>Perhaps it is unfair for us to put our hopes and dreams on the shoulders of young women ....

Is this because they are female, or doomed to represent the race - a feat no individual or duo can, or should be asked to, do.

I follow tennis quite a bit. I will say when the Williams sisters first came up, they came up hard. It was true they were far and away better (more aggressive and stronger) than their female opponents. No doubt, they were superior athletes.

They are getting older though and Venus is not in as good of shape as she used to be.

Serena still has some time left in the sport to be a top competitor.

I think what has happened to them is the same thing that happened to Anna Kournakova...only difference is she barely ever won anything. She got distracted and was more into doing model suits and celebrity events than serious tennis competition.

As far as the attack on "blond and whitier" the French, Swiss and Russians (also other Eastern) Europeans)have turned up their game and they are younger. They are meeting the challenge of a new level of tennis, basically what you are seeing is they are "catching up" and the Williams sisters are getting older at the same time.

I also think that the Russians (examples...Maria Sharapova) are learning to compensate for the raw power of the Williams sisters. Lets face it, they are bigger and more muscular and are hitting the ball more similar to a weaker man than the classic female tennis player. That was almost unheard of. What the Europeans are doing is learning to play smarter...to be more accurate...they might not hit as hard but they are learning to be more skillful with moving the ball than they had to be in the past, so they are winning more against the Williams sisters.

Also I think the "Disillusioned tennis fans say the sisters are washed up, being outshined by blonder, whiter players from places like Moscow and Siberia."

I would not say this. I think people like Anna Kournakova and Maria Sharapova get a lot of attention (although they are not nearly as good as the William sisters) because they are hot.

I'm sorry, this is not a racial issue. There are hot black women, but the Williams sisters are not in that group. They look like drag queens at best.

So the Russian chicks get more exposure just due to the hotness factor, has nothing to do with their tennis ability.

Some of the other Tennis stars from France and Switzerland are not hot either and have beat the Williams sisters and get less attention than them.

Yes the world is not fair...what else is new?

To qualify the hotness factor...

pictures speak louder than words:

Kournikova:

//poze.f3.ro/anna-kournikova/Anna-Kournikova_1.jpg

Sharapova:

//www.newizv.ru/images/photos/big/20041227193159_23-sharapova.jpg

Serena:

//pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00173/Serena_Williams_173423a.jpg

Hingis:

//martinahingis.sexysportschicks.com/images/martina_hingis.jpg

Now lets keep it real, the last two, one white, one black will not get the attention of the first two in any country in the world. sorry. Maria Sharapova has her own damn song for Christ sakes...

LOL...God she is fine...:-) Next wife, will be a mail order bride from the Former Soviet Union no doubt!!!!

To qualify the hotness factor...

pictures speak louder than words:

Kournikova:

poze.f3.ro/anna-kournikova/Anna-Kournikova_1.jpg

Sharapova:

www.newizv.ru/images/photos/big/20041227193159_23-sharapova.jpg

Serena:

pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00173/Serena_Williams_173423a.jpg

Hingis:

martinahingis.sexysportschicks.com/images/martina_hingis.jpg

Now lets keep it real, the last two, one white, one black will not get the attention of the first two in any country in the world. sorry. Maria Sharapova has her own damn song for Christ sakes...

LOL...God she is fine...:-) Next wife, will be a mail order bride from the Former Soviet Union no doubt!!!!

Pro McGee here.

Hotness, as always, is in the eye of the beholder.

Anonymous:

are you a male or a female?

I hope nobody here is trying to suggest that Sharapova or Kournakova are hotter than Serena Williams. Because she is awesome.

bigmaconcampus:

Uhm...if you like women who like transvestites...well...that's your thing it is 2006, I won't judge you.

There is a reason Serena is with a short ugly white guy.

No brother of similar wealth wants that...believe it.

Like I said it is nothing to do with race, there are fine black women all over this countries. Beautiful!

The Williams sisters are not in that group.

Sorry but Kournakova and Sharapova are off the chain...I am pretty sure if I did an internationalpoll (and excluded predominately white nations) 75% of men or more will say they are hotter than the Williams sisters. I would bet all the money, car, stock, 401K, etc I have.

You want to see the white Tennis equivalent of the Williams sisters?

No problem...there are some butt ugly white chicks on the tennis circut as well...

Mauresmo

i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/tennis/09/13/bc.ten.rankings.ap/p1_mauresmo_ap.jpg

martinahingis.sexysportschicks.com/images/martina_hingis.jpg

Both damn good tennis stars booth butt ugly. Just like the Williams sisters.

If any of them were on the street and not famous I would not look at them twice, besides to note how ugly they are. That is for real. :-)

is this not beautiful?

http://i.cnn.net/si/pr/subs/swimsuit/images/03_swilliams_01.jpg

Christophe:

Dude...look at her face!!!

You are one of those brothers who are mesmerized by a big butt and big breast no matter if it was on the Elephant Man. LOL

A transvestite can have a fly body... Serena is BIG...Serena is as likely as big as you are...this is not a "girlly girl" trust me. I have been to a match and seen them fairly close.

