H.R. 1227 has passed the House which (if signed into law) will rrelease the $1.175B curently being held up by FEMA:

http://www.govtrack.us/data/us/bills.text/110/h/h1227.pdf

H.R. 1227 has passed the House which (if signed into law) will release the $1.175B curently being held up by FEMA:

http://www.govtrack.us/data/us/bills.text/110/h/h1227.pdf

Mr. Jeffries is right that the federal response to katrina has been quite shameful.

but i'm not so sure that's NOLA's biggest problem. violent crime in the city is absolutely insane right now, prompting people to question whether the city (or at least parts of it) should be rebuilt at all. unfortunately, most of this crime is black-on-black. so that's the issue: you can dump all the money you want into rebuilding infrastructure, but as long as the violent killings continue in NOLA, businesses won't develop there, and the citizens will remain poor.

i was also struck by the slow pace of redevelopment in some of the predominantly black areas of NOLA. is this the government's fault? or are the people (partly) to blame? the answer's not as clear as you'd think. consider this:

When the Bring Back New Orleans Commission met in November 2005 to discuss its far-off plans to gradually rebuild and repopulate the flooded city, the Rev. Luke Nguyen rose to talk about the thousands of Vietnamese who had fled his neighborhood in August. To the panel’s surprise, he announced, “We are already back.”

Nguyen, known as Father Luke, is one of the pastors at Mary Queen of Vietnam Catholic Church, the focal point of a small East New Orleans area called Village de L’Est. In what the Los Angeles Times has called “a model of self-help and recovery,” the Katrina-ravaged district has transformed itself back into a livable neighborhood. Its rapid development stands in contrast to the glacial pace of rebuilding in the surrounding areas.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/117166.html

what accounts for the dramatically different experiences of NOLA's black community and this vietnamese community? Father Luke, the pastor mentioned above, seems to have it all figured out:

Father Luke attributes the ongoing recovery to a tight-knit, connected culture, while some members of the heavily Catholic community say their knack for rebuilding may be rooted in the past. Many first came to New Orleans as refugees in 1975, then as now impatient to rebuild.

but wait: there's nothing wrong with black "culture," right? kanye west was right when he so ineloquently cried that the government doesn't care about black people, correct? but if this is the case, then clearly the government must care about NOLA's vietnamese, right? judge for yourself. here's a bit more about the brave little vietnamese community in NOLA:

The community is still struggling to be heard: The parish has been battling the Federal Emergency Management Agency over its trailers and the city over a planned landfill two miles away. But as of October 2006, Father Luke says, 80 percent of the community of 7,000 had come home and 95 percent of their businesses were up and running. “Our request,” Nguyen told the New Orleans Times-Picayune in September, “is for the government to get out of the way.”

ah, so now we have the answer. these vietnamese folks are self-starters. the last thing they want is more governmental interference. NOLA's blacks, on the other hand, would rather sit around and wait for the government to save them. but the government has proved to be quite bad at this sort of thing. so why not rebuild the city on your own, like other people are doing? why not take control of your neighborhoods and stamp out crime? why not?

the truth is that New Orleans was fully of uneducated poor people dependent on the government dull, a large portion of the city was a net negative for New Orleans as it leached far more tax money (in welfare, policing, etc) than it paid out.

New Orleans was a high crime city before New Orleans and as people come back, the lower class crime will go back up, just as when much of the lower class was evacuated to Houston they started murdering people and drug dealing left and right to the point where lower class blacks in Houston (who are less violent on average) started speaking out against NOLA refugee blacks.

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3636939.html

My point is that these people (on average) were not s#1t before Katrina and for anyone to expect that they will be $#1t afterward is living in a fantasy land.

The best they can do is tear down all that nasty ghetto and rebuild businesses, etc and no ghetto housing.

If a lot of people can not move back, too damn bad. Huge pockets of urban poverty are the most trouble to deal with and develop. In this way Katrina was a Godsend, in that it "flushed the toilet."

It scattered the poor across various states and broke up the endemic poverty and crime, this is a chance for NOLA to actually be a world class city again, as it was in the 17-1800's.

Oh yeah how long was New Orleans run by democrats? I see a pattern, almost every city with a significant black population that has been under democratic control (largely due to the black population) has a significant black population that aint $#1t.

Yeah the democratic party has done so much for black people...yep...

What's even more of a disgrace are the rightwing nut jobs, including the above posters, who continually blame poor Black people for the GOVERNMENT's failure to protect New Orleans. The levees were built by the U.S. government, designed by incompetent White people and poorly maintained by incompetent White people. Also, the last time I checked, "Brownie" of FEMA infamy, was very White, as are the head of the SBA, the Governor of La., both U.S. Senators--one of whom is a Republican, and the President of the United States. But, I wouldn't expect racists and self hating Black folks like Chauncey and DragonHorse to be able to see that through their race tinted lenses.

I grew up in New Orleans. Thankfully, my parents sent me to Catholic schools.

