>Perhaps it is unfair for us to put our hopes and dreams on the shoulders of young women ....

Is this because they are female, or doomed to represent the race - a feat no individual or duo can, or should be asked to, do.

I follow tennis quite a bit. I will say when the Williams sisters first came up, they came up hard. It was true they were far and away better (more aggressive and stronger) than their female opponents. No doubt, they were superior athletes.

They are getting older though and Venus is not in as good of shape as she used to be.

Serena still has some time left in the sport to be a top competitor.

I think what has happened to them is the same thing that happened to Anna Kournakova...only difference is she barely ever won anything. She got distracted and was more into doing model suits and celebrity events than serious tennis competition.

As far as the attack on "blond and whitier" the French, Swiss and Russians (also other Eastern) Europeans)have turned up their game and they are younger. They are meeting the challenge of a new level of tennis, basically what you are seeing is they are "catching up" and the Williams sisters are getting older at the same time.

I also think that the Russians (examples...Maria Sharapova) are learning to compensate for the raw power of the Williams sisters. Lets face it, they are bigger and more muscular and are hitting the ball more similar to a weaker man than the classic female tennis player. That was almost unheard of. What the Europeans are doing is learning to play smarter...to be more accurate...they might not hit as hard but they are learning to be more skillful with moving the ball than they had to be in the past, so they are winning more against the Williams sisters.

Also I think the "Disillusioned tennis fans say the sisters are washed up, being outshined by blonder, whiter players from places like Moscow and Siberia."

I would not say this. I think people like Anna Kournakova and Maria Sharapova get a lot of attention (although they are not nearly as good as the William sisters) because they are hot.

I'm sorry, this is not a racial issue. There are hot black women, but the Williams sisters are not in that group. They look like drag queens at best.

So the Russian chicks get more exposure just due to the hotness factor, has nothing to do with their tennis ability.

Some of the other Tennis stars from France and Switzerland are not hot either and have beat the Williams sisters and get less attention than them.

Yes the world is not fair...what else is new?

To qualify the hotness factor...

pictures speak louder than words:

Kournikova:

//poze.f3.ro/anna-kournikova/Anna-Kournikova_1.jpg

Sharapova:

//www.newizv.ru/images/photos/big/20041227193159_23-sharapova.jpg

Serena:

//pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00173/Serena_Williams_173423a.jpg

Hingis:

//martinahingis.sexysportschicks.com/images/martina_hingis.jpg

Now lets keep it real, the last two, one white, one black will not get the attention of the first two in any country in the world. sorry. Maria Sharapova has her own damn song for Christ sakes...

LOL...God she is fine...:-) Next wife, will be a mail order bride from the Former Soviet Union no doubt!!!!

To qualify the hotness factor...

pictures speak louder than words:

Kournikova:

poze.f3.ro/anna-kournikova/Anna-Kournikova_1.jpg

Sharapova:

www.newizv.ru/images/photos/big/20041227193159_23-sharapova.jpg

Serena:

pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00173/Serena_Williams_173423a.jpg

Hingis:

martinahingis.sexysportschicks.com/images/martina_hingis.jpg

Now lets keep it real, the last two, one white, one black will not get the attention of the first two in any country in the world. sorry. Maria Sharapova has her own damn song for Christ sakes...

LOL...God she is fine...:-) Next wife, will be a mail order bride from the Former Soviet Union no doubt!!!!

Pro McGee here.

Hotness, as always, is in the eye of the beholder.

Anonymous:

are you a male or a female?

I hope nobody here is trying to suggest that Sharapova or Kournakova are hotter than Serena Williams. Because she is awesome.

bigmaconcampus:

Uhm...if you like women who like transvestites...well...that's your thing it is 2006, I won't judge you.

There is a reason Serena is with a short ugly white guy.

No brother of similar wealth wants that...believe it.

Like I said it is nothing to do with race, there are fine black women all over this countries. Beautiful!

The Williams sisters are not in that group.

Sorry but Kournakova and Sharapova are off the chain...I am pretty sure if I did an internationalpoll (and excluded predominately white nations) 75% of men or more will say they are hotter than the Williams sisters. I would bet all the money, car, stock, 401K, etc I have.

You want to see the white Tennis equivalent of the Williams sisters?

No problem...there are some butt ugly white chicks on the tennis circut as well...

Mauresmo

i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/tennis/09/13/bc.ten.rankings.ap/p1_mauresmo_ap.jpg

martinahingis.sexysportschicks.com/images/martina_hingis.jpg

Both damn good tennis stars booth butt ugly. Just like the Williams sisters.

If any of them were on the street and not famous I would not look at them twice, besides to note how ugly they are. That is for real. :-)

is this not beautiful?

http://i.cnn.net/si/pr/subs/swimsuit/images/03_swilliams_01.jpg

Christophe:

Dude...look at her face!!!

You are one of those brothers who are mesmerized by a big butt and big breast no matter if it was on the Elephant Man. LOL

A transvestite can have a fly body... Serena is BIG...Serena is as likely as big as you are...this is not a "girlly girl" trust me. I have been to a match and seen them fairly close.

Sharapova is 6 foot tall but thin. Probably 140lbs max. Venus is thin too but muscular, Serena is built like a mack truck!!! Hell I'm 6'3" and weight 210lb I am almost certain she weights at least 180 or more. If I wanted a woman as big as me I would just be gay...

Like I said if you are into transi types...it is 2006...more power to you I won't hate. LOL

This is why Serena was dating Brett Ratner...the goofy white guy in the picture below. Hell i can't hate on him, better him than me. :-)

www.mjj.altervista.org/immagini/gallerie/MJ_VIP/images/MJ%20&%20Brett%20Ratner%20and%20Chris%20Tucker%20and%20Serena%20Williams_jpg.jpg

Christophe:

If you prefer Serena to six feet of this wrapped around you then I have to call into question your sexuality. I fine woman is a fine woman I don't care if she is blue or purple.

www.superiorpics.com/hs/maria_sharapova/main1.jpg

Another hot tennis star is this Muslim Indian chick. She has some serious security it appears some Muslims are offended by her playing tennis and some crazy Imam put a fatwa out on her calling for her to be killed.

:-(

Sania Mirza:

www.ontennis.com/images/sani.jpg

www.vgreets.com/greetings/sania-mirza-3.jpg
Gorgious

Hahahahahha....man yall are crazy!! how did we go form a serious post to this:) Ok I checked out the link...yeah she's on point...I had to put up a defense for Serena...yall were just toooo harsh...

LOL CHristophe you are right...we should get back to the central topic. :-)

**Winning easily, the sisters became bored playing against lesser opponents...**

Um, no. Serena is one of the greatest tennis players of all time. Her recent decline is due to a knee injury which is very serious, not "boredom".

Keep in mind that she did not just overwhelm all existing tennis players. The Williams sisters made their ascent right after Martina Hingis, who was overwhelmingly dominant, began suffering debilitating ankle injuries that derailed her career. Serena would have had a much more formidable rival than her sister had this not happened.

The idea that Serena got bored, and decided she didn't want to win tennis matches anymore, is absurd. She declined because she had a significant injury. Had there been no injury, she would never have stopped winning, until someone better came along. (In other words, a lot like Martina Hingis, and any other tennis player).

I'd also like to draw attention to the wide gulf between the sentiments of these two sentences:

**Disillusioned tennis fans say the sisters are washed up, being outshined by blonder, whiter players from places like Moscow and Siberia. **

and

**For me Venus and Serena, the champs from Compton are more than mere athletes. They symbolize the American dream, not just for African Americans but for anyone who has overcome great odds to succeed at the highest levels.**

The first sentence is pure, bitter, jealous rage. Why not merely point out that they have not been as successful as they had once been? Why mention "blonder, whiter"? Because this is what really matters to the author-not that Serena and Venus have succeeded and then hit hard times, but that their successors had the wrong physical appearance.

Contrast that to the second sentence. "not just for African Americans but for anyone who has overcome great odds to succeed". A great sentiment, and the reason we should all celebrate the Williams sisters' success. But I have a hard time the author really means this to apply to "everyone".

It's a bit disappointing that a discussion that should have been about the Williams sisters' eroding tennis skills has become an appraisal of their looks. This can be traced back to the author of the blog, who has an obvious chip on her shoulder about white female tennis players being perceived as more attractive than the Williams sisters.

WTA rankings aren't based on looks or race. The rankings are based on factors such as the number of tournaments played and won, and how far players who enter tournaments advance. At present, Venus is ranked 48th in the world, whilst Serena is ranked 95th. Their respective rankings speak for theselves and that's what the discussion should be about.

I believe they each lost interest in tennis after proving they could dominate the best players in the world and, as a result, becoming multi-millionaires.

I understand and appreciate this site's apprent aim but have to ask if everything must come down to a matter of race, particularly vis-a-vis black women. Geesh!

Hannibal, In America, EVERYTHING where Black folks are concerned, has been about race. Where have you been? It will never change! So when a topic like this includes race-it is just par for the course, and American as apple pie! As far as Serena dating white, she has the same need to feel she is moving up in class and status, as black men who date white women. They are all victims of a racist soceity that values whites and de-values blacks. Serena's (and also her mom's) blond wigs, are another manifestation of her twisted value system. Tiger Woods has the same twisted world-view as well.

There was absolutely no reasson for race to be interjected into this topic. That was the choice of the author. After the novelty of the sisters race and rags to riches story wore off, the story was of how they change womens tennis with there athleticism and power, (same thing tiger woods did in golf), and how they came to dominate the game because of it. As another poster noted, their shooting star careers is nothing new in womens tennis, it's actually par for the course with a few exceptions. This article is a clear example with our preocuppation and fixation with race. Some just have to find and exploit the racial angle in everything.

bennie :

you have got to be joking me. Serena and her mother where blond wigs because they are inherently ghetto.

You don't see middle class blacks (who tend to have a lot more contact with whites) doing that nonsense on the regular.

Tiger Woods is not messed up, he does more to help poor kids in this country (of all races) in a day than you did last year. He knows what racism is, but he rejects your idea of racial catagories...so he must be "defected" to you...

Serena dates a ugly white man because she is ugly and the white man likely can't tell an ugly black woman from a fine one. A wealthy brother won't want her.

If a wealthy brother wanted a beautiful dark skin black woman he would get a Naomi Campbell, an Aisha Tyler, a Angela Bassett.

He woudln't get transvestite looking Serena who is likely bigger than him.

As I said before it is not really about race at all, none of it.

Tenis was more exiting with the overpowing americans (Williams, Williams, Davenport and Capriotti) vs Hingis Pierce et al. I barely watch now. With hingis and the Americans, we were always guaranteed a good match. Maybe Roddick and Blake will supply some entertaining matches.

Vincent:

You are right...it is kind of boring...I just watch matches with Sharapova to hear her grunt and moan...that is awesome!! lol About as exciting as it gets.

>but he rejects your idea of racial catagories...

While Ras would go on to say of Venus and Serena:

they are inherently ghetto....You are one of those brothers...mesmerized by a big butt and big breast no matter if it was on the Elephant Man. LOL

A transvestite can have a fly body...Like I said if you are into transi types...

You want to see the white Tennis equivalent of the Williams sisters? No problem...there are some butt ugly white chicks on the tennis circut as well...

I think people like Anna Kournakova and Maria Sharapova get a lot of attention...because they are hot.

I'm sorry, this is not a racial issue. There are hot black women, but the Williams sisters are not in that group. They look like drag queens at best.