Sharapova is 6 foot tall but thin. Probably 140lbs max. Venus is thin too but muscular, Serena is built like a mack truck!!! Hell I'm 6'3" and weight 210lb I am almost certain she weights at least 180 or more. If I wanted a woman as big as me I would just be gay...

Like I said if you are into transi types...it is 2006...more power to you I won't hate. LOL

This is why Serena was dating Brett Ratner...the goofy white guy in the picture below. Hell i can't hate on him, better him than me. :-)

www.mjj.altervista.org/immagini/gallerie/MJ_VIP/images/MJ%20&%20Brett%20Ratner%20and%20Chris%20Tucker%20and%20Serena%20Williams_jpg.jpg

Christophe:

If you prefer Serena to six feet of this wrapped around you then I have to call into question your sexuality. I fine woman is a fine woman I don't care if she is blue or purple.

www.superiorpics.com/hs/maria_sharapova/main1.jpg

Another hot tennis star is this Muslim Indian chick. She has some serious security it appears some Muslims are offended by her playing tennis and some crazy Imam put a fatwa out on her calling for her to be killed.

:-(

Sania Mirza:

www.ontennis.com/images/sani.jpg

www.vgreets.com/greetings/sania-mirza-3.jpg
Gorgious

Hahahahahha....man yall are crazy!! how did we go form a serious post to this:) Ok I checked out the link...yeah she's on point...I had to put up a defense for Serena...yall were just toooo harsh...

LOL CHristophe you are right...we should get back to the central topic. :-)

**Winning easily, the sisters became bored playing against lesser opponents...**

Um, no. Serena is one of the greatest tennis players of all time. Her recent decline is due to a knee injury which is very serious, not "boredom".

Keep in mind that she did not just overwhelm all existing tennis players. The Williams sisters made their ascent right after Martina Hingis, who was overwhelmingly dominant, began suffering debilitating ankle injuries that derailed her career. Serena would have had a much more formidable rival than her sister had this not happened.

The idea that Serena got bored, and decided she didn't want to win tennis matches anymore, is absurd. She declined because she had a significant injury. Had there been no injury, she would never have stopped winning, until someone better came along. (In other words, a lot like Martina Hingis, and any other tennis player).

I'd also like to draw attention to the wide gulf between the sentiments of these two sentences:

**Disillusioned tennis fans say the sisters are washed up, being outshined by blonder, whiter players from places like Moscow and Siberia. **

and

**For me Venus and Serena, the champs from Compton are more than mere athletes. They symbolize the American dream, not just for African Americans but for anyone who has overcome great odds to succeed at the highest levels.**

The first sentence is pure, bitter, jealous rage. Why not merely point out that they have not been as successful as they had once been? Why mention "blonder, whiter"? Because this is what really matters to the author-not that Serena and Venus have succeeded and then hit hard times, but that their successors had the wrong physical appearance.

Contrast that to the second sentence. "not just for African Americans but for anyone who has overcome great odds to succeed". A great sentiment, and the reason we should all celebrate the Williams sisters' success. But I have a hard time the author really means this to apply to "everyone".

It's a bit disappointing that a discussion that should have been about the Williams sisters' eroding tennis skills has become an appraisal of their looks. This can be traced back to the author of the blog, who has an obvious chip on her shoulder about white female tennis players being perceived as more attractive than the Williams sisters.

WTA rankings aren't based on looks or race. The rankings are based on factors such as the number of tournaments played and won, and how far players who enter tournaments advance. At present, Venus is ranked 48th in the world, whilst Serena is ranked 95th. Their respective rankings speak for theselves and that's what the discussion should be about.

I believe they each lost interest in tennis after proving they could dominate the best players in the world and, as a result, becoming multi-millionaires.

I understand and appreciate this site's apprent aim but have to ask if everything must come down to a matter of race, particularly vis-a-vis black women. Geesh!

Hannibal, In America, EVERYTHING where Black folks are concerned, has been about race. Where have you been? It will never change! So when a topic like this includes race-it is just par for the course, and American as apple pie! As far as Serena dating white, she has the same need to feel she is moving up in class and status, as black men who date white women. They are all victims of a racist soceity that values whites and de-values blacks. Serena's (and also her mom's) blond wigs, are another manifestation of her twisted value system. Tiger Woods has the same twisted world-view as well.

There was absolutely no reasson for race to be interjected into this topic. That was the choice of the author. After the novelty of the sisters race and rags to riches story wore off, the story was of how they change womens tennis with there athleticism and power, (same thing tiger woods did in golf), and how they came to dominate the game because of it. As another poster noted, their shooting star careers is nothing new in womens tennis, it's actually par for the course with a few exceptions. This article is a clear example with our preocuppation and fixation with race. Some just have to find and exploit the racial angle in everything.

bennie :

you have got to be joking me. Serena and her mother where blond wigs because they are inherently ghetto.

You don't see middle class blacks (who tend to have a lot more contact with whites) doing that nonsense on the regular.

Tiger Woods is not messed up, he does more to help poor kids in this country (of all races) in a day than you did last year. He knows what racism is, but he rejects your idea of racial catagories...so he must be "defected" to you...

Serena dates a ugly white man because she is ugly and the white man likely can't tell an ugly black woman from a fine one. A wealthy brother won't want her.