Pre-Katrina, New Orleans was a tourist mecca. Outside of tourirsm New Orleans had little else going for it. Most of my classmates, opted to leave New Orleans after college or getting a graduate degree because their were better opportunites in Houston and Atlanta. New Orleans did not have the corporate infastructure to give rise to mid to high paying salaried jobs to give rise to stable and growing middle class.

Thus, most of the young black professionals who had
opportunities to leave...left. Those that stayed lacked opportunities and means.

I want to acknowledge that the response of the Vietnamesse community should be applauded. Rebuilding is difficult. I applaud the strength of their community and their commitment to recapturing and rebuilding the city and their neighborhoods. The Vietnamesse community had something that the poor Blacks lacked which is ownership. The Vietnamesse run their local businesses and can count on the continued support of each other.

The poor blacks that were stuck in New Orleans when Katrina hit by and large do not own businesses. To the extent that owned homes...those homes were destoyed. They lack the resources to rebuild because they lacked savings .

My point is that New Orleans is left with poor blacks who are uneducated and poor blacks who are simply criminals. Most of the black middle class have not returned. New Orleans had too many problems for me to return to before Katrina and now those problems have doubled.

There are no easy solutions to solving the ills of New Orleans. New Orleans needs a strong mayor and tough police chief. Nagin is not up the task. The police force is under staffed in man power and lacks money.

The reality is New Orleans wasn't thriving as "chocolate city" I hope that New Orleans transforms into a diverse place where all citizens receive an adequate education and where native sons and daughters want to live. I don't know how that happens. My guess is that the next Mayor of New Orleans will be white. My guess is that when this happens more Whites will take ownership of rebuilding the city. Poor blacks are alreading finding it difficult to reubild because of lack of resources. They will be squeeze out of the city much like poor blacks are being squeezed out of the cities all over the country.

the question is why blacks keep electing these inept leaders over and over again.

Notice that a similar failure is taking place in Kansas right now. It's not as colossal a failure, because the towns and villages destroyed by the recent tornadoes are not nearly as big as New Orleans. But, it shows that there is a general issue of incompetance and resource deficiency in the government. Why aren't more Black leaders talking about this? Doesn't it make sense to point out to rural whites that they can be affected by the idiocy of the current government too?

Were (poor) blacks responsible for electing the governor, LA's senators, and the various govt. heads given the tasks of rescue and relief?

The blame game is easy, one sided (pick a side), repetative, and somewhat lazy.

Nola's comments (above) are telling... recent generations of Blacks have been taught to go to school and participate in the system-at-large as workers, far more than business owners. A lack of middle class and above job opportunities (something the Vietnemese apparently aren't seeking) coupled with lacking support for Black business ownership - both internal to and outside of our communities - helps put things in a better perspective regarding the poor blacks of LA (and elsewhere for that matter)... more that the usual "stop being so lazy" rhetoric.

The question is why do White people keep electing inept leaders over and over again, i.e., G.W. Bush, II.

Offa,

black leaders aren't talking about kansas because it undermines the idea that the government "doesn't care about black people."

Steve,

everyone keeps harping about NOLA's blacks not owning their own businesses. but you gotta realize that business won't develop in deadly hells like new orleans' lower ninth ward (99% black). get rid of crime, educate the population and black business ownership will increase. this is why the vietnamese community was so eager and able to rebuild after the storm.

Cmoney,

"The levees were built by the U.S. government, designed by incompetent White people and poorly maintained by incompetent White people. Also, the last time I checked, "Brownie" of FEMA infamy, was very White, as are the head of the SBA, the Governor of La., both U.S. Senators--one of whom is a Republican, and the President of the United States."

Does your statement disagree with Chauncey's thought?

"but the government has proved to be quite bad at this sort of thing. so why not rebuild the city on your own, like other people are doing? why not take control of your neighborhoods and stamp out crime? why not?"

"these vietnamese folks are self-starters. the last thing they want is more governmental interference. NOLA's blacks, on the other hand, would rather sit around and wait for the government to save them."

So, I guess Black folks just rolled off the ships from Africa smoking crack, shooting people and having babies out of wedlock. LOL.

Ok, I don't dispute the points about the Vietnamese community--good for them. If one really wants to understand why Black folks are looking for the government to lend a helping hand, I think that answer lies with the government's historical, social and economic role in shaping the very predicament that we see in the Black community today.

I am not trying to play the blame game here, just offering a diffrent way to look at things. Government action has very powerful role in shaping the goals and expectations of groups of people.

Ask yourself why Vietnamese folks (and others) chose to come to this country at all? Perhaps it was because they were expecting something from their governments that wasn't being delivered.

Government is incompetant? What a shock!

spike the cat says "I think that answer lies with the government's historical, social and economic role in shaping the very predicament that we see in the Black community today. I am not trying to play the blame game here, just offering a diffrent way to look at things. Government action has very powerful role in shaping the goals and expectations of groups of people."

I couldn't agree more. My grandfather used to say that government actively fostered the perpetuation of a "slave mentality" by encouraging dependence upon it. Despite the fact that proress has been made in some areas, forty years of incompetant, inept government and an explosion in the size of the welfare state has left a substantial underclass dependent and unprepared for the challenges of today's world.