So the Russian chicks get more exposure just due to the hotness factor....
**********
Ras,

we have been so maligned, for so long, along the lines of your myriad comments. Why, when your brain is so large? Why? Is this Venus envy? Why?

luxhie:

You can take quotes out of context all you want.

What I said stands.

Venus and Serena are not washed up.

The original post is not a racial issue

They don't get the attention of some other athletes who are white, not because they are black but because they are ugly.

Good white players who are also ugly are not getting the attention of Sharapova...but they are better than her.

So there is no reason to conclude this is a race issue.

The issue is the difference between superior sports ability and stardom...they are not always the same thing especially when women are concerned in the public eye. That is reality, get over it.

Hengis is superior to Sharapova in every way on the court but she doesn't get even 40% the exposure in the media...both women are white.

luxhie:

I should qualify what I said last time.

WHen Venus and Serena first hit the seen they were not only very very good, they were black.

This gave them big time exposure in the press. They were young, ghetto, and black. An American freaking dream story in the lilly white dominant tennis world. Similar to Tiger Woods in Golf.

That novalty has since worn off. Venus is getting old, Serena is face more fiece competition and has had injuries.

I have stated some of this in my initial posts.

Now that the hype of them being ghetto and black has calmed and their winning has slowed their novalty is also waining.

I would still say they get more press than the average female tennis player who is ranked much higher than them.

Since they are coming back "down to earth" they now compete in a different way. Like many famous athletes they also get endorcements, but the truth is they are ugly and not well spoken so they will never get the exposure that Sharapova does in the media.

As I said neither does Hengis. She is ugly, white European...there is nothing special about her that makes her stand out. SHe is a damn good tennis player but that does not necessarily "sell" stuff.

Ras,

The comments were not out of context, (not used to slant the meaning or imbue a different and unintended meaning than you, the author, sought to communicate) but placed into a form used to highlight the race-based categories and categorical statements you made in this thread, as you sought to tell some other poster he need not hate on Tiger, who, you state to the above poster, "rejects your idea of racial catagories..."

Your statements about the Sisters were excerpted to highlight your racial ideas of Black women, with no editing or manipulation needed to convey an unsavory disposition toward not only them, but the larger group of Black women.

Is it necessary to constantly do this? Do the male Japanese relatives of your wife constantly sit around hurling epithets about Japanese women?

What kind of race bashing is this?
Are you just shooting the breeze, talking out of the side of your neck?

luxhie:

How did I:

"convey an unsavory disposition toward not only them, but the larger group of Black women."

That is nonsense. Reread what I said, I said there are beautiful black women, even named some. Dark skinned and light skinned, whatever.

Just because you are black does not mean you are beautiful that is nonsense.

The Williams sisters are ugly.

I also pointed out ugly white players. who also get less attention recently, although they are good tennis players, ranked higher currently than the Williams sisters.

Your major leap of logic is that you think "I mean" black women are ugly because I said two black women are ugly...but this falls flat when I even mentioned other beautiful black women, so it is obvious I can't mean that all black women are ugly because I find the Williams sisters ugly.

The only point you can draw is "he thinks these two women are ugly".

There are about 500 million black women on earth and the Williams are 2, hardly representative of a race.

Maybe in your skewed world of illogic, but not in reality.

Actually in Japan, Japanese men (just like here) make fun of ugly Japanese women all the time. Often calling them "big legged" or just pig (butta, not to be confused with Buddha).

This does not mean that they think all Japanese women are ugly. Hell my wife remarkes when she sees an ugly Japanese woman in a movie...for example in the American movie "Snow Falling on Cedars" with Ethan Hawke, she always says the start of that movie is ugly and the girl who played her sister is much better looking?

Is my wife self hating because she thinks one Japanese woman is ugly as compared to another???

You are being ridculous and hypersensative. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. The only thing I can conclude is you:

a) want to blow up the situation and law because you dislike me on a personal level.

b) You feel you look like the Williams sisters and are personalizing what I'm saying (quite likely).

c) You think all black women are equally beautiful in their way and can never be ugly.

I'm guessing A and B are most likely.

If the Williams sisters were just as good as they are now and looked like Naomi Campbell trust me they would get nearly the exposure Sharapove and Kournakova get (I said nearly because I recognize there is a "white" bias but still hot women make a lot of money as models regardless of race, looke at Tyra Banks).

And for the record,

While Serena has some other thing going on, can you honestly say that you feel Venus is 'ghetto,' and 'ugly,' with no class and poor speech delivery?

I think that woman is graceful and self-possessed. She is approaching a time in her life where, physically, she seems to embody the stature and sense of self-awarenesss and easy,slow grace in interview that makes her glow. Have you looked at her?

Hell, I even loved, I mean loved, loved, loved, when her little-girl-inside came out one or two years ago and she leaped all over the court like a little girl after a major win. All I could think was,

"in the seven wonders
of the world-
you know she's got to be
number one-

she's a girl who can't be beat
born and raised on ghetto street
she's a devastating beauty-
a pretty girl with ebony eyes..."

Now Stevie, that man loves us in a deep and knowing way.

I could have added your little disclaimer about there being some beautiful black women in the world - i should have, is suppose, but why bother when you use this kind of tone about Black women in every post where you have the opportunity.

Do you not see that ? Or, truly, are you just talking because you can, having fun? Are you really espousing a philosophy to which you actually adhere? God, I hope not.

While seeking to bait me is par for the course in forums like this, where we cannot see each other, and even if we could, it would simply lead to the next level of unfounded assumption about how I feel about myself inside, it's a no go.

I dislike you on a personal level? What have I said to that effect? I wouldn't, not having that kind of relationship with you.

No, Rasfarengi, though the user name inspires all sorts of ideas of your physical aesthetic, I have formed no opinion of you, save those drawn from your many comments. And even then, to be possessed of a personal angst against you? No. We are definitely on two different sides of the way we view the world.

I will continue to seek to nurture, listen, speak when appropriate and ask questions when needed. As I did of you.

You will continue to...do what you do. I haven't even chosen to characterize that, outside of this particular running theme.

As for looking like the Sisters, they are my sisters...i will not blanketly and unnecessarily distance myself from them to satisfy your rabid hunger for heartmeat, no thank you.

luxhie:

"but why bother when you use this kind of tone about Black women in every post where you have the opportunity."

That is a lie.

I always qualify my statements carefully. I often speak about a class of black women, I never speak generally, such as "all black women", "black women do this", etc.

I speak directly about the class of black women I'm speaking of and the location they tend to live in.

These women are not the majority of black women in this country.

As far as Serena and Venus...uhm...whatever...no I see no "beauty" in them and I've "looked" at them dozens of times.

I think they are great athletes some of the top women' tennis players in the world and of our generation.

This does not make them beautiful African queens.

You don't think Venus is beautiful?

God, I think she is lovely.

Serena has a facial structure and features like so many West Indian women that I've lived near, and with (in college), from all over the Caribbean, and after the tension of what they expected from me, being African American, did not manifest, and the 'tude dropped from the way they interacted with me, I laughed and shared great moments with these women.

And found that as I moved away from what women in my own community looked like, traditionally, and came to know another beauty aesthetic, vibrant in its own right, so, too, did I come to recognize, and sometimes even marvel, at the cheekbones, the lips, the sassy ass comment they would throw with a wink.

I don't know, Ras...ever spent any time in Brooklyn?

By the way, if I could go back and reread the texts of your posts since I've been visiting the site, I would, but I'm not going to make a case study out of you.

Had I thought I was misrepresenting your general tone, though, I would not have written as I did, or questioned you as I did.

You wrote that you " always qualify [your] statements carefully.... speak about a class of black women... never speak generally, such as "all black women", "black women do this", etc.

If this is Without Exception, then I am indeed mischaracterizing.

That (possible) mischaracterization could come from what seems a never-ending assault on Black women, without qualifiers. I certainly, as well as others who I have noticed screaming at you, have been impacted by your rants as a general scathing pre-disposition against anything and all things Black American.

If that is wrong, or unfair, or slanderous, or shortsighted, it is reflective of the tone of your posts in the aggregate.

And I never suggested in that earlier post about the Sisters that you were self-hating.

luxhie:

You are a female I take it.

Unless you are a lesbian your opinion on what woman is beautiful is worth a hill of beans.

If I took a poll of just black men in America.

I put up 5 black women:

1) Venus Williams
2) Naomi Campbell
3) Tyra Banks
4) Beyonce
5) Aishia Tyler
6) a young Angela Basset

Do you honestly think that Venus would be in the top 3?

Come on keep it real.

I don't care how you want to play it or say it Venus is not attractive to the vast majority of men, black or otherwise. Now are there men that will find her beautiful somewhere?

Sure. There are men who think Star Jones is hot (her husband) but would the average black man put Star Jones at the top of his list? Hell no.

Brooklyn...nope never been there. Been to the Manhatten a few times. I see plenty of black folks from all over here in D.C. I have a good idea of what black peolpe from the Carribean, East Africa, West Africa, and America look like in general.

Of all of them...give me an Ethiopian or Dark skin Somali sista any day. :-)

Give me this:

Pure black African Ethiopian Godess any day of the week:

www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/sitebuilder/images/ModernEthiopianWoman-205x277.jpg

Over this...pure black American ghetto Queen:

www.celebrity9.com/img/serena-williams/pictures/thumbs/serena-williams-pictures-7.jpg

A) looks like a woman, there is no doubt about that even in dark light, on a foggy day, if you are half blind, if you see her from behind, etc.

B) can easily be mistaken for a man even in the middle of the day with no clouds.

Most men prefer A. Trust me.

I'm laughing right now.

You are obviously a man, who can only objectify women, with the standards to which you hold, dismissing, making obsolete the hundreds of various ethnic groups and cultures in the history of mankind that have extolled the natural beauties among them, and to their own standards, whims, eccentricities, biases, and needs.

Let's say you're Black. Unless you're the kind of Black that loves other Blacks what you have to say about Black people, how they look, associate, define themselves, speak, worship, love and make love, procreate, medicate, fornicate, and anything else, means squat.

Take as many polls as you want. Try polling the hearts and spirits of the young men of whom who would man-on-the-street. Then try polling their mothers' hearts and spirits...echoing over with the comments of the men who came before their sons, growing alongside their sons, and their very own sons.

Now go back and take that poll, dude.

See what kinds of answers you get.

You do recognize that you are going for an entire nation-state of women, absent any particular cultural attributes or behaviors, over that of the caricaturized 'culture of American Blacksness' right?

Your Black American Ghetto Queen...does she have a counterpart in, say, Ethiopia or Somalia?

Your Black American not-in-it/not-of-it sister...could you crown her queen, ever?

No? No?

That's laughable.

This thread has taken an unexpected turn. Interested posts.

What I would like to know is why it is necessary to justify the belief that Serena and Venus are ugly, as you say? why take polls and talk about what "the average man" likes?

The Williams Sisters have been featured in every top fashion and beauty magazine on the market.

Apparently, someone must think they are marketably good looking.

This thread has taken an unexpected turn. As in many instances a woman's talent is qualified by the way she looks.

What I would like to know is why it is necessary to justify the belief that Serena and Venus are ugly, as you say? Why propose polls and talk about what "the average man" likes?

The Williams Sisters have been featured in every top fashion and beauty magazine on the market.

Apparently, someone must think they are marketably good looking.

sorry for the duplicate post.

luxhie:

"Take as many polls as you want. Try polling the hearts and spirits of the young men of whom who would man-on-the-street. Then try polling their mothers' hearts and spirits...echoing over with the comments of the men who came before their sons, growing alongside their sons, and their very own sons."