If a wealthy brother wanted a beautiful dark skin black woman he would get a Naomi Campbell, an Aisha Tyler, a Angela Bassett.

He woudln't get transvestite looking Serena who is likely bigger than him.

As I said before it is not really about race at all, none of it.

Tenis was more exiting with the overpowing americans (Williams, Williams, Davenport and Capriotti) vs Hingis Pierce et al. I barely watch now. With hingis and the Americans, we were always guaranteed a good match. Maybe Roddick and Blake will supply some entertaining matches.

Vincent:

You are right...it is kind of boring...I just watch matches with Sharapova to hear her grunt and moan...that is awesome!! lol About as exciting as it gets.

>but he rejects your idea of racial catagories...

While Ras would go on to say of Venus and Serena:

they are inherently ghetto....You are one of those brothers...mesmerized by a big butt and big breast no matter if it was on the Elephant Man. LOL

A transvestite can have a fly body...Like I said if you are into transi types...

You want to see the white Tennis equivalent of the Williams sisters? No problem...there are some butt ugly white chicks on the tennis circut as well...

I think people like Anna Kournakova and Maria Sharapova get a lot of attention...because they are hot.

I'm sorry, this is not a racial issue. There are hot black women, but the Williams sisters are not in that group. They look like drag queens at best.

So the Russian chicks get more exposure just due to the hotness factor....
**********
Ras,

we have been so maligned, for so long, along the lines of your myriad comments. Why, when your brain is so large? Why? Is this Venus envy? Why?

luxhie:

You can take quotes out of context all you want.

What I said stands.

Venus and Serena are not washed up.

The original post is not a racial issue

They don't get the attention of some other athletes who are white, not because they are black but because they are ugly.

Good white players who are also ugly are not getting the attention of Sharapova...but they are better than her.

So there is no reason to conclude this is a race issue.

The issue is the difference between superior sports ability and stardom...they are not always the same thing especially when women are concerned in the public eye. That is reality, get over it.

Hengis is superior to Sharapova in every way on the court but she doesn't get even 40% the exposure in the media...both women are white.

luxhie:

I should qualify what I said last time.

WHen Venus and Serena first hit the seen they were not only very very good, they were black.

This gave them big time exposure in the press. They were young, ghetto, and black. An American freaking dream story in the lilly white dominant tennis world. Similar to Tiger Woods in Golf.

That novalty has since worn off. Venus is getting old, Serena is face more fiece competition and has had injuries.

I have stated some of this in my initial posts.

Now that the hype of them being ghetto and black has calmed and their winning has slowed their novalty is also waining.

I would still say they get more press than the average female tennis player who is ranked much higher than them.

Since they are coming back "down to earth" they now compete in a different way. Like many famous athletes they also get endorcements, but the truth is they are ugly and not well spoken so they will never get the exposure that Sharapova does in the media.

As I said neither does Hengis. She is ugly, white European...there is nothing special about her that makes her stand out. SHe is a damn good tennis player but that does not necessarily "sell" stuff.

Ras,

The comments were not out of context, (not used to slant the meaning or imbue a different and unintended meaning than you, the author, sought to communicate) but placed into a form used to highlight the race-based categories and categorical statements you made in this thread, as you sought to tell some other poster he need not hate on Tiger, who, you state to the above poster, "rejects your idea of racial catagories..."

Your statements about the Sisters were excerpted to highlight your racial ideas of Black women, with no editing or manipulation needed to convey an unsavory disposition toward not only them, but the larger group of Black women.

Is it necessary to constantly do this? Do the male Japanese relatives of your wife constantly sit around hurling epithets about Japanese women?

What kind of race bashing is this?
Are you just shooting the breeze, talking out of the side of your neck?

luxhie:

How did I:

"convey an unsavory disposition toward not only them, but the larger group of Black women."

That is nonsense. Reread what I said, I said there are beautiful black women, even named some. Dark skinned and light skinned, whatever.

Just because you are black does not mean you are beautiful that is nonsense.

The Williams sisters are ugly.

I also pointed out ugly white players. who also get less attention recently, although they are good tennis players, ranked higher currently than the Williams sisters.

Your major leap of logic is that you think "I mean" black women are ugly because I said two black women are ugly...but this falls flat when I even mentioned other beautiful black women, so it is obvious I can't mean that all black women are ugly because I find the Williams sisters ugly.

The only point you can draw is "he thinks these two women are ugly".

There are about 500 million black women on earth and the Williams are 2, hardly representative of a race.

Maybe in your skewed world of illogic, but not in reality.

Actually in Japan, Japanese men (just like here) make fun of ugly Japanese women all the time. Often calling them "big legged" or just pig (butta, not to be confused with Buddha).

This does not mean that they think all Japanese women are ugly. Hell my wife remarkes when she sees an ugly Japanese woman in a movie...for example in the American movie "Snow Falling on Cedars" with Ethan Hawke, she always says the start of that movie is ugly and the girl who played her sister is much better looking?

Is my wife self hating because she thinks one Japanese woman is ugly as compared to another???