I was also in New Orleans recently and toured the ninth ward. I was amazed at how little has been done since Katrina. I spoke with a family that just received a small trailer after waiting for several months and was required to pay a $1200 deposit for electricity. There is no doubt that every level of government has failed the poor people of New Orleans. I could not help thinking about where all the money raised to help the victims of Katrina has gone. It is A NATIONAL DISGRACE!

cmoney:

I never said the goverment was not at fault. I'm speaking of the aftermath and what will happen from now. I blame the state and city goverment the most...FEMA last, but still all 3 were at fault.

That is not the point I was making.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Katrina-Opportunity.html
Hulbert of LSU said: ''You have to remember the black middle class only took hold in the 1960s. That is different from several generations of middle-class life. Many middle-class blacks in New Orleans were the first in their families to go to college, and it appears many had their entire savings tied up in their homes.''
Some of the folks here are ignoble. The problem of New Orleans is not just the poor area. The black middle class is deeply under attack.
And there were quite a few black areas that maintain their own. Tell the whole story not only the tiff you have.

"It scattered the poor across various states and broke up the endemic poverty and crime, this is a chance for NOLA to actually be a world class city again, as it was in the 17-1800's."
This is the most honest statement ever made. It was good when the French Bourgeois ruled LOL

The Washington Post ran a story recently concerning millions of dollars of unclaimed Katrina aid.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/28/AR2007042801113_2.html?hpid=topnews
“Many of the U.S. diplomats who received the message, however, were beginning to witness a more embarrassing reality. They knew the U.S. government was turning down many allies' offers of manpower, supplies and expertise worth untold millions of dollars. Eventually the United States also would fail to collect most of the unprecedented outpouring of international cash assistance for Katrina's victims.
Allies offered $854 million in cash and in oil that was to be sold for cash. But only $40 million has been used so far for disaster victims or reconstruction, according to U.S. officials and contractors. Most of the aid went uncollected, including $400 million worth of oil. Some offers were withdrawn or redirected to private groups such as the Red Cross.”

This news should make anyone question why the US government would so readily turn down so much aid. I’m beginning to believe that majority of the money probably went to wealthy redevelopers or went unclaimed… least the black poor folks should have moved back into the city.

Ken: No, I am not agreeing with what Chauncey is saying. Chauncey is saying that it's the Black people's fault that their neighborhood has not been rebuilt based upon propaganda from "Reason" Magazine. That article compares redevelopment in an area of New Orleans along Lake Pontchartrain that happens to be inhabited by Vietnamese immigrants with redevelopment in the Lower Ninth Ward. No area of New Orleans was destroyed and left under more water than the Lower Ninth ward, where the Black people that he belittles lived. Comparing the redevelopment of the two neighborhoods and then drawing the conclusion that the lack of redevelopment must be the fault of all the ignorant Black people is a faulty conclusion based upon flawed and incomplete information. Several neighborhoods in New Orleans are coming back to life. For example, The French Quarter, on high ground, is coming back to life. It was not completely inundated like the Lower Ninth. I'm no expert on New Orleans, but I do know that Hurricane Katrina did not treat every neighborhood equally. If the Vietnamese neighborhood was destroyed in the same manner as the Lower 9th, we would be comparing apples to apples, but that was not the case. It is easy to blame the victims with flimsy evidence when it fits your pre-disposed bias against poor African-Americans. The Lower 9th was already crippled by poverty and discrimination before the storm, then it was destroyed worse than any other neighborhood and now we are supposed to be surprised that it is the last to be rebuilt.

"Chauncey is saying that it's the Black people's fault that their neighborhood has not been rebuilt based upon propaganda from "Reason" Magazine."

i never said that. and reason is about the most objective, centrist magazines out there. indeed, reason magazine quoted from the LA Times, hardly a conservative or "propaganda" newspaper. nice ad hominem logic, though. very effective.

"Comparing the redevelopment of the two neighborhoods and then drawing the conclusion that the lack of redevelopment must be the fault of all the ignorant Black people is a faulty conclusion based upon flawed and incomplete information."

i never did that.

"The Lower 9th was already crippled by poverty and discrimination before the storm ... "

interesting, since mayor ray nagin, his police chief and the head of his justice department were all black. so i guess blacks were "discriminating" against other blacks.

not sure why you feel the need to lie about everything.

Debbie says: "I’m beginning to believe that majority of the money probably went to wealthy redevelopers or went unclaimed"

This is what government does best -- use other people's money to purchase political patronage.

Chauncey,

Reason, which I think is a terrific magazine, is ideologically libertarian. While I think they're often right, I wouldn't call it objective if by objective you mean non-partisan or centrist. But you're right - it's certainly not conservative.

No one, black or white, is going to rebuild a ghetto! We could hope for affordable housing, but, the redevelopment plan in NO for this housing has been reduced to 17% or what it was pre-Katrina. Areas surrounding NO are swiftly passing laws to deny Section 8 housing and one white leader said outright that his district does not “dreadlock headed” people moving into their neighborhoods! Not only are the poor and disenfranchised not welcome back in the ninth ward but not in the surrounding areas either!