LOL...yeah you are ugly. This is your entire beef. In my entire 30 years, the only women I have EVER heard talk that kind of nonsense were the ones who couldn't get a man if they were "giving it away". Okay, keep a man, some man will always "brown paper bag it".

Prof McGee:

I give you your due respect, but what gay men who make fashion magazines think is attractive means nothing to me. They also think Kate Moss is attractive? Now do you think the average man of any race is into that? I don't think so, I know a lot of white men who think she is gross...fashion magazines are for women and gay men, not real heterosexual men.

Prof. McGee:

I'm not all of that, never thought I was...but my wife damn sure looks better than Serena Williams.

If those girls were not famous they would not be on anyone's magazine cover, you know it and I know it.

Maria Sharapova or Anna Kournakova, regardless of Tennis skill could get in someone's magazine I'm pretty sure. It might be Maxim and not Vogue, but they can find a niche.

Serena Williams. Come now professor I think you know better.

I would not even look at those women twice on the street, and I mean that with all sincerity.

luxhie:

Lets put it this way. I have seen many many East African women in D.C...I have seen how they behave, where they go to school, what they major in. I know a few.

I would take the average Ethiopian woman in DC over 8/10 black American women in DC any day of the week if I was single.

Somali women also.

Those women have self respect, they are not loud, they take care of their bodies (not many overweight ones under 40), they respect education, they respect their men, they act in a way that is quite feminine, they don't dress tacky.

That is on top of being generally fine (not always, but in general).

As I said, in DC...about 10% of black American would fit the bill and I would date. The rest. HELL NO. Especially the ones from SouthEast and about 75-80% of the ones from Prince George's.

Sorry...I got more going on and I'm bringing more to the table to settle for that.

Then again I'm not single so...I don't need to worry about that. I got Ms. Rasfarengi, and she fits the bill.

If you think I say this with arrogant pride. I do not. I say it with sadness. It is what it is.

Like I said, Serena has chubby goofy white boy for a reason...they suit each other.

Just like Halle Berry has a white model boyfriend. They suit each other too, no one is hating but people usually pair up with equals.

>Then again I'm not single so...I don't need to worry about that. I got Ms. Rasfarengi, and she fits the bill.

What's arrogant about that? Water finds its own level, to be sure.

You're funny, and if I ever bothered in my life to describe myself to a man (and I never have), it would certainly not be to one who insists on calling me the names you do, based on NOTHING other than a genuine sense of connectedness with other women.

I wouldn't allow other women to debase the Sisters and simply nod my head in agreement, so I can't do it with a 'farengi, either.

The careers of Serena and Venus teach better and more complete lessons about racism and Black self hatred than probably any other recent circumstance. It amazes me how relatively uncelebrated they are in the Black community given their accomplishments. (The dad, too. He is just genius, and merits study.) Their relative obscurity in the Black community is very evident to me when I consider the wider spread fame and celebration of Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods has not ever wanted to claim Black identity. (He more readily embraces his Korean identity--although the Koreans have told him bluntly that they don't want him or identify with hin. (Cf. Hinds Ward.) Tiger's father never really claimed Black identity either. (He wreaked of Black hatred.) In contrast, Serena and Venus are proudly Black (call it Ghetto, if you would like, but I don't find "ghetto," necessarily bad--or even necessarily "Black." (Who is more ghetto than Paris Hilton?)) (BTW, notwithstanding racist suggestions to the contrary, the reputation of the siters on the tours is as the nicest and most polite and respectful. They are the biggest, very religious (J.Witnesses), very protected nerds. How is that not apparent to anyone who can see Black adn not see street?)) The sisters concentrate their charity work in the Black community--exclusively in the Black community. They do not shirk the idetification (although they have very nerdy, and sometimes "white influenced" tastes. Serena said she won the Australian Open two years ago because she wanted to get the attention of the lead singer of Green Day, who would be playing in Australia, the day of Serena's win.) Despite the sisters great efforts, Black male commentators regularly ignore the sisters (though they never seem to miss a moment to salivate over Tiger Woods--as if Tiger is representing the race, proving to the "Man" Black prowess. Ridiculous!) and too many times when lay people talk of sisters, they talk just about their weaves--not their talent--or having their children emulate the sisters. Black people want them to represent an affirming look, one that is also appealing to whites. I don't know. (Cicely and Whoopi suffered the same fate. Hatred of African purity--hatred of self.)

The other self-hating jibberish that gets too often repeated is that the sisters' declining rank is simply due to their disinterest. Why can't we ever take an independent searching view of ourselves? Attribute to us humanity? Let's not just regurgitate what we should presume to be hateful things promulgated by the white media. Why not presume the best of us--and then possibly develop an ability to celebrate our purest forms (like the peoples of the world who actually love themselves.)

Serena and Venus are worn out--and rightly so. Unlike no other successful athlete of the current era (and certainly no other tennis star,) the sisters have almost never had the benefit and the lift of "hone court advantage." They have never been the crowd or the commentators favorites (but things might be changing of recent as they get desparate for ratings.) They are always fighting against suspicion, innuendo, and negativity. That's hard. I teach. I can't imagine the impact it would have on my body --let alone my psyche and my willingness to continue, to have to teach each time before a class of hostile students. It is not human to endure that. Only because we don't attribute to Black women especially human traits--such as low energy levels and psche damage--we don't first seek to understand and quickly sympathize with them.

And the hotility is really bad, palpable (Navratolova had to scold the US Open crowd for booing Serena--for just winning--while cheering the foreigners. it never happens that way.) I've been to tournaments essentially in the sisters backyard (Key Biscayne) and the crowd has preferred a Belgium over the American, Florida residents--and the American commentators too.

I have had to repeatedly call networks just to remind them and have them refer to Venus and Serena too as Americans. They are not just islands out there. They have rather claimed the Russians (products of our once most hated enemy) than recognize the sisters. (Well, until now. They realize that Serean and Venus are the biggest television draw by far of any woman athlete. Venus is the most recongizable female athlete in the WORLD. Serena is second.)

As an aside here, let me just get in the mud a bit. I have pictures of Serena all over my house. I have that butt picture of hers autographed in my house. Every guy wants it. My nephews set her picture, frontal, no butt, up as their background. She is considered beautiful, hot and fine. Sharapova, on the other hand, doesn't appeal. Her skin is pale and blothcy. (Bad adult acne.) Her hair is thin, short and stringy (Now, she needs a good Gwynth Paltrow weave.) Her face is bland, with not a single remarkable feature. Great eyes? No! Great mouth? No. Her forehead is too broad, and gives her an ape like appearnace in the face. Sharapova's body is without curves, and a bit concaved. (See, how in the commercials, she must always lean with hands on hip to give the appearance of curves.) She has twelve toes! True. Check it out! And I believe with all my heart--as many in the tennis blogging world does--that she was not born female--and is the product of something strange. "Her" so-called father is unathletic, fat and short. "She's" 6"3, lanky and athletic. "She" has never once presented her mother.

Now, to her credit, she avoids the trashy, whorish look that is too common to Russian women but what she gains there she loses in because of the Nazi-like totality of her pale skin blondness.

So, I can't see how any of this can result in "hot." She is not Kournikova (nice mouth, nice eyes, full (though unfortunately blond) hair, come-hither look, and seemingly playful disposition.)

Ras must think Sharapova is hot for the same reason that Sharapova herself explained the obsession of the Japanese with her--she's blond. Is that it? In the face of blond hair and pale face, you have not further critique--having accepted whole clother foreign notions of beauty.

About their lower rank, honestly they never seemd concerned about rank. But even though ranked far outside of the top ten, the honest commentators would tell you that Serena healthy and committed is the best player out there by far.

There also was the very violent death of their sister, the custody fight for her children, and now the rearing of the children. Then, too, they are injured.

Finally, the decision by Serena especially to prusue acting now, rather than just tennis would make a lot of sense. Her only chance for Hollywood success is now. Hollywood does not have a place for a 30-year old Serena. Even white woman with true acting talent and some with a track recond of good performances can't get work at 30. For females, Hollywood is for the young. The same might said of fashion. It is better to be the young, hot thing. Thus, the sisters are making th eright choice--as they always have.

I couold go on but I am tired. It is late.

What I would like to know is why it is necessary to justify the belief that Serena and Venus are ugly, as you say? why take polls and talk about what "the average man" likes?

assfarengi desperately craves an elusive vestige of normalcy and beyond that, community. sadly, the extent of his hideous psychological disfigurement makes these aims completely unattainable.

Do you further the cause of celebrating the Sisters by denigrating the physical form of others? So often, one leaps to recriminations to defend, when it just fuels the fire.

I am curious as to why you did not word your opening statement with the aspects of misogyny, and the devaluing of women across the board, evident in the lack of glory extended to the female athlete, and in this case, the Sisters. (Except, of course, for the times when we are objectified as validation of our worth.) *sigh*

I am not sure if the above post was addressed to me, but I am happy to answer.
Funny, how "blonder and whiter" is seen as denigrating. In professional tennis, as in the real world, those are attributes much admired.

I wrote this thread because as a huge Williams sisters fan, I am beyond disappointed that they are not playing and winning more. I stated the reasons I believe for their absence. In my opinion, they are still the best players on the WTA tour. Others are winning because they have adapted the Williams sisters' style. Granted, sports fans tend to be selfish when it comes to our idols.

BTW, I will sorely miss Lindsay Davenport as well. She is pregnant and from what I understand has left the tour for good.

luxhie:

No matter how you want to rationalize it, you with your femi-nazi ideologies will not change millions of years of male evolution. Men are much more visual and base attractiveness in women far more on what they see than anything else (at least at first) this has always been the way it is and it will always be that way until we "evolve" beyond it which 10,000 years of civilization has not changed as of yet.

You can talk all day long about personality and inner beauty all you want but at the end of the day that only goes so far in the mass appeal popularity contest with men.

Oh, I'm sorry, did you not understand the qualities that bespoke of more than a surface beauty, and recognize that to be an essential part of beauty?

Oh...we are speaking at a pre-k level. got it.

My darling, Venus is still in there.

Femi-Nazi? Even your wife is my sister, and I don't choose to give her the back of my head, or my hand.

Women are often surprised that I will not engage in their pettiness as well, and then want to call me idealistic, and then attack for reasons that they feel "advantage" me over other women, thereby dismissing my comments.

I'll be your Femi-Nazi, I'll be the necessary bitch that Judy Simmons spoke of in Essence about twenty years ago. And I'll carry the flags proudly.

By the way...in a dark alley, or a crowded elevator, I'd be the only one not shirking away from your Blackness, I'd be the one there to tell you that the one that hurt you deeply doesn't have to be the reason you denigrate your daughter when she wants to sport cornrows and call herself hapa.

I'd be the one there to welcome your wife into a room full of sisters giving nothing but shade as she enters with her straight black hair and cafe-au-lait children on the first day of kindergarten, or Jack and Jill, or parents' welcome to the BSU at Stanford. Or Dillard. Or Cincinnati State.

There's a storm coming , and you are not going to be prepared for it. Reach out to me. I'll help you get through it.

Pro McGhee:

How you could construe my posting, sans any reference to whose prior posting I was replying (my bad), is beyond me.

I heard you smile, a smug, smack-you-on-the-back-of-the-hand little thing, and found it amusing, though unnecessary. Luxhie is not hypersensitive that way.

I was addressing Wolf.