You are being ridculous and hypersensative. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. The only thing I can conclude is you:

a) want to blow up the situation and law because you dislike me on a personal level.

b) You feel you look like the Williams sisters and are personalizing what I'm saying (quite likely).

c) You think all black women are equally beautiful in their way and can never be ugly.

I'm guessing A and B are most likely.

If the Williams sisters were just as good as they are now and looked like Naomi Campbell trust me they would get nearly the exposure Sharapove and Kournakova get (I said nearly because I recognize there is a "white" bias but still hot women make a lot of money as models regardless of race, looke at Tyra Banks).

And for the record,

While Serena has some other thing going on, can you honestly say that you feel Venus is 'ghetto,' and 'ugly,' with no class and poor speech delivery?

I think that woman is graceful and self-possessed. She is approaching a time in her life where, physically, she seems to embody the stature and sense of self-awarenesss and easy,slow grace in interview that makes her glow. Have you looked at her?

Hell, I even loved, I mean loved, loved, loved, when her little-girl-inside came out one or two years ago and she leaped all over the court like a little girl after a major win. All I could think was,

"in the seven wonders
of the world-
you know she's got to be
number one-

she's a girl who can't be beat
born and raised on ghetto street
she's a devastating beauty-
a pretty girl with ebony eyes..."

Now Stevie, that man loves us in a deep and knowing way.

I could have added your little disclaimer about there being some beautiful black women in the world - i should have, is suppose, but why bother when you use this kind of tone about Black women in every post where you have the opportunity.

Do you not see that ? Or, truly, are you just talking because you can, having fun? Are you really espousing a philosophy to which you actually adhere? God, I hope not.

While seeking to bait me is par for the course in forums like this, where we cannot see each other, and even if we could, it would simply lead to the next level of unfounded assumption about how I feel about myself inside, it's a no go.

I dislike you on a personal level? What have I said to that effect? I wouldn't, not having that kind of relationship with you.

No, Rasfarengi, though the user name inspires all sorts of ideas of your physical aesthetic, I have formed no opinion of you, save those drawn from your many comments. And even then, to be possessed of a personal angst against you? No. We are definitely on two different sides of the way we view the world.

I will continue to seek to nurture, listen, speak when appropriate and ask questions when needed. As I did of you.

You will continue to...do what you do. I haven't even chosen to characterize that, outside of this particular running theme.

As for looking like the Sisters, they are my sisters...i will not blanketly and unnecessarily distance myself from them to satisfy your rabid hunger for heartmeat, no thank you.

luxhie:

"but why bother when you use this kind of tone about Black women in every post where you have the opportunity."

That is a lie.

I always qualify my statements carefully. I often speak about a class of black women, I never speak generally, such as "all black women", "black women do this", etc.

I speak directly about the class of black women I'm speaking of and the location they tend to live in.

These women are not the majority of black women in this country.

As far as Serena and Venus...uhm...whatever...no I see no "beauty" in them and I've "looked" at them dozens of times.

I think they are great athletes some of the top women' tennis players in the world and of our generation.

This does not make them beautiful African queens.

You don't think Venus is beautiful?

God, I think she is lovely.

Serena has a facial structure and features like so many West Indian women that I've lived near, and with (in college), from all over the Caribbean, and after the tension of what they expected from me, being African American, did not manifest, and the 'tude dropped from the way they interacted with me, I laughed and shared great moments with these women.

And found that as I moved away from what women in my own community looked like, traditionally, and came to know another beauty aesthetic, vibrant in its own right, so, too, did I come to recognize, and sometimes even marvel, at the cheekbones, the lips, the sassy ass comment they would throw with a wink.

I don't know, Ras...ever spent any time in Brooklyn?

By the way, if I could go back and reread the texts of your posts since I've been visiting the site, I would, but I'm not going to make a case study out of you.

Had I thought I was misrepresenting your general tone, though, I would not have written as I did, or questioned you as I did.

You wrote that you " always qualify [your] statements carefully.... speak about a class of black women... never speak generally, such as "all black women", "black women do this", etc.

If this is Without Exception, then I am indeed mischaracterizing.

That (possible) mischaracterization could come from what seems a never-ending assault on Black women, without qualifiers. I certainly, as well as others who I have noticed screaming at you, have been impacted by your rants as a general scathing pre-disposition against anything and all things Black American.

If that is wrong, or unfair, or slanderous, or shortsighted, it is reflective of the tone of your posts in the aggregate.

And I never suggested in that earlier post about the Sisters that you were self-hating.

luxhie:

You are a female I take it.

Unless you are a lesbian your opinion on what woman is beautiful is worth a hill of beans.

If I took a poll of just black men in America.

I put up 5 black women:

1) Venus Williams
2) Naomi Campbell
3) Tyra Banks
4) Beyonce
5) Aishia Tyler
6) a young Angela Basset

Do you honestly think that Venus would be in the top 3?

Come on keep it real.

I don't care how you want to play it or say it Venus is not attractive to the vast majority of men, black or otherwise. Now are there men that will find her beautiful somewhere?

Sure. There are men who think Star Jones is hot (her husband) but would the average black man put Star Jones at the top of his list? Hell no.

Brooklyn...nope never been there. Been to the Manhatten a few times. I see plenty of black folks from all over here in D.C. I have a good idea of what black peolpe from the Carribean, East Africa, West Africa, and America look like in general.