This society does not like to look over its shoulder to the causes of present maladies. If black folks could merely learn that it is the nature of Anglo-Saxon people to Seduce, Befriend then Betray (SBB I call it), we would stop expecting them to handle the horrors, oppression and blood cries of our people any other way but opportunistically. This does not apply to our poor blacks alone but to this system as a whole. As professors, we know our journey was not as smooth as our white colleagues. I believe this is systemic but even if it were simply soul-based differences, each one of us has been tempted to “sell out” our melanin for a position, tenure, curriculum and more.

Our poverty stricken brethren in NO are no different in that they learned early in the game, from generation to generation, to take low, not to be too smart or fight the expectations whites had for them. “Water runs away from money” is the saying of white prominent people pre and post Katrina in NOLA. Take the time to look at any major city with a black ghetto and you will find the original mapping gives the white’s premium property areas and the blacks the wastelands. The same follows through concerning good drinking water, chemical run-off and the education system. My point is, white systems and white solutions are not designed for us because they are mankind and we are humans. We are born with a soul that they work diligently to defile, while they have to borrow a soul. For 400+ years, from growing their crops to nursing their children, they have borrowed OUR souls by seduction, befriending then betraying us. We need to stop allowing them entry into our soul force and start tapping into our God-given wisdom. This is what the Vietnamese are operating on. Tell our people, rich or poor, white people are never operating in your best interest so don’t expect it. There is always an ulterior, self-interested motive with them working (in the long run) to our detriment. Utilize them, get along with them but never, never depend upon them or you will find yourself drowning in NO without a boat.

Aaron,

fair enough, but i doubt there's any newspaper out there that isn't "ideologically" something-or-other. anyway, reason certainly isn't the AEI or the mises institute, and indeed, the story about the brave little vietnamese community would be just as true even if reason were very "libertarian."

Aaron replied: This is what government does best -- use other people's money to purchase political patronage.

Debbie: And what can be said regarding the unclaimed money? The money should have been given directly to the people and the communities in which they lived in.

Aaron replied: This is what government does best -- use other people's money to purchase political patronage.

Debbie: And what can be said regarding the unclaimed money? The money should have been given directly to the people and the communities in which they lived in.

Chauncey,

On that, we agree 100%. Too many people who post here like to dismiss research simply because they don't like the source.

Debbie,

It's unfortunate but honestly, does the fact that aid funds were misused really suprise you? Giving tax money to FEMA is about as helpful to disaster victims as if the money were flushed down the toilet.

"Giving tax money to FEMA is about as helpful to disaster victims as if the money were flushed down the toilet."

it's just as unhelpful to give that money to katrina refugees who use the cash to buy expensive handbags instead of food and water.

Ok, what amazes me is the New Orleans governments ability to whine, when they never had the balls to raise the taxes necessary to make the levies work against a storm of Katrina's magnitude. I would expect that if they had people would be whining about the unfair taxation that the people of New Orleans had to bear when they built a city BELOW sea level. The entire gulf region was DESTROYED by Katrina, yet you don't see the people of Alabama and Mississippi whining at the same level that the people in ONE city are. Don't get me wrong, I believe that New Orleans is a great city and one that has amazing historical and cultural significance, but come on folks, they are living in a city where people can't even be buried underground without them floating up. The city kept expanding beyond any reasonable boundary.

Do we really want our federal tax dollars that go to so many programs going to a city that will continually have this problem? I believe that New Orleans problems should be local problems. It always amazes me when underfunded areas with STUPID local government whine to the federal government when their own shortsightedness and incompetence hurts their constituents, so they blame the federal government.

Add that $854M to the $1.175B held up by FEMA and you get an excess of $2B rejected/undistributed aid in which the federal government has played some type of role. The U.S. rebuilt Europe after the WW's, it can rebuild NOLA. What the aftermath of Katrina has proved to be is a supply chain nightmare.

As to the lower class population - its understood that its largely un/under educated. Having said that, the question needs to be moved to: How does NOLA move forward in addressing the needs of that population? That answer will fall into either the self-reliance camp or maintaining the status-quo. The answer to the question will not be "cut and dry" be any means.

"That answer will fall into either the self-reliance camp or maintaining the status-quo. The answer to the question will not be "cut and dry" be any means."

the false dichotomy of all false dichotomies.

Aaron

What exactly are you trying to get at? I've already stated that I believe the money should have gone directly to the people (victims) via public and/ or private channels (certain allies offered millions in cash and in oil that was to be sold for cash and I sure these allies looked first to public channels). The misused aid funds did not really surprise me, but I can honestly say that I was surprised that money went unused.

"it's just as unhelpful to give that money to katrina refugees who use the cash to buy expensive handbags instead of food and water."

Dude, where are you getting this info from? Just because the majority of refugees are poor doesn't means they are poor stewards over their money. Various factors/incidents lead to poverty.

I remember Volunteering for the Red Cross after one hurricane in NC. My duty was to drive around and see if the people requesting aid had actually been damaged by the hurricane. I found out that scamming was mostly what was happening, with many false addresses and undamaged buildings. 90pct of the people asking for aid were scammers, of all races. So, expecting people to actually use their money wisely escapes me.