Less than denigrating Sharapova, I was mocking Ras. I was again questioning whether he had not assumed a white supremacist, anti-black standard of beauty as even according to broader white conventional standards, Sharapova wouldn't make the beauty grade. So, the question asked, is she "hot" or is she just a great"white" hope --with twelve toes? (I also think she is gay. She has shown no interests in boys.)

But, Luxhie, you are sensing something right: of course, I don't find Sharapova remotely physically attractive either (and partly because she doesn't have a body shape that appeals to me.) And, I agree, in a conversation about tennis performance, a conversation abut a player's attractiveness should be besides the point. But it wasn't in this discussion. It became a point, and I was responding to it--to get past it. Moreover, I have found that taking a person's argument on its own terms is an effective way to beat an argument back--to work within a person's own value system. You apparently prefer a different approach: to sit on a high hourse and try to uselessly proselytize. (I know it makes you feel good about yourself but I wonder whether it ever moves anyone.) I find that creating the cognitive dissonance ("I said I was preferred the "hot" but here I am celebrating a person I would otherwise consider a circus freak might") might trigger the awakining needed to move the person on.

Finally, outside of a conversation about tennis, physical human beauty and luscious body forms are merit conversation. Works of great art that should be celebrated. No different from a great mind, great talent, or great back hand.

I was simply mocking Ras, allowing him on his own terms. (Ras claimed to be just alerting to the "hot" yet he celebrates a twelve-toe circus freak who clearly doesn't have the slightest interest in boys. Is she "hot" or is she just getting a white pass?)

I was hoping to create in Ras the cognitive dissonace that might expand him. But, you are right, too, I don't find Sharapova attractive, and that is not unrelated to the fact that she is not fine.

And you're right that as a conversation about tennis, Sharapova's atractiveness is irrelevant. Sadly, this conversation wasn't just about tennis. And if it weren't about tennis--and a general one, there is nothing wrong with observing the attractiveness of a woman's form--even the relative attractiveness of her form.

Beauty is deserving of pause and comment!

High horse? Proselytize?

Please, I offered up counterpoint to his myopic argument, and my defense of the merits of the counterpoint.

No one is going to be swayed by my speech unless they are so given, as with Ras'.

Beauty did become an issue here, true, and that is why we are both still posting. Ras' line of discussion being sophomoric, moronic and rather devolved for modern man, has no force of authority.

Wolf:

If you want to turn this into a discussion about beauty/tastes/and race, particularly my tastes...well I do find Sharapova far more attractive than Serena..but is her or Serena my personal preference? HELL NO.

Is more most people like oranges and Sharapova is close to an orange, but Serena is a lemon. Personally I prefer grapes, and I can go for an orange, but I don't like lemons. That's about where it is at.

I stand by what I said, Serena is butt ugly to me. Nothing you can say is going to change that. She has a body like a pro-wrestler transvestite and a face like a man. I don't care if I'm the most politically incorrect black man in America...I won't bite my tongue to make afro-centrist and femi-nazis happy.

I’m a grown man. There is not cognitive dissonance here. I know what I like on a personal level. To be honest I can find and appreciate beauty in any race/ethnicity of woman, however we all have preferences. I have remarked on some beautiful light skinned and dark skinned black women in this thread. I have also stated a preference for African women above African American women given a choice…due to average disposition.

My opinion of other men’s opinions and my own in regard to the physical beauty of women:

My opinion although maybe considered racist by some is as follows (this is all based on averages, not extremes)…I think it is just evolution…based on what was important to people in the regions…this had selective pressure on women, because men are high visual compared to women.

1) Asian men (from Asia) tend to like cute innocent look women. They like girlish types. I have rarely met an Asian man who really looks at a woman’s body more than her face. So face is important and the woman better look as feminine (to them girlish as possible)….hence most Asian women look this way and many act this way (at least around men they like). She also better be white (as in skin color not race)…think Zhang Zhiyi and Gong Li.
http://zhangziyi.free.fr/Photos/Hero/moon2.jpg
http://www.chicodeluigi.it/portraits/GONG%20LI.jpg (this chick is 40 years old BTW).

2) Black guys are almost polar opposite. They tend to view face as less than body. Most black men will date a woman with a manly looking face (by anyone else’s standards) as long as she has big boobs and especially a big bubble butt. I’ve seen this over and over again. (Hence why some brothers can think the Williams Sisters are fine and most nonblack men think they look like transvestites, he is not really looking at their face). Hence black women might not have the smoothest of facial features but they tend to have more of an hour glass figure (unless they are overweight, which 60-70% of black women are in America). Still I think black women are not particularly gifted above the neck (on average)…hey no one is perfect. Asian women are not particularly gifted below the neck (on average).
(we know what black women look like so no need to post pictures).

3) White guys look at face too, but prefer a sexy look, to an innocent look (most of the time)…which is very different from Asian guys. They like smooth small facial features, but they also tend to like a more dominant masculine look on women (think Angelina Jolie who is not girlish in the least). White men also put emphasis on boobs and legs, not so much butt (although they tend to not like them very big, flat and narrow is superior to big and wide or big and bubbled for most white guys). Some do like bigger butts, but not usually as big as black men prefer. Blonds still hold a special place in a white man’s heart as well. I would say the stereotype of a hot white woman would be Rebecca Romijn.

organizingla.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/rebecca_romijn_1.jpg

4) Hispanics being mixed race are interesting…
They tend to like women to have white, fine facial features with that sexy look, girlish attitudes but able to get loud and aggressive as well…they also tend to like hour glass shapes and big butts. They are very interesting. I think most Hispanic men prefer blond women…but since there are few of them in Latin America, they go primarily for light skin.
There are other groups…like Native Americans, Aborigines, Arabs, whatever…but who cares what they like.

Actually Arabs (in my experience) tend to go for a similar type of woman to white men, just seem to prefer bigger bodies, so maybe something similar to Hispanic women (without the big butt)…I would say the same for Indians.
Actually I think given a preference most black men would prefer Hispanic women over black women (Beyounce for instance and Halle Berry could easily be Hispanic they definitely do not look like traditional black African women at all)…the thing is they have to look “somewhat black” so black men can fill they are “keeping it real” and not “dating out” although their wife/girlfriend is like 75% white genetically.
Obvious there is a lot of overlap. I’m making generalizations.

I think my #1 preference is Mediterranean women. I’ve thought about this a lot. I’m married to an East Asian woman who I love, but all other things being equal my preference is for Greeks, Italian, a lot of Jewish girls, even Lebanese women (non-hairy ones).
Basically Hispanic looking, but black hair/very dark brown loose curls, light eyes (blue or green), not very tall and not short (like 5′6″ max), hour glass shape, round butt but not ghetto booty butt where her butt is like 1/4 of her total body mass and looks like she is deformed (like a lot of ghetto brothas seem to like). Nice legs and a C cup. That is pretty much perfect. Damn…did I just describe Angelina Jolie with a tan???? Maybe. LOL..wait Angie is a little trashy…Ras likes class…that goes a long way…Rachel Weisz with a tan…O yeah…

www.canmag.com/images/front/people2/rachelweisz.jpg

wow...that most recent post was straight up ignorant.

Still I think black women are not particularly gifted above the neck (on average)…hey no one is perfect.

straight up ignant.

Miss Reporter:

I'm not trying to win the politically correct negro award...as i said I'm speaking what I believe based on what I have seen and what I hear; also what I like. That's it.

It is what it is.

>It is what it is.

>>straight up ignant.

Luxhie:

are you heterosexual?

Ras-
are you a homosexual? You seem to know an awful lot about what men like sexually.

Quite, Ras.

Four kids, and a hubby, who, like you goes gaga when a beautiful woman is within sight. Likes to tell stories of his reaction to me when I first knocked on his door...interesting story, but not for you. Definitely life imitating art, though.

I tell the story with a different spin, because I swear I thought the guy was one weirdo who couldn't speak, or wouldn't.

Guess we all see things differently, even when we seem to be in the same moment at the same time.

Kind of like....

At any rate, as I have never sought to assume anything about your sexual behavior or proclivities, (though you reveal yourself to be fetishistic), what makes you ask?

luxhie:

I don't have anything against bisexual, lesbians, gay. As long as gay men don't "gay" in front of me (which I find gross) or whatever I have no issue.

I was just curious.

As far as fetishes...I would not say that. I would say preferences. I might prefer a certain type of a woman but that is not the only one I'm open to dating. My wife is pretty similar, she has never dated a nonJapanese guy before me, and she said if we were not together she doubts she would date someone that is not Japanese in the future. Point is what we think we want in life is not always what we need. :-)

Last life time I was married to Rachel Weisz...I swear it. :-)

You know, many people feel the same way about displays of affection between Blacks, or Blacks and other POC. Many people are amazed and disconcerted that Blacks aspire to anything, are affectionate, cry - feel, in general.

In college, Maya Angelou had read before a huge audience, and extended her stay to do an informal meet-and-greet. Some idiot in line just before my group of friends, the idiot being White, made certain types of comments to her about respecting her work, and being really pleased to meet her, and went on to say (foot in mouth) that during his youth he had known Black people. His nanny had been Black, and he loved her.

Angelou went stone cold. Folded her hands in her lap and would do no more meet and greet. This man had "become White," (her words, repeated in an article in 'O' magazine about threes ago), right in front of her.

-Why does the gay male thing gross you out? Is it the idea of the hyperflame?

luxhie:

I honestly believe it is nasty and I don't think you can equate heterosexual relations (between any race) to homosexuality.

Biological reality is penis are made for virginias. If all people were gay there would be no people in one generation.

I also think that scientist (from what I have read) are very close to discovering the birth defect (unusual hormone levels during pregnancy) and genes that cause homosexuality, at least in men.

I am pretty sure in my lifetime (despite gays outcry) there will be no more gays, because we will be able to test prenatally for the conditions that lead to homosexuality and behind closed doors I am sure most parents will either chose treatement or abortion.

This will be the end of the "gay issue".

Being black, white, whatever is not a birth defect or a genetic defect. It is environmental adaptation.

Homosexuality is not an adaptation, it is a biological dead end.

Watch out, brother, DW (another poster who frequents the site, though not this thread) is going to come after you!

No, I wasn't making the equation, per se, just the analogy in observation.

While I can see where the argument for gayness as a genetic marker being deemed a 'defect,' it could also be perceived differently.

It does not in any way impair one's neural, physiological, or reproductive health, though, of course reproduction is impeded.

The gay community seems to have fallen away from the argument of their homosexuality as congenital, though I do not know why. Your position may be one of the biggest reasons why they have not chosen to bolster the call for civil union, and civil rights, based on the argument, though.

I'm not going to get into this with you, as we both come to the table with our own, distinct views. But think about it...gays are not contributing to the Black underclass by bringing children into the world for which they cannot care...and so many gays (now I don't know the stats across races, but maybe you might seek to find that for us) do really well financially, it seems, in the majority (meaning on the whole).

Perhaps, there is a place for this group, which, while not exactly working toward the end-goal of bringing to the fore the hard-working, driven class of people you find to be the hope of the rising Black Man, can certainly allow all those so driven the opportunity to find each other that much more easily, being a non-factor.

Gays don't bother me at all (as you can tell), and I've never felt threatened by their growing search for recognition and political power, as I find that those of my friends and associates who are gay are humble, committed people, just asking to be left alone.

Goodnight, Ras...happy to you.

Luxhie:

I think in the end it does not matter what the public opinion of you or I is. In the privacy doctors offices is where men and women will make the decision about their unborns.

