-wing.

Read the site yourself...

www.parapundit.com/archives/003646.html

I can also post there whenever I want. Ask Randell.

Why do people feel the need to lie and attack people on a personal level when they can't deal with the argument.

This only shows how weak your argument is.

Why do people feel the need to lie and attack people on a personal level when they can't deal with the argument.

This only shows how weak your argument is.

You haven't written any arguments, just spouted nasty oppositional opinions. Your opinions smell like ass. Nobody can tolerate the smell of what's coming from you assfarengi..., maybe you need to check yourself?

Rasfarengi is right. I never banned him at ParaPundit. Nor did I ban him on my other blogs.

Even though Ras and I have some pretty fundamental disagreements I have always found him civil. I only wish he would spend a little more time editing and make clearer points with far fewer words.

Also, he never wrote like he hated blacks (at least not that I recall). Though he's posted while pretending to be white in order to see how people would react to a white guy making arguments that he believes as a black guy or in order to bait white guys to reveal their true beliefs. I complained to him a bit about that deception. But I was curious to see how people would react as well and wasn't majorly offended.

Thank you Randall I appreciate that. As Randall said we often disagree on some fundamental things but he is also civil and I respect him. This is something many of you can learn from.

At first I was going to post why it was necessary to argue such mute points? and then why people spent so much time being unnecessarily cruel. Then after I realized that it was all a hoax OR just a forum for more black women haters to spew their hatred, I realized that it wasnt necesssary to respond directly. God had to wipe out whole nations to start new ones because of the hatred and traditional practices that ran so deeply into the social psychology in societal norms and thought patterns. I feel it is the same with America. Our socialized hatred is so embedded into our hearts and minds that we cannot recognize it, withoug thorough re education on the sociology of black oppression in America we will remain lost as a people.

LB:

Black people are always on their knees looking for black Jesus.

The truth is salvation is inside of us, we have to unlock the chains on our own souls. Free yourself.

As long as you hold onto victimology you will always be a slave.

People in Europe hated Jews of hundreds of years, people on the Middle East hated Armenians, Southeast Asians hated the Chinese...guess what? None of those groups allowed those who hated them to suppress them...creme always rises to the top.

It is up to you to decide if you are going to be creme or not...not anyone else.

"Our socialized hatred is so embedded into our hearts and minds that we cannot recognize it, withoug thorough re education on the sociology of black oppression in America we will remain lost as a people".

Until we stop producing children out of wedlock at a 70% rate, with mom working 2 jobs and no daddy in sight, we will remain lost as a people. Until we focus more on the power of education (the three R's, not the Sociology of Black Oppression), we will remain lost as a people. And until our role models become parents, community leaders and clean living neighborhood people, instead of rappers, athletes and self-serving black "activists" (i.e. Sharpton, Black Panthers, and assorted local hustlers), we will remain lost as a people, no matter our hair styles.

How do you protect your hair from all the sweating while working out?

What's wrong with sweat?

It is going to happen, plain and simple. It's not feminine, it's not pretty. It is a force of nature, and we die without the function.

Take your blowdryer with you, and a light moisturizing creme, perhaps.

Wow -
This discussion is all very interesting. I am going to have to go with Debbie, though. The way the initial comment by Ras was worded hinted at saying all cultures prefer light skin. It almost sounded as if it was a natural selection type thing. I disagree. Not saying that's what was said, but that is what it sounded like. Also, I am wondering about numbers. So yeah - there are some cultures who have always placed high value on light skin. I am interested in finding out about cultures that felt the opposite. They exist too. Basically, something about that way the initial statement was written set Debbie off and set me off slightly as well. It sounds like Ras is saying all the well respected cultures like the Chinese, "knew" that lighter was better.Interesting!!

Growing up, I often wore my hair pressed, relaxed, or braided. I would complain to my mother about why I didnt have "good" hair like her. I was aware that my hair was considered "nappy" and lets not talk about the " kitchen." For years I wore braids(it was more of..I dont know what to do with my hair..rather than looking for a cute style)..but.it got to a point where I was tired of taking them out..sitting for hours to have them put in..and furthe more damanging my front hairline. Locking my hair had never crossed my mine when I was an adolescent. I often viewed locked hair in a negative way. Looking back,I embraced straight hair because society teaches us that it is the standard of beauty and "better." A few years ago, I began thinking about "locking" my hair. One day..after having my hair pressed, I decided to begin the journey. I had my daughter's grandmother cut all the long strands off..I was left with an Afro..LOL. Its been a little over a year..and I love my hair. I have never felt more free. It was a conscious move. I am the woman in the photo attached to the article about natural hair. Thanks Robyn for putting me on the front..LOL..Bye the way..I cant end this without responding to the comment about black women being at a disadvantage. What I realize is that Black men are still living in a superficial world and have yet to embrace their "Blackness!"

Hair styles are personal decisions. We can look at the historical justifications until we're blue in the face. Its only human to want to "fit" into society and culture; and at one point, Black Americans wanted a more Eurocentric style. However, through time, we have come to realize the beauty in our own cultrual identity. There is not wrong or right way to fix'in our hair. If you like smooth styles, rock the weaves and relaxers. If you like texture, rock a fro or locs. Being overweight has nothing to do with how you style your hair, so who ever brought that subject up is an punk or bully. All Americans are getting fatter, so its not just an Black American issue. Thanks to those who can voice their opinions without destroying other, peace.

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It would seem, to a person who thinks everyone shares their view of worshipping white skin, that dark skinned women are at a "disadvantage", but how do you explain all the men who prefer dark skinned women (note, mostly Europeans)? Ever met a white guy looking for a milky white pale girl?

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I'm from Eastern Africa, and people in my country range from pale skin to very dark skin tones and from soft straight hair to tightly coiled hair. Prior to european invasion and colonization of Africa, skin color was not as big an issue as it is today. Men were attracted to women based on physical features and skin color really did not matter. When Arabs came to my country long ago, they ALL mixed and joined together with the Hamitic (blacks)... which shows that skin color was not an issue. But now when I talk to the east african youth who are raised in the US, they all seem to have this preference for lighter girls.
Also in East Africa, dark lips and dark gums are considered beautiful, but I find it interseting that in America this is considered an "ugly" characteristic to have. People in East Africa back in the day even went as far as to have their gums darkened.

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I'll share my hair story.

On a hot, windy summer day in August of 1997, I went to my stylist, with the intention of getting a touch up. As I strolled leisurely, I watched women desperately trying to shield their relaxed hair from the wind, and their obvious dismay and embarassment as they tried to pat it into place, that it didn't "fall into place", rather, stayed in it's strewn, upright position. I felt their embarassment; I'd felt it since I was 16 and got my first perm. I remembered all the times I wanted to swim, but was afraid to get my hair wet, all the times I ducked and dodge the slightest drop of rain, felt what amounted to dread on a humid, and that sinking feeling of having to face a windy day, or rolling up the car window so the wind couldn't mess up my hair. As I walked, I noticed