I hope that the ghettos of New Orleans can be rebuilt, and hopefully they can then elect sensible people to govern them, not finger pointers and whiners, but true representatives who will do right by their city.

“i was also struck by the slow pace of redevelopment in some of the predominantly black areas of NOLA. is this the government's fault? or are the people (partly) to blame? the answer's not as clear as you'd think.”

Posted by: Chauncey | May 16, 2007 03:38 AM

That answer will fall into either the self-reliance camp or maintaining the status-quo. The answer to the question will not be "cut and dry" be any means.

Posted by: Deliberate Speed | May 16, 2007 03:36 PM

“‘That answer will fall into either the self-reliance camp or maintaining the status-quo. The answer to the question will not be "cut and dry" be any means.’

the false dichotomy of all false dichotomies.”

Posted by: Chauncey | May 16, 2007 03:40 PM

Being unaware of your post, you’ve observed an interesting phenomena, a clock is correct twice per day.

The fact is, there is no one correct solution to the NOLA issue.

[Further, if you wish to moderate me, start a blog and I will not post there].

Reason magazine is a mouthpiece for libertarian interests, which is basically a group of conservative White men (for the most part) who don't want to pay taxes, want to be able to grow pot on their land, buy all the guns they want and not have to sit next to the moral majority types that have infested the Republican party. But that's beside the point. The crux of their praise for how wonderful the Vietnamese community has responded to the Katrina disaster and how (allegely) poorly the Black community has responded is a flawed comparison of the damage to the Vietnamese neighborhood with the utter devastation of the Lower 9th Ward. That side by side comparison cannot be made. Geography is a major factor. The Lower 9th is below sea level and below the lake level. The Village D'Est, or whatever it's called is along the lakeshore, and at least at lake level. It got swamped and then the water quickly subsided. The Lower 9th was completely under several feet of water for several days. Remember the pictures? Much of it's infrastructure was totally destroyed, it needed more than to be dried out, re-painted. As for raising taxes to fix the levees, as one poster pointed out, those levees are the ultimate responsibility of the Army Corps of Engineers. I'm not saying local officials didn't participate in the neglect, I'm just saying, don't pretend that this was a local problem. It was a federal problem because N.O. is at the Mouth of the Missisippi River and the gateway to the Gulf of Mexico. We are all to blame and all share responsibility for rebuilding N.O. Did anyone think to hire some of those poor folks in the Lower 9th to help rebuild the levees or to help maintain them in the first place?

ETS,

oh c'mon. you weren't aware of this? look here: http://www.house.gov/hensarling/rsc/doc/Vuitton.doc

now, i'm not saying that these black people were responsible for katrina or for NOLA's crappy levees. all i'm saying is that we need to stop pretending that these folks aren't at least partly to blame for the problems they currently face. being poor and black doesn't mean you get a pass every time you act stupid.

Great use of inductive logic, two people with "FEMA Cards" shop in Buckhead; ergo all Katrina refugees are headed to the local upscale shopping district.

Pardon the Ad Hom, but you continue to refer to the self-reliance theme? Do you get the "free pass" on that line of rhetoric?

Great use of inductive logic, two people with "FEMA Cards" shop in Buckhead; ergo all Katrina refugees are headed to the local upscale shopping district.

Pardon the Ad Hom, but you continue to refer to the self-reliance theme? Do you get the "free pass" on that line of rhetoric?

Deliberate Speed,

what are you talking about? i never said all katrina refugees spent their FEMA cash on awesome handbags. but many did, as the link i provided indicates. why are you distorting my comments?

and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the self-reliance theme. indeed, self-reliance is how jewish people became so rich and powerful in this country, and it's the reason why the vietnamese folks in NOLA have already rebuilt their neighborhoods and are now enjoying their lives. NOLA's blacks, on the other hand, apparently reject the self-reliance theme. how's that working out for them?

correction: i meant to say that many katrina refugees used their aid money unwisely, not that many refugees bought awesome handbags.

Chauncey: The mere fact that you would post that tripe from your GOP thoughtmasters gives me every reason to reject your assertion that "NOLA's blacks, on the other hand, apparently reject the self-reliance." As I said the other day, you are just repeating the same old racist ideology that has been used against Blacks by the conservative White establishment for years. Now they have replaced the stereotypical "welfare cadillac" rhetoric from the Nixon era with a "Katrina Relief Luis Vuitton" purse. A bunch of sickening racist tripe. Why don't you go back to freep, where you belong?

Chauncey: The mere fact that you would post that tripe from your GOP thoughtmasters gives me every reason to reject your assertion that "NOLA's blacks, on the other hand, apparently reject the self-reliance." As I said the other day, you are just repeating the same old racist ideology that has been used against Blacks by the conservative White establishment for years. Now they have replaced the stereotypical "welfare cadillac" rhetoric from the Nixon era with a "Katrina Relief Luis Vuitton" purse. A bunch of sickening racist tripe. Why don't you go back to freep, where you belong?