Of all of them...give me an Ethiopian or Dark skin Somali sista any day. :-)

Give me this:

Pure black African Ethiopian Godess any day of the week:

www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/sitebuilder/images/ModernEthiopianWoman-205x277.jpg

Over this...pure black American ghetto Queen:

www.celebrity9.com/img/serena-williams/pictures/thumbs/serena-williams-pictures-7.jpg

A) looks like a woman, there is no doubt about that even in dark light, on a foggy day, if you are half blind, if you see her from behind, etc.

B) can easily be mistaken for a man even in the middle of the day with no clouds.

Most men prefer A. Trust me.

I'm laughing right now.

You are obviously a man, who can only objectify women, with the standards to which you hold, dismissing, making obsolete the hundreds of various ethnic groups and cultures in the history of mankind that have extolled the natural beauties among them, and to their own standards, whims, eccentricities, biases, and needs.

Let's say you're Black. Unless you're the kind of Black that loves other Blacks what you have to say about Black people, how they look, associate, define themselves, speak, worship, love and make love, procreate, medicate, fornicate, and anything else, means squat.

Take as many polls as you want. Try polling the hearts and spirits of the young men of whom who would man-on-the-street. Then try polling their mothers' hearts and spirits...echoing over with the comments of the men who came before their sons, growing alongside their sons, and their very own sons.

Now go back and take that poll, dude.

See what kinds of answers you get.

You do recognize that you are going for an entire nation-state of women, absent any particular cultural attributes or behaviors, over that of the caricaturized 'culture of American Blacksness' right?

Your Black American Ghetto Queen...does she have a counterpart in, say, Ethiopia or Somalia?

Your Black American not-in-it/not-of-it sister...could you crown her queen, ever?

No? No?

That's laughable.

This thread has taken an unexpected turn. Interested posts.

What I would like to know is why it is necessary to justify the belief that Serena and Venus are ugly, as you say? why take polls and talk about what "the average man" likes?

The Williams Sisters have been featured in every top fashion and beauty magazine on the market.

Apparently, someone must think they are marketably good looking.

This thread has taken an unexpected turn. As in many instances a woman's talent is qualified by the way she looks.

What I would like to know is why it is necessary to justify the belief that Serena and Venus are ugly, as you say? Why propose polls and talk about what "the average man" likes?

The Williams Sisters have been featured in every top fashion and beauty magazine on the market.

Apparently, someone must think they are marketably good looking.

sorry for the duplicate post.

luxhie:

"Take as many polls as you want. Try polling the hearts and spirits of the young men of whom who would man-on-the-street. Then try polling their mothers' hearts and spirits...echoing over with the comments of the men who came before their sons, growing alongside their sons, and their very own sons."

LOL...yeah you are ugly. This is your entire beef. In my entire 30 years, the only women I have EVER heard talk that kind of nonsense were the ones who couldn't get a man if they were "giving it away". Okay, keep a man, some man will always "brown paper bag it".

Prof McGee:

I give you your due respect, but what gay men who make fashion magazines think is attractive means nothing to me. They also think Kate Moss is attractive? Now do you think the average man of any race is into that? I don't think so, I know a lot of white men who think she is gross...fashion magazines are for women and gay men, not real heterosexual men.

Prof. McGee:

I'm not all of that, never thought I was...but my wife damn sure looks better than Serena Williams.

If those girls were not famous they would not be on anyone's magazine cover, you know it and I know it.

Maria Sharapova or Anna Kournakova, regardless of Tennis skill could get in someone's magazine I'm pretty sure. It might be Maxim and not Vogue, but they can find a niche.

Serena Williams. Come now professor I think you know better.

I would not even look at those women twice on the street, and I mean that with all sincerity.

luxhie:

Lets put it this way. I have seen many many East African women in D.C...I have seen how they behave, where they go to school, what they major in. I know a few.

I would take the average Ethiopian woman in DC over 8/10 black American women in DC any day of the week if I was single.

Somali women also.

Those women have self respect, they are not loud, they take care of their bodies (not many overweight ones under 40), they respect education, they respect their men, they act in a way that is quite feminine, they don't dress tacky.

That is on top of being generally fine (not always, but in general).

As I said, in DC...about 10% of black American would fit the bill and I would date. The rest. HELL NO. Especially the ones from SouthEast and about 75-80% of the ones from Prince George's.

Sorry...I got more going on and I'm bringing more to the table to settle for that.

Then again I'm not single so...I don't need to worry about that. I got Ms. Rasfarengi, and she fits the bill.

If you think I say this with arrogant pride. I do not. I say it with sadness. It is what it is.

Like I said, Serena has chubby goofy white boy for a reason...they suit each other.

Just like Halle Berry has a white model boyfriend. They suit each other too, no one is hating but people usually pair up with equals.

>Then again I'm not single so...I don't need to worry about that. I got Ms. Rasfarengi, and she fits the bill.

What's arrogant about that? Water finds its own level, to be sure.

You're funny, and if I ever bothered in my life to describe myself to a man (and I never have), it would certainly not be to one who insists on calling me the names you do, based on NOTHING other than a genuine sense of connectedness with other women.