I'm 100% certain most people (I'm talking over 90%) do not want gay children if they have an option for treatment prenataly.

-----------------------------

Science told: hands off gay sheep
Isabel Oakeshott and Chris Gourlay
Experiments that claim to ‘cure’ homosexual rams spark anger

SCIENTISTS are conducting experiments to change the sexuality of “gay” sheep in a programme that critics fear could pave the way for breeding out homosexuality in humans.

The technique being developed by American researchers adjusts the hormonal balance in the brains of homosexual rams so that they are more inclined to mate with ewes.

It raises the prospect that pregnant women could one day be offered a treatment to reduce or eliminate the chance that their offspring will be homosexual. Experts say that, in theory, the “straightening” procedure on humans could be as simple as a hormone supplement for mothers-to-be, worn on the skin like an anti-smoking nicotine patch.

The research, at Oregon State University in the city of Corvallis and at the Oregon Health and Science University in Portland, has caused an outcry. Martina Navratilova, the lesbian tennis player who won Wimbledon nine times, and scientists and gay rights campaigners in Britain have called for the project to be abandoned.

Navratilova defended the “right” of sheep to be gay. She said: “How can it be that in the year 2006 a major university would host such homophobic and cruel experiments?” She said gay men and lesbians would be “deeply offended” by the social implications of the tests.

But the researchers argue that the work is valid, shedding light on the “broad question” of what determines sexual orientation. They insist the work is not aimed at “curing” homosexuality.

Approximately one ram in 10 prefers to mount other rams rather than mate with ewes, reducing its value to a farmer. Initially, the publicly funded project aimed to improve the productivity of herds.

The scientists have been able to pinpoint the mechanisms influencing the desires of “male-oriented” rams by studying their brains. The animals’ skulls are cut open and electronic sensors are attached to their brains.

By varying the hormone levels, mainly by injecting hormones into the brain, they have had “considerable success” in altering the rams’ sexuality, with some previously gay animals becoming attracted to ewes.

Professor Charles Roselli, the Health and Science University biologist leading the research, defended the project.

He said: “In general, sexuality has been under-studied because of political concerns. People don’t want science looking into what determines sexuality.

“It’s a touchy issue. In fact, several studies have shown that people who believe homosexuality is biologically based are less homophobic than people who think that this orientation is acquired.”

The research is being peer-reviewed by a panel of scientists in America, demonstrating that it is being taken seriously by the academic community.

Potentially, the techniques could one day be adapted for human use, with doctors perhaps being able to offer parents pre-natal tests to determine the likely sexuality of offspring or a hormonal treatment to change the orientation of a child.

Roselli has said he would be “uncomfortable” about parents choosing sexuality, but argues that it is up to policy makers to legislate on questions of ethics.

Michael Bailey, a neurology professor at Northwestern University near Chicago, said: “Allowing parents to select their children’s sexual orientation would further a parent’s freedom to raise the sort of children they want to raise.”

Critics fear the findings could be abused.

Udo Schuklenk, Professor of Bioethics at Glasgow Caledonian University, who has written to the researchers pressing them to stop, said: “I don’t believe the motives of the study are homophobic, but their work brings the terrible possibility of exploitation by homophobic societies. Imagine this technology in the hands of Iran, for example.

“It is typical of the US to ignore the global context in which this is taking place.”

Peter Tatchell, the gay rights campaigner, said: “These experiments echo Nazi research in the early 1940s which aimed at eradicating homosexuality. They stink of eugenics. There is a danger that extreme homophobic regimes may try to use these experimental results to change the orientation of gay people.”

He said that the techniques being developed in sheep could in future allow parents to “play God”.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the pressure group, condemned the study as “a needless slaughter of animals, an affront to human dignity and a colossal waste of precious research funds”.

The tests on gay sheep are the latest in a long line of experiments seeking to alter the sexuality of humans and animals.

Günther Dorner, a scientist in the former East Berlin, carried out hormone-altering tests on rodents in the 1960s in the hope of finding a way to eradicate homosexuality.

In 2002, Simon LeVay, an American neurologist, claimed to have discovered that homosexual and heterosexual men had physically different brains. His tests on the corpses of gay men who had died of Aids were widely criticised.

Ras,

Your post explaining your perceived differences in female esthetics among the races was illuminating--or your own psyche.

First, you insist that Black women have more manly features. Is that true or specific to them? I find that women of all races look very similar to the men of their races, especially at younger ages and especially minus facial hair and makeup. So is it, Ras, what you find so unattractive about Black women is that they, to you, reflect Black men--and it is that which you loathe? Yourself?

About the other part of your analysis I disagree too, but maybe only with your depth rather than your conclusions. I find that what men find attractive is in a relationship with their own sense of their "manliness." Thus, Asian men, who don't appear to me to exude a strong sense of manliness (at least in this epoch) prefer the ERASURE of women. As an esthetic, this translates into girlish (non-) women, without a single womanly feature. A woman is defined by the maturity of her body. Without this, she is a girl. A female esthetic that does not incorporate a sense of the form, is not one that is focused on women.

I believe that the over-powdered face of the Geisha is another form of that erasure--nothing. The beauty is in the nonexistence--reflection of men. As social practice, this translates into the killing of the girl child under China's child restriction and the widesspread exploitation of girls and women in Asian.

For white men, their taste for the waif-like, just cutsey, Jennifer Aniston-like (mostly) is relatively new--and is a function of their own waffling sense of manliness. I don't think it is coincidence that Twiggy-like model of beauty ascended as the woman's movement and the civil rights movement did. This is the time white men began to feel more uneasy with their position. Any move towards the now maternal Jolie would be because white men are beginning to feel particularly secure (partly because Black men have genuflected to their standards of beauty and they otherwise have met no real opposition.) Even with Jolie, the only ones of Hollywood who appear game enough to handle her are those of Hollywood who at least have strong rugged manly man personas--Brad Pitt and Billy Bob Thornton. Otherwise, white men are not going to step to Jolie. I also would say here that this mvoe towards the waif-like (bodyless) focus has moved the continuum towards pedaphilia and homosexuality. And not surprisingly. This is the natural drift to my mind of a female esthetic that does not fully incorporate the adult female form--such as the oen Ras advocates.

About Hispanics, I agree they are all over the place with the more secure in their manliness, and place in the world (with many Puerto Ricans (here, legally, country, in tact)
preferring Black women, and those assimilationist hopefuls of South Americans, do anything to be white, preferring white.)

Black men have long felt particularly confident in their viruleness and manliness, and therefore, have always preferred women over small girls. (I think Black people are the only ones who have clubs restricted to the over-30 set. Asian and white men would never prefer this.) (The other reason, of course, for this is that Black women can be ageless but white and Asian women best days are early and after about 25, if there is no Botox or other cosmetic assistance, they become horror stories.)

As Black men have felt more vulnerable (widespread incarceration, negative imagery especially in the face of increased expectation) they have sacrificed their own organic sense of the world for standard of the whtie majority. That's why many insecure but upward aspiring Black men select white women. They may explain it in terms of a preferred esthetic, but they either don't know (robots to the given imagery) or are lying. This is why I can regularly tell just by my conversation with a Black man whether he has selected a white wife--the tortured assimilation of white aires. It is laughable but also sad--what it must be like to look into the face of Michael Jackson.

What, you Ras, says is inherent to you is just given to you by your position as striving, hopefully assimilating man. You have bought in to the hype.

A last note, about esthetics--I don't beleive that any other group of women is as capable of high beauty of Black women. Their shades alone permit a greater array and higher notes of beauty. Then, too factor in their eyes and noses and mouths and the varieties that exists there--far exceeding anything possible in any other race by far (although I can find great similarities in looks between the very best looking (post the eye-lid surgery) Asian women and Black women. E.g., the very beautiful actress who played one of the daughters in the Joy Luck Club (not the starring one.) The canvas of the Black woman is electrifying. Compare her to the pasty pale, pig-like (in color) canvas of a white woman, and I can't see how you can talk in terms of beauty. (But I also don't see it in the bright yellow either, but that's just me, I know.) Then in Asian women, especially the Japanese, you have the problem of the dwarf-like bottom--but Ras even concedes the physique deficiencies of the Asian woman.

Wolf:

Uhm...well I think you are on to something (insulting as you may try to be) that black men are typically considered the most physically masculine men...in fact hyper-masculine stereotypes are something we show off all the time in HipHop culture but also try to deny when whites portray us in that way. (eyes rolling). That being said it is not a stretch to see that black women would also be more masculine (on average) in appearance and personality.

I think that women are not just defined by the maturation of thier bodies. There have been many studies that show men like youthful faces in women. There is a reason that female actresses over 40 are generally not able to find much work, but males in their 60's (like Sean Connery) can be called "the Sexiest Man" of the Year by Time Magazine.

What men and women value is definitely different. A mature body and youthfulness speak to fertility, men are very visual (on average) so these indicators are important.

I would disagree that all men in all societies so define women by large breasts and big butts. I'm sorry, that is a little base. As far as I can tell in Chinese and Japanese history (which I know some about) that was never spoken of as "the most prized" attribute, a in modern black American culture. They often talk about the smoothness, softness of the woman's skin. Her graceful walk and movements. Her voice, the silkiness of her hair and the length...her lips. I'm talking about poetry over one thousand years old.

They were not writing..."Damn Miyako got it goin' on she got that junk in the trunk and dem dere jungs be bouncin'..." :-(

Hell even in the Middle East, where women were traditionally covered do you think they based a woman's womanliness on her body when it is all covered to the point you can't really tell?

Come on.

As far as women being "exploited" that happens everywhere, not just in Asia. There is sex slavery in Africa and Europe, even in America. Women are exploited everywhere. There is far more rape, prostitution, and molesting of girls here than in Japan for instance.

As far as girl babies and the one child policy that nonsense is not common anymore, old data. In fact people born under the one child policy can now have two kids.

White men like waifes? Huh? Uhm...gay white fashion elites might...but I don't know many white men who like Kate Moss. She is a waif. Angelina Jolie and Scarlet Johansson are not waifs, the women in Maxim, Playboy, and Sports Illustrated are not waifs either.

As far as in Latin America, there is a famous saying in Brazil concerning what they “like”:

“Blanca (white) for marriage, morena (brown mixed race) for mistress and preta (black) for maid.”

As as age…black people who have sense and are mature don’t want to fix with the bad young hiphop thug element. This is why they have clubs for over 30, these clubs usually have strict dress codes (to discourage older thug wanna bes to come in). White and Asians do not general have these issues. Also I think you are wrong about Asian women. I posted a picture of Gong Li, who is 40 years old on this very thread. Asian women tend to age quite well. I would say though that black women appear younger for their age due to having darker skin, which is less sun damaged. White people tend to get very bad skin, because it is not just pale but thinner (as compared to Asians). I would say blacks are more prone to cellulite and serious stretch marks at an earlier age than whites, and especially Asians.

Are you saying black American men (who are an average 25% white) are somehow biologically predisposed to larger darker women? Hmm…I’m sure that the Ethiopian and Somali men I see with thin women who are usually lighter than themselves in DC all the time would be interested in this theory since they are pure African and don’t seem to ascribe to it. Wow so black men (maybe of at least 75% West African decent) have a gene that makes them like big dark women? I think this is not about “biological disposition” as where you grow up and who you grow up around. There is no ‘Universal beauty” standard (that scientist can find) beyond hip to waste ratio, men liking women somewhat lighter than them (could just be a tad), men liking younger faced women, men preferring symmetrical faces…that is about it. Everything else depends on how you are acculturated. If you grow up in the ghetto around mostly black people you will no doubt be exposed to darker (on average) bigger (because many are overweight) women. This will be your prototype of a woman and every man around you will reinforce this as attractive. If you grow up in the suburbs as a black man you will likely prefer something else…most of my Asian American friends (even those who date exclusively Asian) do not have the same preference as Asians from Asia (FOBs) have.