I never said "All" either, you inferred it, and I'm not distorting your comments; I'm merely highlighting what you've placed here for consumption.

You commented at May 16, 2007 03:40 PM, that my post at May 16, 2007 03:36 PM, was some sort of "... false dichotomy of all false dichotomies.”

Yet, I just unknowingly repeated what you essentially stated earlier at May 16, 2007 03:38 AM. I stand by my statement, notwithstanding your apparent disagreement with it; irony being that its basically what you stated at May 16, 2007 03:38 AM, ergo my post at May 16, 2007 04:12 PM.

Enough said.

cmoney,

wait, are you saying the louis vuitton stuff never happened? the NEW YORK TIMES first reported the story, not the government. in fact, the government cited a new york times article about it. what do you have to say to this?

Debbie,

I'm just trying to make the point that if we have faith in government to do anything -- provide relief, rebuild etc, we will surely be dissapointed.

Chauncey,

I'd rather cut a check to victims knowing that some victims will misuse their aid money than increase the size of FEMA's bureacucracy.

cmoney,

Are you saying that black folks want to pay high taxes, don't want the right to own guns, don't want the right to smoke pot and want to hang out with moral majority types? If the above values are "conservative", I think many people on this board are more consevrative than they would have thought!

Deliberate Speed,

you're completely wrong. you said "That answer will fall into either the self-reliance camp or maintaining the status-quo."

you didn't say "all," but that doesn't mean this wasn't a false dichotomy. you essentially said that the answer will be X or Y. by contrast, i said that the answer appears to be either X or Y, but it may not be X or Y (i.e., the answer's not as "clear" as one might think). i hope you understand the difference.

the fact that you followed your false dichotomy by saying that the answer isn't "cut and dry" doesn't mean anything.

let me put it this way:

me: the answer appears to be X or Y, but it may not be X or Y.

you: the answer is definitely X or Y.

get it?

Chauncey, bottom line what is your proposed solution to the urban planning problem that is the N.O.? This sidebar is getting ridiculous.

Some people choose to spend their "perceived" disposable income in ways which you disagree with. Now what?

Those talking points can be heard on tv, I'm interested in original thought, thats not on tv. What's your contributiton to the discussion of the problem, versus continued elucidation upon the symptoms of the problem?

The immediate problem is that there are a large number of residents of NOLA whose Landlord was essentially the U.S. government (HUD). Their housing stock is unserviceable because of [insert reason]. In the private sector insurance (or reinsurance)would pay (reimburse) the Landlord for the cost of repairing the housing stock.

Well, the Landlord is self-insured on this one, so then the question becomes does Landlord rebuild? If the Landlord (government) does not rebuild, are the tenants (citizens) being deprived of their liberty? Thats the question that the likes of Locke, Mill, Hume, Berkeley etc. would've examined in their respective eras. The U.S. doesn't have that luxury today. Whats your solution?

Chauncey: I don't have to define a stereotype for you, do I? Most stereortypes have an inkling of truth, but they are maliciously applied to an entire group of people to disparage them. That's exactly what the GOP sponsored link that you posted is attempting to do.
Aaron: Now let me stereotype libertarians. :-) Libertarians just don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. Everyman for himself, screw you if you weren't born privileged and rich. Don't tax me (but let me benefit from the government's good roads, fire department and police department). Just let me ride my horse, grow my pot in Idaho, collect my guns and pretend that poor people don't exist and that the rest of the world doesn't matter. I think most people agree that we should be free, but also understand that there is a price to pay for living in modern society. We have to pay taxes to support government functions and to support or at least assist the less fortunate. If we left it to the libertarians, there would be no National Guard to rescue all those people on the rooftops in N.O. We would be relying upon a horde of townsfolk waving pitchforks and carrying torches!

Deliberate Speed,

i don't think NOLA's black poor can pursue any solution other than waiting for the government to save them. these people are extremely ignorant and uneducated, and they've been sucking on the government's tit so long that i don't think they know how to do anything else. yes, this is a harsh way to put it, but it is what it is. i'm sorry, but i honestly don't think the blacks down there have the willpower or organizational and collaborative skills to do what the vietnamese did. for if they did have those skills, pre-Katrina NOLA wouldn't have been the deadly, destitute hell that it was. so i think it's up to the government to get NOLA's blacks back on their feet, at least in the short-term. it's going to be difficult because of all the hang-ups, but a delayed, clumsy response is better than nothing.

the bigger issue, as i see it, is what will happen after the government saves these people. will they go back to their old ways? or will they say, finally, that enough is enough? i'm sure you, cmoney, and everyone else would agree that they should abandon their old ways. it'll take some good leadership to convince them to do so. strong, straight-talking leadership. tough leadership. leadership that recognizes what the rest of america has known for a long time: it's up to blacks to improve their condition, because no one else - especially the government - can.

cmoney,

i'm just saying the luis vuitton stuff is part of a larger pattern. sure, not all the refugees were as irresponsible as the luis vuitton ladies, but that doesn't mean financial irresponsibility isn't a problem in poor black communities.