I wouldn't allow other women to debase the Sisters and simply nod my head in agreement, so I can't do it with a 'farengi, either.

The careers of Serena and Venus teach better and more complete lessons about racism and Black self hatred than probably any other recent circumstance. It amazes me how relatively uncelebrated they are in the Black community given their accomplishments. (The dad, too. He is just genius, and merits study.) Their relative obscurity in the Black community is very evident to me when I consider the wider spread fame and celebration of Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods has not ever wanted to claim Black identity. (He more readily embraces his Korean identity--although the Koreans have told him bluntly that they don't want him or identify with hin. (Cf. Hinds Ward.) Tiger's father never really claimed Black identity either. (He wreaked of Black hatred.) In contrast, Serena and Venus are proudly Black (call it Ghetto, if you would like, but I don't find "ghetto," necessarily bad--or even necessarily "Black." (Who is more ghetto than Paris Hilton?)) (BTW, notwithstanding racist suggestions to the contrary, the reputation of the siters on the tours is as the nicest and most polite and respectful. They are the biggest, very religious (J.Witnesses), very protected nerds. How is that not apparent to anyone who can see Black adn not see street?)) The sisters concentrate their charity work in the Black community--exclusively in the Black community. They do not shirk the idetification (although they have very nerdy, and sometimes "white influenced" tastes. Serena said she won the Australian Open two years ago because she wanted to get the attention of the lead singer of Green Day, who would be playing in Australia, the day of Serena's win.) Despite the sisters great efforts, Black male commentators regularly ignore the sisters (though they never seem to miss a moment to salivate over Tiger Woods--as if Tiger is representing the race, proving to the "Man" Black prowess. Ridiculous!) and too many times when lay people talk of sisters, they talk just about their weaves--not their talent--or having their children emulate the sisters. Black people want them to represent an affirming look, one that is also appealing to whites. I don't know. (Cicely and Whoopi suffered the same fate. Hatred of African purity--hatred of self.)

The other self-hating jibberish that gets too often repeated is that the sisters' declining rank is simply due to their disinterest. Why can't we ever take an independent searching view of ourselves? Attribute to us humanity? Let's not just regurgitate what we should presume to be hateful things promulgated by the white media. Why not presume the best of us--and then possibly develop an ability to celebrate our purest forms (like the peoples of the world who actually love themselves.)

Serena and Venus are worn out--and rightly so. Unlike no other successful athlete of the current era (and certainly no other tennis star,) the sisters have almost never had the benefit and the lift of "hone court advantage." They have never been the crowd or the commentators favorites (but things might be changing of recent as they get desparate for ratings.) They are always fighting against suspicion, innuendo, and negativity. That's hard. I teach. I can't imagine the impact it would have on my body --let alone my psyche and my willingness to continue, to have to teach each time before a class of hostile students. It is not human to endure that. Only because we don't attribute to Black women especially human traits--such as low energy levels and psche damage--we don't first seek to understand and quickly sympathize with them.

And the hotility is really bad, palpable (Navratolova had to scold the US Open crowd for booing Serena--for just winning--while cheering the foreigners. it never happens that way.) I've been to tournaments essentially in the sisters backyard (Key Biscayne) and the crowd has preferred a Belgium over the American, Florida residents--and the American commentators too.

I have had to repeatedly call networks just to remind them and have them refer to Venus and Serena too as Americans. They are not just islands out there. They have rather claimed the Russians (products of our once most hated enemy) than recognize the sisters. (Well, until now. They realize that Serean and Venus are the biggest television draw by far of any woman athlete. Venus is the most recongizable female athlete in the WORLD. Serena is second.)

As an aside here, let me just get in the mud a bit. I have pictures of Serena all over my house. I have that butt picture of hers autographed in my house. Every guy wants it. My nephews set her picture, frontal, no butt, up as their background. She is considered beautiful, hot and fine. Sharapova, on the other hand, doesn't appeal. Her skin is pale and blothcy. (Bad adult acne.) Her hair is thin, short and stringy (Now, she needs a good Gwynth Paltrow weave.) Her face is bland, with not a single remarkable feature. Great eyes? No! Great mouth? No. Her forehead is too broad, and gives her an ape like appearnace in the face. Sharapova's body is without curves, and a bit concaved. (See, how in the commercials, she must always lean with hands on hip to give the appearance of curves.) She has twelve toes! True. Check it out! And I believe with all my heart--as many in the tennis blogging world does--that she was not born female--and is the product of something strange. "Her" so-called father is unathletic, fat and short. "She's" 6"3, lanky and athletic. "She" has never once presented her mother.

Now, to her credit, she avoids the trashy, whorish look that is too common to Russian women but what she gains there she loses in because of the Nazi-like totality of her pale skin blondness.

So, I can't see how any of this can result in "hot." She is not Kournikova (nice mouth, nice eyes, full (though unfortunately blond) hair, come-hither look, and seemingly playful disposition.)

Ras must think Sharapova is hot for the same reason that Sharapova herself explained the obsession of the Japanese with her--she's blond. Is that it? In the face of blond hair and pale face, you have not further critique--having accepted whole clother foreign notions of beauty.