I have not bought into any hype. I am (like you) partially a reflection of my environment. I did not grow up with and was not taught to appreciate the ascetics of ghetto queens like Serena Williams. I grew up in a multiracial suburb, that was probably 70% white, 20% black, the rest Asian. Most of the black people I grew up around did not want to date someone like Venus Williams or especially like Serena (I think Venus is more attractive, but that is not saying much).

Black women don’t have a “variety of shades” that is due to race mixing. Most people in West Africa are brown or almost literally black (as some in Senegal)…you don’t have natural black West Africans looking like Vanessa Williams, Beyonce, or many of the women we consider black in America and they don’t have the noses, lips, or eye shapes, etc either. That is due to white and Native American admixture.
As I said I can see beauty in all women, but the things one considers beautiful is different, therefore I don’t consider any race of woman “superior” it is not about inferior vs superior…it is about preference.

The rest of what you said is a rant based on some racialist chest thumping…not interested in that. If black women were beautiful as you say there would be little reason to say all of that. I don’t see any whites or Asians (but for racists) speaking of women who share there race in such a way…actually I’ve never heard an Asian man speak like that about any Asian women in general at all (maybe a specific woman, not an entire race).

If you want to see an attractive Japanese woman who is very popular in japan right now...I would go to google and type these names, then look at "images".

Ebihara Yuri, she's 28 years old.

1

But white men and Asian men do tout their racially specific ideals of beauty. All the time and everywhere. What is Hollywood--and Bollywood. It is Blacks that rarely do, even the worlds to describe Black beauty haven't been developed--or the language really to challenge white and Asian standards of beauty. (You present them as given when they would be contested by most Blacks. So, you Blacks don't matter to you--and it is not about preference but hegemony?) You do know that in terms of white standards that was much of what lynching in the South was about--upholding the sense of white women as irresistable beauty standards.

2

Even in the absence of one baby policy in China, there is willingness to throw away girls. Thus, the easier ability to adopt a girl from China than a boy. The erasure of women.

3.

Also, you're wrong about the native range of hues in Africa. There is a range of hues--and they are ot born of race-mixing. There are actually non-mixed like-skinned Africans in Namibia and mabye even Angola. They have tightAfrican hair. They cannot be mistaken for a racial mix. The Mandelas (Nelson and Winnie) (also, Southern Africa) are browner skinned Africans. They are not racially mixed. Then in mid-Africa--Rwanda and Burundi--(the most beautiful skin color in the world) Africans are darker than South Africans but not as dark as Senegelese (the most gorgeous people in the world) Somalians, or Ethiopians. The Malians and that Muslim tribe in Nigeria (name I'm forgetting) are lighter than even these Central Africans, near the coloring of the South Africans. So, there is quite a range. Your inability to see differences between them speaks again to your self hatred.

4.

I never said the universal ideal was bigger butt, larger chest, though I do like that--and a gorgeous face. That's why I tend not to find the flat forehead, flat, unlively eyes, and suddenly buttressing noses--("Pinnochio-like features") of Asian women attractive. Nor, the bottom-heavy disproportionality of Japanese women attractive. As you said, neither bad nor good, condemning or celebratory--just your preference.

1)Black women are all over rap videos and black movies...TV shows...come on. You act like blacks have no media outlets in this world.

You know there are also African movies, Nigeria produces a lot of low budget art house type movies. Just because you don't watch them does not mean they do not exist.

The truth is this. If you have money you can promote your image. Most African countries are poor, most Carribean countries are poor and/or small. China (this include ethnic CHines in Taiwan and Hong Kong who make a lot of movies) has 1 billion people, Japan has 120 million, Korea has over 60 million, India has a billion...China and India are relatively poor by per capita rates, but they have large middle classes. the other nations are wealthy...they can all afford to promote their image on an international scale and create great movies with high budgets.

Outside of America, blacks are not really numerous or wealthy enough to create high budget movies to promote ones image, however I would say that almost every major country in the world has MTV and even in Japan they show rap videos, so they see sexy black women on TV...

As far as language, what is the language to describe Indian beauty or Chinese beauty? I'm not aware of special words for that, can you enlighten me?

White people, well typically Western European white people and whites in the Americas and Australia have a lot of money and are very numerious so they can produce the most mass media to promote what they like...it is not propaganda or brainwashing as much because all of it is entertainment or advirtisment direct internally...but they also export abroad to various markets (where it is forced on no one) not all American movies popular here are popular in Japan for instance, but some movies have a universal appeal.

I think in the end because of wealth, people (everywhere) want to immitate those they see as "successful" who "live well" they see them and thier life style (on average) as diserable. It does not mean most Japanese men want to marry Gwen Paltrow...definately not. However I think it does help the image of white people to have movies out there.

i don't feel the need to "challenge" anyone thinking their women are attractive. That's kind of nuts. So if black people had as much media exposure internationally should Asians be trying to 'challenge' our version of beauty? :-) This is not competition.

I don't think black women are ugly. As I stated I tend to like East African women quite a bit and have dated one. I have never thought black women ugly.

I think low class and ghetto is ugly. I think Serena is ugly and no I don't think she is representative of all black women in the world or even all black American women. that is what you seem not to get.

I don't think every black women is beautiful, just like I obviously don't think all white women are attracitve or all Asians (on this very thread I posted a picture of an ugly white tennis player).

I don't think that is a radical notion to have. Do you think my wife thinks all Japanese women are beautiful or all Asian women are beautiful? LOL Definately not.

You seem to think that somehow because Serena is ugly to a lot of people (not just me) than black women are universally seen as ugly because of "white and Asians oppression". That is nonsense.

2)No one is denying that boys had more value than girls, and still do in rural China (where about half of Chinese today live)...the reason is that the boy (traditionally the oldest boy) was responsible for taking care of the parents. The girl was thought to marry into someone elses family. So one of the greatest "sins" in China was not to leave a male child to inherit the family name and take care of you in old age. This is a tradition that goes back for a long time.

It is interesting that in Japan now, a recent poll saw that most people prefer girls. :-) Basically there is not "unified" Asian culture. Asian countries have been ethnically homogenous (for the most part) and indepedent states for thousands of years. The differences even between Korean and Japanese culture are vast and they border each other and have had extensive contact...let along Chinese and Japanese or even further Chinese and Indians. 2,000 years ago there was no UK, France, Italy, Germany, Russia, Poland, etc. There was a united China, a India, a Japan, a Korea (well 3 states), a Thailand, etc.

India has had a woman prime miniter for instance but in the countryside their was infanticide of female children (because poor people could not afford a dowry so they could not marry their daughter off and it would bring shame on the family). These things are not simply about "women are less than men" they are much more complicated.

Hell the Philipnes, Muslim Indonesia, and Muslim Pakistan have also had women heads of States (in the Philipines multiple ones). All of these women elected by popular vote.

I'm not saying, for instance there is no sexism in Asia or bias...but I would say that it appears you are looking at things through a western lences when it is not that cut and dry and these cultures are vastly different. You are comparing apples and oranges. Hell I think Japan is a sexist country but my wife often points out things about America she considers sexist that they do not do in Japan...

3)Our ancestors did not come from Nambia, South Africa, Rwanda, etc. I was speaking about black people in America who overwealmingly came from West Africa, usually no furthern North than Sengal and no further south than Angola. Also Muslim tribes were usually enslaving, not bein enslaved. Typically the only Muslims i have heard of being enslaved in mass were in Senegal...but anyway I was speaking about the overwealing majority of black people who were transporated here as slaves. they were not decedants of Yellow skin bushman with eye folds like Asians, they were not light skinned Berbers, or whatever else. They were not Ethiopians or Somalians...so although I am aware there is variation that is not how Beyonce got to look like how she did. She got that way because her mother is Lousiana Creole...probably french/Spanish/Native American ancestory. Her dad is a brown skin man, with fairly caucasion facial features although he is dark. Lets keep it real.

As far as the self hate comment, don't be ignorant. Speak with respect, as I show you or don't speak. I'm tired of you ignorant ass afrocentrics being disrespectful and ignorant because you here something that does not jive with your propaganda. I'm 6'3 and 215lbs and I seriously doubt you would disrespect me to my face so don't play keyboard warrior on the net.

4) I will say Japanese women tend to be bottom heavy...well they have short legs. Koreans and NOrth Chinese tend to have long legs and are taller. There are women in Japan who don't look like this, but that is the "average" I would say. Japanese guys complain about it too. :-)

As far as the "face"...uhm...I would say that to each there own. On average, globally, I would say East Asian women rank right behind white and Latina women in attractiveness.

You're slick, Ras. And apparently violent, too. Who knew? You're 215 and 6"3 and what? "Blog Man," by day and . . . . (And I know what really got you angry.)

Anyway, I am too concerned for you to fight with you. I think you're lost. But I think I can help.

1.

You proudly attribute your anti-dark, anti-size female asthetic to your 70/20/10 (white/black/ asian) ghetto-opposing neighborhood.

If so, then shouldn't we assume that your whole outlook is determined by your white-determined, anti-black, class-specific neighborhood? ("White- determined" because you don't mention influencing your white neighbors to substitute their race-pure beauty standards with race-diluted ideals of beauty--in the same way they were able to influence you.) If the white majority neighborhood determined your beauty standards than why wouldn't it your politics, world outlook?

2. And if you are so doggedly determined by white-determined standards of the old neighborhood, why are you on this site, talking with Black people? Why is your 20% wagging your 80%? For internet posting purposes, you're 80% NON-BLACK. (Please listen to me. I am trying to help you. You're having break through.)

By your own admission, you are proudly resigned to the fact that your mindset is anti-Black and white determined (by the old neighborhood.)

You should talk to white people, your mental counterparts.

These are the people who nurtured and shaped you as you hid out from and villainized great majority of Black people (Not just the "non-ghetto" but every Black who didn't grow up in your neighborhood, or, who grew up in your neighborhood and was dark or wasn't dark but didn'tt buy into the anti-dark skin aesthetic.)

3.
Go home, Ras. You are lost here. Follow the white light. It will guide you to a place of comfort and acceptance, a place where you no longer have to threaten to jump a Black man to make your point.

Also, for African films, Burkino Faso is the better source. I think it produces the most (might be due to its former artist president) but it also regularly hosts the Pan-African film festival.

1) How am I anti-black when I have remarked on beautiful black women on this very thread and said I have even dated pure 100% black African women? Wow...I guess that brings a new definition to anti-black. As I said, it is a logical fallacy to say Serena Williams is ugly therefore I think all black women are ugly. That is obviously not the case. Serena Williams does not represent all black woman. The last black woman I dated, looked absolately nothing like Serena Williams and she was 100% East African. I would say she was quite attractive.

2) First off ghetto does not equal black. Most blacks do not live in ghettos in this country. So to say that somehow not appreciating the ghetto is anti-black or a black person who is not from the ghetto should not speak to black people inplies that most black people in this country should not speak to other black people. That is nonsensicle.

I am dark skinned, my best friend in highschool was dark skinned...this has nothing to do with dark skin.