To Chauncey: Just so you know, financial irresponsibility is a national problem of epidemic proportions, especially in the Federal government. You do remember the thousand dollar toilet seats in the pentagon during Nixon don't you. Now, the nation is trillons of dollars in debt. America can be forclosed upon any minute! Please compare this reality to poor people, who have lost everything, buying an expensive purse. Also remember, when blacks were desperately finding food in flooded stores they were looters; when white did the same they "found" food in flooded stores. I don't think you can bypass systemic racism, afterall, who told these people a Louis Vuitton purse was better than a brown paper bag?

Don't let intelligence,which you certainly have, confuse you melanin, your soul.

D Phd:

Please stop being a apologist for irresponsiblity you do those people no favors. What Chauncey said has nothing to do with systemic racism, two seperate issues.

Systemic Racism does not make people spend stupid amounts of money on things they can't afford.

Steve,

everyone keeps harping about NOLA's blacks not owning their own businesses. but you gotta realize that business won't develop in deadly hells like new orleans' lower ninth ward (99% black). get rid of crime, educate the population and black business ownership will increase. this is why the vietnamese community was so eager and able to rebuild after the storm.

Posted by: Chauncey | May 16, 2007 12:55 PM

Was the lower 9th always crime ridden or was that condition developed over time? Did 99% of the ninth ward consist of nothing but criminals? What conditions caused an otherwise thriving community to become corrupt, lacking and forgotten (until Katrina)? "get rid of crime, educate the population"... a simplistic and effortless statement, lacking reference to the conditions which caused and perpetuated the problem. Might've well have just said "just say no!". (LOL)

If the vietnamese of NO are only two or possibly three generations deep (they've only been here for a little while), then give it another few decades and their young will be acculturtalized in much the same manner as every other ethnicity has been over time.

"If the vietnamese of NO are only two or possibly three generations deep (they've only been here for a little while), then give it another few decades and their young will be acculturtalized in much the same manner as every other ethnicity has been over time."

Good point, and I agree, but acculturated to what?

I'm guessing not the ghetto, but the middle class mainstream of America...some upper-class.

The out-marriage rate for Asians with whites is also quite high.

Going back to NOLA, what you said is true. It is the same old post Civil Rights story.

After segregation ended (and even before during WWII and WWI) many upwardly mobile folks left and moved to other areas, states, etc. My family migrated like this out of the Baton Rogue area.

The truth is even if you are white in Louisiana, the job market sucks, pay is low, it is a pretty third world type place...regardless of race...if you want to see night and day. Go to New Orleans, then to Baton Rogue, then take a 6 hour trip to Houston, TX.

Totally different. You will fill like you have entered a different country.

Basically these folks were not upwardly mobile or did not see the writing on the wall and got trapped as housing prices went down and a good portion of what was left were the disfuctional uneducated lower class, and the criminal element who could not afford or did not see a point in leaving as they had no ability to.

This is why I say...most of these people "weren't s#1t, and ain't gonna be $#1t" despite whatever assistance.

The blacks who were really wannting to do something in life, by and large left awhile ago...like a generation, 2, or 3.

DH:

Your preoccupation with what is / and who is, or rather isn't / upwardly mobile leaves anyone who doesn't fit that limited definition of yours as being "ain't sh$#*t".

The 9th ward and surrounding areas were filled with people who's parents, grandparents, and so on, had been there for a long, long time. Not all of them are / were criminals. Not all of them strived for that golden upward mobility you talk about time and again. There was a culture, and a way of life these people people enjoyed. Was it something you or I would have accepted for ourselves? Probably not. But I wasn't born in NO, nor were my immediate ancestors. But that doeasn't mean what these people enjoyed or the lived they lived was "bad". No, they didn't live in a culture of crime. No, they didn't live in a culture of ignorance and uneducation. Circumstances, be they political, economic (same thing really), etc., contributed to the community's dysfunction. And it didn't happen overnight. If people - any people - get desparate enough, you can bet crime will flourish.

To attribute an entire community of people the status of "ain't sh#*%!t" because they aren't who you would value as human beings is a pretty sh#*%!tty way of looking at people, and life.

I suppose the two+ years of stories told, lives lost, families broken, and history told fell on deaf ears.

Steve:

I never said most of the people were criminals, I know better than that, the criminal class is probably no more than 5% of the total population, but that is all you need to turn an area into a hell hole.

My fam is not from NOLA but they are from just 45 minutes North (been to both places)and I have lived in Houston, so i can tell you the difference in environments and there is a big difference between how the average black folks in NOLA lived compared to Houston, believe that, the Houstonians are much better off (although the 4th ward is poor, nothing like NOLA). Hell the average white person in Lousiana lives like crap. The economy there is 3rd world, so many people from Lousiana work in East Texas for a reason.

I DO consider them human beings sure enough. Sorry but I don't believe all people are equal just because they "are" and nor do I believe all life styles are equally valid or good.

"ignorance and uneducation"

This I strongly disagree with. This has long been a problem in NOLA...as I said it became worse after most of the upwardly mobile black folks left, all that was left was the bottom of the barral (for the most part, there were some diamonds in the rough trying to stick it out, still are today, but for the most part those folks aren't interested in living better."