About their lower rank, honestly they never seemd concerned about rank. But even though ranked far outside of the top ten, the honest commentators would tell you that Serena healthy and committed is the best player out there by far.

There also was the very violent death of their sister, the custody fight for her children, and now the rearing of the children. Then, too, they are injured.

Finally, the decision by Serena especially to prusue acting now, rather than just tennis would make a lot of sense. Her only chance for Hollywood success is now. Hollywood does not have a place for a 30-year old Serena. Even white woman with true acting talent and some with a track recond of good performances can't get work at 30. For females, Hollywood is for the young. The same might said of fashion. It is better to be the young, hot thing. Thus, the sisters are making th eright choice--as they always have.

I couold go on but I am tired. It is late.

What I would like to know is why it is necessary to justify the belief that Serena and Venus are ugly, as you say? why take polls and talk about what "the average man" likes?

assfarengi desperately craves an elusive vestige of normalcy and beyond that, community. sadly, the extent of his hideous psychological disfigurement makes these aims completely unattainable.

Do you further the cause of celebrating the Sisters by denigrating the physical form of others? So often, one leaps to recriminations to defend, when it just fuels the fire.

I am curious as to why you did not word your opening statement with the aspects of misogyny, and the devaluing of women across the board, evident in the lack of glory extended to the female athlete, and in this case, the Sisters. (Except, of course, for the times when we are objectified as validation of our worth.) *sigh*

I am not sure if the above post was addressed to me, but I am happy to answer.
Funny, how "blonder and whiter" is seen as denigrating. In professional tennis, as in the real world, those are attributes much admired.

I wrote this thread because as a huge Williams sisters fan, I am beyond disappointed that they are not playing and winning more. I stated the reasons I believe for their absence. In my opinion, they are still the best players on the WTA tour. Others are winning because they have adapted the Williams sisters' style. Granted, sports fans tend to be selfish when it comes to our idols.

BTW, I will sorely miss Lindsay Davenport as well. She is pregnant and from what I understand has left the tour for good.

luxhie:

No matter how you want to rationalize it, you with your femi-nazi ideologies will not change millions of years of male evolution. Men are much more visual and base attractiveness in women far more on what they see than anything else (at least at first) this has always been the way it is and it will always be that way until we "evolve" beyond it which 10,000 years of civilization has not changed as of yet.

You can talk all day long about personality and inner beauty all you want but at the end of the day that only goes so far in the mass appeal popularity contest with men.

Oh, I'm sorry, did you not understand the qualities that bespoke of more than a surface beauty, and recognize that to be an essential part of beauty?

Oh...we are speaking at a pre-k level. got it.

My darling, Venus is still in there.

Femi-Nazi? Even your wife is my sister, and I don't choose to give her the back of my head, or my hand.

Women are often surprised that I will not engage in their pettiness as well, and then want to call me idealistic, and then attack for reasons that they feel "advantage" me over other women, thereby dismissing my comments.

I'll be your Femi-Nazi, I'll be the necessary bitch that Judy Simmons spoke of in Essence about twenty years ago. And I'll carry the flags proudly.

By the way...in a dark alley, or a crowded elevator, I'd be the only one not shirking away from your Blackness, I'd be the one there to tell you that the one that hurt you deeply doesn't have to be the reason you denigrate your daughter when she wants to sport cornrows and call herself hapa.

I'd be the one there to welcome your wife into a room full of sisters giving nothing but shade as she enters with her straight black hair and cafe-au-lait children on the first day of kindergarten, or Jack and Jill, or parents' welcome to the BSU at Stanford. Or Dillard. Or Cincinnati State.

There's a storm coming , and you are not going to be prepared for it. Reach out to me. I'll help you get through it.

Pro McGhee:

How you could construe my posting, sans any reference to whose prior posting I was replying (my bad), is beyond me.

I heard you smile, a smug, smack-you-on-the-back-of-the-hand little thing, and found it amusing, though unnecessary. Luxhie is not hypersensitive that way.

I was addressing Wolf.

Less than denigrating Sharapova, I was mocking Ras. I was again questioning whether he had not assumed a white supremacist, anti-black standard of beauty as even according to broader white conventional standards, Sharapova wouldn't make the beauty grade. So, the question asked, is she "hot" or is she just a great"white" hope --with twelve toes? (I also think she is gay. She has shown no interests in boys.)

But, Luxhie, you are sensing something right: of course, I don't find Sharapova remotely physically attractive either (and partly because she doesn't have a body shape that appeals to me.) And, I agree, in a conversation about tennis performance, a conversation abut a player's attractiveness should be besides the point. But it wasn't in this discussion. It became a point, and I was responding to it--to get past it. Moreover, I have found that taking a person's argument on its own terms is an effective way to beat an argument back--to work within a person's own value system. You apparently prefer a different approach: to sit on a high hourse and try to uselessly proselytize. (I know it makes you feel good about yourself but I wonder whether it ever moves anyone.) I find that creating the cognitive dissonance ("I said I was preferred the "hot" but here I am celebrating a person I would otherwise consider a circus freak might") might trigger the awakining needed to move the person on.