I have always thought the model Iman was beautiful, she is darker than me. She is also African. She is 100% more attractive than Serena Williams, and she is darker than Serena. YOu are projecting your own insecurities not listening to what I'm saying. I have never said dark skinned women are not attractive. Not once.

3) I think I will stay as long as I feel like :-)

Crisis!
Can Ras get anymore idiotic. He'll post for hours and hours arguing why black women are the least physically attractive- all of this under the guise of "scientific" evidence.

Wolf my best advice to you is to ignore Ras. There were many regular posters here who have since left/ stop posting because Ras manages to high-jack every thread. In additon, take notice on how Ras claims beauty is subjective (his own personal preference) and then latter he will claim beauty is objective-
this of course meaning that black women are the least attractive. *roll of eyes*

But then Ras doesn't stop here. He claims that indeed there are good looking black women, they just tend to be light skinned like the Ethiopians/ Somalians (many who are very dark) or that these blacks have Caucasian features like Naomi Campbell (thin nose, long hair, etc.) But how dare someone think a dark skinned, broad nose, thick Serena Williams is attractive!!! I mean we (take note of how Ras goes out his way to call her ugly all the time) can all see how ugly she is!

Seriously the guy (Ras) needs help)!

Oh and by the way, Iman is lighter skinned than Serena. Ras must be blind.

Debbie:

high noise to data ratio again. Also full of lies. It seems either reading is not fundamental in your household or you suffer from a serious psychosis or learning disability that limits your ability to comprehend the written word.

I never said black women were the least physically attractive anywhere on this blog or any other.

Quote me or stroke me.

If posters stop posting because of me that only means there arguments were weak and can not stand up to scrutiny. That sounds like a personal problem.

I also never said much concerning Ethiopians/ Somalians women’s skin colors. I commented that Iman was dark skinned, obviously there are Ethiopians who are very light skinned. I never said I preferred or did not prefer them based on skin color as the leading variable. I said I preferred them based on disposition (as in mannerisms/personality).

http://www.handbag.com/galleries/gallery/celeb_style/celebrity_beauty/beauty_fab50/

Actually I think Iman is about the same as Serena.

Oh but guess what? Serena is still ugly. :-)

Notice in this very thread I have commented that black women such as Aisha Tyler are attractive.

http://www.celebopedia.com/tyler_aisha/images/aisha_tyler.jpg

Wow I did not know she looks white? I was not aware she is light skinned, as compared to who? I did not know she has white features... LOL

Nope...not me. Keep trying though. LOL

I have no problem telling you my name or where I live.

Unlike Terminex and people who keep post Anonymous.

My name is C. Anthony Spears...but I go by Tony...good luck finding me...since I'm unlisted and my name is nowhere on the net. I live in Fairfax City, VA...come get at me. LOL

Uhhh, some people are going overboard here.

Why seek to change anyone's minds? Put out what you will, say that which best bolsters your argument, listen, rebut, and then move on.

It is an arena of ideas, where there is free exchange. Noone here is going to bend to anyone else's will, or adopt, wholesale, an idea which is fundamentally opposite and abhorrent to that which they hold to be a deep truth.

In the exchange there exists the possibility of a re-examiniation of our own ideas, and others'.

luxhie:

I do have respect for you but now I'm convinced some of these other people are not only ignorant but also mentally ill. :-(

Ras (or, as I now will call you, after your admission, 20/80 Ras,)

Well, I just goggled your girl, Ebihara Yuri, the toast of Japanese society. You sung her praises. I thought to take a look.

I must say that I was astonished by what I saw there--but too honestly a bit flattered. I am apparently a prophet.

In an earlier post--without ever having seen or heard of Ebihara Yuri I likened your asethetic ideal to Pinnochio--flat, lifeless face, suddenly jutting noses. But in regard to Ebihara Yuri, my comparison to Pinnochio was way too brief: paint on face and hair.

I apparently can't give the site of the picture. I worked from the one I thought was in better focus and most flattered Ebihara. I hope I can say that I found a picture of her on "The Age," June 18, 2006.

Ebihara Yuri could play Pinnochio without adding one bit of makeup. Remarkable resemblance, really.

The Japanese may call this cute. You may call it beautiful (although I know with her tired box colored hair and caked on make up, were she Black, you would call her ghetto.) Ghetto folk wouldn't, however, flatter her with the term. She is a hot mess.

But I don't want to be disrespectful as you have been. I can say to Ebihara's credit that she seems to strive for a Black ideal. She just misses badly.

Her CAKED on makeup is meant to give color. It's not in her apparently natural, much paler skin tone. (The makeup appears to be darker than her natural skin color.) The blush was piled on in an apparent attempt to give depth to the face (something Black women have naturally because of the play of hues in black women faces and its curvatures. This is why Black women are capable of high beauty.) Ebihara's mascara is again caked on. Of course, in an attempt to call attention to her eyes, especially in light of the heavy handedness of the make up elsewhere on her face. (She also has had the lid surgery.) I can see her hair style is meant to do something for her forehead. (I don't Asians to wear wigs or weaves but this looks like one.) The hair color change is meant to soften the otherwise harsh face. (Ras, seriously, are you sure Ebihara is a woman? I am not lying when I say I saw a transvestite on Tyra Banks who resembles your girl just the other day.)

Her teeth are short, and childlike. Of course, this is not a trait specific to Asians (though I think it occurs among Asians with greater frequency.) I comment on it just because it is not thought to be preferred.

The one attractive trait I see of hers is a long neck. The picture does not allow me to see what you explained, Ras, will probably be a short, bottom-heavy trunk.

Beyond this, she must be stupid. Her comments in the article accompanying the picture are banal. But that is consistent too with my theory: those who partake aren't looking for developed women. They are are looking for Pinnochios--wooden, flat, empty headed creatures. [Just this Ebihara, certainly not Asian women generally.] (So, 80/20 Ras, Really. Do you have a wife or is your partner a blow up toy?)

You prefer this over Serena Williams? Have it. Now, turn and walk towards the yellow light.

Wolf:

Uhm...I never sang any praises...I said...

"If you want to see an attractive Japanese woman who is very popular in japan right now...I would go to google and type these names, then look at "images".

Ebihara Yuri, she's 28 years old."

I never gave my personal opinion.

As far as "(She also has had the lid surgery.) I"

Uhm...there are people in Japan with bigger eyes than this naturally. Japanese are not Koreans. There are people in both Japan and China with double lids, simliar to Westerns that still have eye folds...Korea as well (but far less so.

Unless you got a picture of her as a child, what you said is equivalent to saying that Beyonce bleaches her skin. LOL

20 percent Ras,

Skin bleaching in the African American (as opposed to some indigenous African) communities and blepharoplasty, "the lid surgery," are NOT comparable for purposes of this discussion. Given the current infrequency of skin lightening in the African American community and the tone of Beyonce's light color, it is highly improbable that her skin color is due to skin bleaching. Thus, I wouldn't presumed that in regard to her. But because over 50% of Asian women overall (75% of Koreans) get the surgery, and that blepharoplasty has been a craze in Japan for a while, and because the Japanese, probably more than any other Asian country, bow to Western standards, it is certainly more reasonable to presume blepharoplasty in regard to your Pinnochio-resembling Ebihara. LOL

Worf that is inaccurate. Where are you getting the data that 50% of Asians get eye lid surgery...

I call you are lier

Show show proof.

That is outragous.

Here is an article on it:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/1101020805/story.html

In Korea it was

"In Korea, surgeons estimate that at least one in 10 adults have received some form of surgical upgrade and even tots have their eyelids done."

That is 10%, not 50% or 75%...

Korea has the highest in Asia, so Japan is less, Taiwan even less, Taiwan way less...

You are full of crap and you are a racist.

20/80,

Maybe, you actuallly have a real Asian wife, not some imagine blow up doll.

You bring a tear to my eye, 20 percent. If only your self-hatred would yield and permit you to muster up the same venum and dander to defend your 20 percent, we could have a real 6'3, 215 lb strapping warrior on board.

Why would I make up the over 50% amount. I don't consider it insult or racist--as you apparently do. (Asian women are not good looking to me either way.) Would it be racist to observe that Jewish girls regularly have nose jobs--maybe even over 50% of them? Yes?

But . . . you're not a self-hating 20 percenter when you declare that Black women are the least attractive women of the world because of their manlike faces?

So, to talk of Asian woman-specific features (closed eyes) is racist? But to talk about what you perceived to be Black-woman-specific features (a man like face) is not self-hating racism? Or, is it that to comment negatively on a pre-surgery race-specific trait (man-like face) is NOT racist but to comment on the surgery to repair a race-specific trait that which IS racist?

You see your logic is bad. You need sun. You need light. You need yellow light. Walk towards, off the list. (Warning, behind the light is a door. People of the light will not want you. Turn, then try the white light.)

Uhhh...I read this entire thread, because I'm a bored loser I guess. :-)

I don't see Ras as self hating. I think you guys are ganging up on this brother because he doesn't believe all black women are 100% beautiful God's gift to the planet.

Well sorry to tell you but that is common sense. We have a word "beautiful" to describe something special, something not average. If every black woman were beautiful we would not use the word "beautiful" we would say "average" because average is what most people are in any population.

What Ras is saying is, if I read it correctly, (Ras you can correct me), is that he does find many types of black women attractive. He just does not like the “ghetto fabulous” ones.

He also seems to believe (I don’t agree) that every race of woman (physically) is attractive for different reasons. He believes black women have superior bodies. He believes there faces are not the best, but he did not say all black people are ugly, he just claims that is not their strong point. Then he goes on to describe other women’s strong points and weak points. For instance he says Asians look innocent and girlish but on average don’t have great bodies.

I might not agree but I don’t believe what he said is self hating as he has said he has dated black women, even African women. He finds all colors of black women attractive, from dark to light. What he does not like is ghetto women or fat or large women (large and muscular like the average man) other than that he seems to have no issue with black women. I don’t see an issue with this. He is just being honest, jeeez some of you take this way too seriously. Everyone has opinions and taste. I don’t like really skinny women, black or otherwise. Never have never will. Naomi Campbell can’t do anything for me, neither can Kate Moss. I find Venus somewhat attractive. I don’t think Serena is very attractive. I would not say ugly but I would try to go out of my way to get with her. Am I self hating? If I am than probably a good number of black men must also be self hating. I don’t think that is true.

For me, it is not so much what Ras says as it is that he feels comfortable saying it here. He defines himself by his negativity. I think this is Black exploitation (abusing Black folks natural long suffering and hospitality.) I think this practice is the sign of self hatred.

I'll try to explain better. I don't think Ras would sit his 10% Asian (Ras' influences from the old neighborhood were 10% Asian.) 215 lbs down on an Asian site and start describing the female icons of Asian society as "butt ugly"--and God-knows Ras would have fodder given the Japanese (Japanese-Americans) ice skaters--just as a start.

I also don't think that Ras would plop himself down in a formum dominated by Asian women and meant for Asian positivity, and declare that Asian women are the ugliest women in the world among the women who count. (According to Ras, the beauty order is, Latinas first, whites second, Asians third, Indians, Arabs and Aborigines don't count, leaving Black women to drag the bottom--because of their manly faces and that only 10% of AAW at best can meet standards of grace, self-respect and regard for education. (Mostly from Ras' December 29 posts.)

I think Ras would be more circumspect in an Asian or white dominated forum than he has been here. Ras is not a raving maniac. He just acts that way here. He knows what's disrespectful and going over the line. He just chooses not to be careful around Black women. They apparently don't matter to him.

Thus, Ras flew into a mini-rage when I started to critique Japanese women, generalize negative assessments, declare them as a lot unattractive. Just he preened while doing in this very thread towards Black women. How can he see the beam in my eye and not pluck it out of his: Must be that he believes that Black women are beasts and have no feelings.

So, WUNDERLUSTER, unlike what you represent, Ras does not describe Black women as he does white women. He does not. His conversation about white women, for example, is about specific--really, just one--white women he thinks is unattractive (more than likly though simply because she is gay.) Ras does not generalize negative traits to white women--even to some white women--like a manly face or ghetto behavior.

So, his critiques are different and they evince a man who hates Black women. But worse still--again, this is the self hatred stuff that offends me the most--applying a different floor of nastiness to them in their very midst when I don't think he would treat a similarly situated group of white, Latina, or Asian women the same, in their midst. To describe a revered Black female "butt ugly" too in front of other Black women is a show of extreme disrespect adn disregard.

And if he does not regard Black women, he should leav this forum--not because he disagrees but because he can't bring hinself to respect them.

Recall that Ras' wife is the one who has to keep insisting to Ras that not all lidless, short-legged Japanese women are good looking.

I also don't think that Ras would plop himself down in a formum dominated by Asian women and meant for Asian positivity, and declare that Asian women are the ugliest women in the world among the women who count.

He got himself permanently banned from yelloworld forum. google up rasfarengi and find out why...,

Wolf:

I can not put words in Ras' mouth. I'm going by what he said and the context. That is all.

Ras originally mentioned attractiveness in response to someone saying the Williams sisters were getting less attention than white blond players (refering to the Russians).

He said this is because they are attractive and although there are white players who are higher ranked than the Russians and the Williams sisters they also do not get attention. He mentioned two. One Swiss and one French.

I agree with him. Is there racial bais on the part of the media? I would say 100% yes and he states this. I would go further than him and say the racial bais is about money not hate on the part of endorsement companies. The audience is mostly white, mostly suburban in the US and a lot of Europeans. They know this. Attractive blond women sell. Black women from the inner city with strong West African features (and also I would say not the most attractive...I have seen Nigerian women more attractive than Serena) will not sell as much as two blond tall thin Russians with nice features. That is reality.

So I don't see how Ras is wrong on this account.

As far as Ras blowing up when you critisized Japanese women. Are you reading the same post I am? I don't see it. He laughed it off at first and then simply objected to you stating 50% of Asians get eye surgery which he showed was a false statement and he said it was racist to imply that most Asians get eye surgery to look "white" or "black" etc.

Once again I don't see him as incorrect. I would not say it is racist per se to make this statement but it is inaccurate. He did not blow up and go on a rant about it.

As far as the beauty order...uhm...he did not say that. i can't find where he said Latina's were the most attractive women on earth? did he say this in another thread? He also did not say "he felt" black women were the least attractive women on earth. What he said was internationally there is a certain rank. I don't agree with that. We all know white influence internationally...and how that effects things and the lack of black influence. He also mentioned this.

He said personally he prefers women from South Europe and the Middle East but he has never limited himself to that. He never said that he prefers them because black women are ugly to him. He said several times he found black women attractive and named more than 4 or 5 black women, from dark to light who he said were not just attractive but beautiful. If he hated black women I don't think he would describe black African women and even some black American women as beautiful.

As far as him not describing black women and white women the same. He mentioned two white women Tennis players he said that were unattractive, one he said was ugly. he did not mention her sexuality. He just said ugly and unattractive. He then went on to say that Kate Moss is not attractive, well only to gay men. He also said white women have no butts. He said Asian women are not known to have great bodies.

The primary focus of other people was on black American women and particuarlly the William's sisters. this is what he was responded to. No one really questioned him about white women, but he critisized them several times, and Asian women.

Basically what he said was all races of women have some good qualities and bad qualities. I agree and don't find this wrong. You might object that he thinks black women don't have the best facial features, but he did not say they were ugly (as I pointed out) he said they have the best bodies and this makes up for average faces, etc.

The only women he said that looked manly in the face, specificially who were black was the William's sisters. He did not say all black women had manly faces.

So to conclude someone is self hating because they think two black women are ugly or lower class women have ugly styles or attitudes when those women are a minority within a racial group is ridiculous to me.

This is like saying...I don't like short fat Mexican woman, I thin they are unattractive. The very fact I qualified my statement with "short" and "fat" should logically tell you I am not speaking of all Mexicans.

Ras did a hell of a lot of qualifying to try to explain himself but it seemed you were far more intent on attacking him and provoking him then listening to what he was saying.

As I said I find Venus somewhat attractive, and I don't really find Serena attractive at all. Am I self hating? if I said I thought they were ugly...two black women out of hundreds of millions on earth...does that mean I hate all black women. That is a huge leap of logic and that is what I see in your conversation with Ras.

I think you are blowing things up because you either feel the William's sisters are attractive and are angry Ras is dissing your taste or you look like or have relatives that look like the William's sisters and feel he is personally attacting those who look like you.

If this is the case I think you should not be so oversensative. Should white posters on this site jump up and down and call Ras names because he said Kate Moss was unattractive or two white women Tennis players were ugly? Does this mean Ras hates all whites?

I'm sorry I've read this entire thread twice now, and I don't see exactly what Ras said that deserved all this attacking. I feel some of his more angry responses were a response to being constantly attacted.

Anonymous:

I've been banned from a site too before. If anything this shows Ras speaks his mind eveywhere...he does not seem to whorship Asians, I googled some of his post there. He seems to take the same approach he does here. He makes fairly logic statements, sometimes obviously sarcastic, and he he seems to back up most of what he says with facts and logic. I'm not sure why he was banned and I don't care personally. I was banned from a political site because people considered me to "liberal" and the white conservatives did not like it. This says nothing about me on this site. I don't know what the Asian site was like...if it was militant...well maybe the thought of a black man saying something uncomfortable even if true was too much for them...similar to me on the white site...okay I'm finished defending Ras I will let him speak for him...he is a grown man.

I just find the group gang bang on Ras a little bit unfair and I feel someone should speak up in his defense.

The only thing he has said on this site I found offensive was calling for government promoted sterilization of blacks. His argument is logical...that is not the problem. The problem is I find it immoral. However, I am not going to attack him personally for stating a strong opinion. I will attack the argument. As Prof. Jefferies said we should...i think that is always the best approach anyway...

Damn Wunderluster...couldn't have said it better myself...and no I'm not going to attack you. I'm in a Zen state of mind today.

I'm done commenting on this thread after this post it is indeed ridiculous and some people won't get it, that is fine. If they can't get it than it is not for them. I can't make it any more clear.

I would suggest that some folks need to seriously read some classics, such as Aristotle...it might help sharpen their cognitive abilities a little.

I post on the net to learn, to exercise my mind, to challenge myself, but there is not much that I can learn from most of the people here, that is obvious. It is like other heroes of mine, Nichetse or Max Weber speaking about the effect of religion and capitalism on human social development with a Kalahari Bushman or a Yanamamu Indian from the Brazilian Rainforest. :-)

Point at hand...forget them...no need to defend me. I appreciate it but...they aren't worth your time.

This is silly, Ras. You writing in support of yourself. Grow up! Are you always going to do this? Enlist yourself as support whenever you are challenged? You really want a hug to be here? Don't you. You want a hug now that you've been chased from every othe rsite. You are textbook case of the split personality. Maybe, better Dubosian double consciousness. You have spit yourself as a coping reaction to the psyche racial harm you obviously experienced in your 20% experiences and constant reaction by other racial sites.

People,People grow up.I'm 18 yrs and half of the people commenting here are basically arguing about beauty figures in the tennis world among them the williams sister and mostly maria sharapova.Yes I mainly agree that the willam sisters aren't playing their best lately but when will anybody realise that their dream has created hope and inspired many people from different races to push against the odds of speculation,hindriance and obstacles to reach the fine line that is success.They have endured more and more catalysts that influenced them in the world of tennis(sister's death).Still the courage tht lies in them increases their strength and endurance,physically and mentally.So these two sisters are a figure that young teens and adult could look about to.Good luck to them in the Australian Open.Maria sharapova is doing her own things for her part so we will definitely see and hear more from her when she beats top-tier players in 2007.You will have noticed that I haven't mentioned anything about race or looks.That resides with me because I don't generalize with races or looks like some people that do in this forum "Black guys are almost polar opposite. They tend to view face as less than body. Most black men will date a woman with a manly looking face (by anyone else’s standards) as long as she has big boobs and especially a big bubble butt.I’ve seen this over and over again".I'm black and I like women of different sorts not just the typical big boobs and big butt.So Don't come up with such radical generalizations and stereotypes unless you say that they came from TV.In that case I would think you are complete simple & narrow minded fool.

People,People grow up.I'm 18 yrs and half of the people commenting here are basically arguing about beauty figures in the tennis world among them the williams sister and mostly maria sharapova.Yes I mainly agree that the willam sisters aren't playing their best lately but when will anybody realise that their dream has created hope and inspired many people from different races to push against the odds of speculation,hindriance and obstacles to reach the fine line that is success.They have endured more and more catalysts that influenced them in the world of tennis(sister's death).Still the courage tht lies in them increases their strength and endurance,physically and mentally.So these two sisters are a figure that young teens and adult could look about to.Good luck to them in the Australian Open.Maria sharapova is doing her own things for her part so we will definitely see and hear more from her when she beats top-tier players in 2007.You will have noticed that I haven't mentioned anything about race or looks.That resides with me because I don't generalize with races or looks like some people that do in this forum "Black guys are almost polar opposite. They tend to view face as less than body. Most black men will date a woman with a manly looking face (by anyone else’s standards) as long as she has big boobs and especially a big bubble butt.I’ve seen this over and over again".I'm black and I like women of different sorts not just the typical big boobs and big butt.So Don't come up with such radical generalizations and stereotypes unless you say that they came from TV.In that case I would think you are complete simple & narrow minded fool.

People,People grow up.I'm 18 yrs and half of the people commenting here are basically arguing about beauty figures in the tennis world among them the williams sister and mostly maria sharapova.Yes I mainly agree that the willam sisters aren't playing their best lately but when will anybody realise that their dream has created hope and inspired many people from different races to push against the odds of speculation,hindriance and obstacles to reach the fine line that is success.They have endured more and more catalysts that influenced them in the world of tennis(sister's death).Still the courage that lies in them increases their strength and endurance,physically and mentally.So these two sisters are a figure that young teens and adult could look up to.Good luck to them in the Australian Open.Maria Sharapova is doing her own things for her part so we will definitely see and hear more from her when she beats top-tier players in 2007.You will have noticed that I haven't mentioned anything about race or looks.That resides with me because I don't generalize with races or looks like some people that do in this forum "Black guys are almost polar opposite. They tend to view face as less than body. Most black men will date a woman with a manly looking face (by anyone else’s standards) as long as she has big boobs and especially a big bubble butt.I’ve seen this over and over again".I'm black and I like women of different sorts not just the typical big boobs and big butt.So don't come up with such radical generalizations and stereotypical figures unless you say that they came from TV.In that case I would think you are complete simple & narrow minded fool.

Ras likes to debate with himself!

Yes, Wunderlust and Ras, the same.

hello my dear friend medved623

Serena is on her way to another Australian Open title. How ya like me now????

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Prof McGee:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/27/sports/tennis/27women.html?ref=sports

Look like Serena is back.

Yep! Serena gave that gal an old fashioned beatdown!
Congrats to Ms.Williams.

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