Finally, outside of a conversation about tennis, physical human beauty and luscious body forms are merit conversation. Works of great art that should be celebrated. No different from a great mind, great talent, or great back hand.

I was simply mocking Ras, allowing him on his own terms. (Ras claimed to be just alerting to the "hot" yet he celebrates a twelve-toe circus freak who clearly doesn't have the slightest interest in boys. Is she "hot" or is she just getting a white pass?)

I was hoping to create in Ras the cognitive dissonace that might expand him. But, you are right, too, I don't find Sharapova attractive, and that is not unrelated to the fact that she is not fine.

And you're right that as a conversation about tennis, Sharapova's atractiveness is irrelevant. Sadly, this conversation wasn't just about tennis. And if it weren't about tennis--and a general one, there is nothing wrong with observing the attractiveness of a woman's form--even the relative attractiveness of her form.

Beauty is deserving of pause and comment!

High horse? Proselytize?

Please, I offered up counterpoint to his myopic argument, and my defense of the merits of the counterpoint.

No one is going to be swayed by my speech unless they are so given, as with Ras'.

Beauty did become an issue here, true, and that is why we are both still posting. Ras' line of discussion being sophomoric, moronic and rather devolved for modern man, has no force of authority.

Wolf:

If you want to turn this into a discussion about beauty/tastes/and race, particularly my tastes...well I do find Sharapova far more attractive than Serena..but is her or Serena my personal preference? HELL NO.

Is more most people like oranges and Sharapova is close to an orange, but Serena is a lemon. Personally I prefer grapes, and I can go for an orange, but I don't like lemons. That's about where it is at.

I stand by what I said, Serena is butt ugly to me. Nothing you can say is going to change that. She has a body like a pro-wrestler transvestite and a face like a man. I don't care if I'm the most politically incorrect black man in America...I won't bite my tongue to make afro-centrist and femi-nazis happy.

I’m a grown man. There is not cognitive dissonance here. I know what I like on a personal level. To be honest I can find and appreciate beauty in any race/ethnicity of woman, however we all have preferences. I have remarked on some beautiful light skinned and dark skinned black women in this thread. I have also stated a preference for African women above African American women given a choice…due to average disposition.

My opinion of other men’s opinions and my own in regard to the physical beauty of women:

My opinion although maybe considered racist by some is as follows (this is all based on averages, not extremes)…I think it is just evolution…based on what was important to people in the regions…this had selective pressure on women, because men are high visual compared to women.

1) Asian men (from Asia) tend to like cute innocent look women. They like girlish types. I have rarely met an Asian man who really looks at a woman’s body more than her face. So face is important and the woman better look as feminine (to them girlish as possible)….hence most Asian women look this way and many act this way (at least around men they like). She also better be white (as in skin color not race)…think Zhang Zhiyi and Gong Li.
http://zhangziyi.free.fr/Photos/Hero/moon2.jpg
http://www.chicodeluigi.it/portraits/GONG%20LI.jpg (this chick is 40 years old BTW).

2) Black guys are almost polar opposite. They tend to view face as less than body. Most black men will date a woman with a manly looking face (by anyone else’s standards) as long as she has big boobs and especially a big bubble butt. I’ve seen this over and over again. (Hence why some brothers can think the Williams Sisters are fine and most nonblack men think they look like transvestites, he is not really looking at their face). Hence black women might not have the smoothest of facial features but they tend to have more of an hour glass figure (unless they are overweight, which 60-70% of black women are in America). Still I think black women are not particularly gifted above the neck (on average)…hey no one is perfect. Asian women are not particularly gifted below the neck (on average).
(we know what black women look like so no need to post pictures).

3) White guys look at face too, but prefer a sexy look, to an innocent look (most of the time)…which is very different from Asian guys. They like smooth small facial features, but they also tend to like a more dominant masculine look on women (think Angelina Jolie who is not girlish in the least). White men also put emphasis on boobs and legs, not so much butt (although they tend to not like them very big, flat and narrow is superior to big and wide or big and bubbled for most white guys). Some do like bigger butts, but not usually as big as black men prefer. Blonds still hold a special place in a white man’s heart as well. I would say the stereotype of a hot white woman would be Rebecca Romijn.

organizingla.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/rebecca_romijn_1.jpg

4) Hispanics being mixed race are interesting…
They tend to like women to have white, fine facial features with that sexy look, girlish attitudes but able to get loud and aggressive as well…they also tend to like hour glass shapes and big butts. They are very interesting. I think most Hispanic men prefer blond women…but since there are few of them in Latin America, they go primarily for light skin.
There are other groups…like Native Americans, Aborigines, Arabs, whatever…but who cares what they like.

Actually Arabs (in my experience) tend to go for a similar type of woman to white men, just seem to prefer bigger bodies, so maybe something similar to Hispanic women (without the big butt)…I would say the same for Indians.
Actually I think given a preference most black men would prefer Hispanic women over black women (Beyounce for instance and Halle Berry could easily be Hispanic they definitely do not look like traditional black African women at all)…the thing is they have to look “somewhat black” so black men can fill they are “keeping it real” and not “dating out” although their wife/girlfriend is like 75% white genetically.
Obvious there is a lot of overlap. I’m making generalizations.

I think my #1 preference is