I believe strongly in continous improvement, personal evolution, family improvement, etc. I don't have sympathy for those content to live in crap and then cry about it. There were options. As I said a lot of folks left, probably the majority that should tell you there were options.

Those who stayed had the options to do better, but did not. No white man made them drop out of school, not attend classes, not study, not learn trades, etc. If my grandfather could do this stuff right after WWII at the height of Jim Crow, then I'm damn sure black people today and even in the 70's had far more opprotunities.

The issue is why did they choose the life they did, and it is a choice. Short of mental of physical disability, or really bad luck, no one in America has to live in poverty perpetually for their life if they don't want to. America is one of the most open societies for upward mobility in the world, that is why foreigners risk their lives to sneak in here hiding in cargo tankers, running across deserts. Why people all around the world everday stand in long lines in hopes of getting a visa to study or work here.

I'm not saying everyone can be rich, but there is no excuse for NOLA, especially since black folks have ran the city since the 70's. The only thing the corrupt black government did was replace the corrupt white government and make black people in the ghetto even more depedent on goverment, more expecting of handouts, and generally more pathetic and self destructive in their dysfunctional behavior.

If you are an adult person and you are content living in crap and don't want to do better for yourself, when their is opprotunity available to better yourself. Then sorry, bra, you ain't $#1t. You don't get my sympathy. There are many people in this world more deserving, in many countries where they bust their butt 12 hour a day doing the worst manual labor you can imagine (like our ancestors) and at the end of their life have nothing to show for it, die in the same mud hut they were born in. That is called a "systemic problem". This is not what is happening in NOLA.

The self-hatred of a neutered sambo on display: Dracoon Horse at his best putting down his people.

Get a life clown.

Chauncey:
As English may be ambiguous (compounded) by its use upon a blog, precision (as you've) brought to my attention, is paramount.
I will presume, your assumption, that my use of the operator "or" as being "exclusive." However, the use of the operator "or" in an "inclusive" manner would be the broader interpretation in reading my premise.

When I state the conclusion:

"... will not be 'cut and dry' be any means."

I meant just that - it will be a hybrid of each. Government will perform business as usual, while the people ought to make the best of the opportunities (made available to them) or perish.

As to your interpretation of my statement:

"That answer will fall into either the self-reliance camp or maintaining the status-quo. The answer to the question will not be 'cut and dry' be any means."

Which correctly quantified it would appear as follows:

Ax[Rx v Qx] --> Kx

For x,
where Ax=For All x,
where the property constants are:
R=(Self)Reliance,
Q=(Status)Quo,
K=(Post)Katrina.

The syntax of which is really no different than your statement which was:

"i was also struck by the slow pace of redevelopment in some of the predominantly black areas of NOLA. is this the government's fault? or are the people (partly) to blame? the answer's not as clear as you'd think."

Which quantified would be represented as:

Ax[Gx v Px] --> Kx
For x,
where Ax=For All x,
where property constants are:
G=Government,
P=People,
K= (Post) Katrina.

Using the commutative principle, the essence of the premises were pretty much the same.

My answer to the question I posed to you would be to secure NOLA in the short run. Activate LA National Guard MP Units along with LA Air National Guard MP Units to patrol with local NOLA law enforcement to immediately increase a law enforcement presence (the financial burden of which would not be assumed by the city). Ongoing martial law? I don't know. Activate LA National Guard Engineer Battalions, remaining on active duty until the levee issues are resolved. Until the infrastructure is in place, can you even adequately address the myriad housing and social issues?

Chauncey:
As English may be ambiguous (compounded) by its use upon a blog, precision (as you've) brought to my attention, is paramount.
I will presume, your assumption, that my use of the operator "or" as being "exclusive." However, the use of the operator "or" in an "inclusive" manner would be the broader interpretation in reading my premise.

When I state the conclusion:

"... will not be 'cut and dry' be any means."

I meant just that - it will be a hybrid of each. Government will perform business as usual, while the people ought to make the best of the opportunities (made available to them) or perish.

As to your interpretation of my statement:

"That answer will fall into either the self-reliance camp or maintaining the status-quo. The answer to the question will not be 'cut and dry' be any means."

Which correctly quantified it would appear as follows:

Ax[Rx v Qx] --> Kx

For x,
where Ax=For All x,
where the property constants are:
R=(Self)Reliance,
Q=(Status)Quo,
K=(Post)Katrina.

The syntax of which is really no different than your statement which was:

"i was also struck by the slow pace of redevelopment in some of the predominantly black areas of NOLA. is this the government's fault? or are the people (partly) to blame? the answer's not as clear as you'd think."

Which quantified would be represented as:

Ax[Gx v Px] --> Kx
For x,
where Ax=For All x,
where property constants are:
G=Government,
P=People,
K= (Post) Katrina.

Using the commutative principle, the essence of the premises were pretty much the same.

My answer to the question I posed to you would be to secure NOLA in the short run. Activate LA National Guard MP Units along with LA Air National Guard MP Units to patrol with local NOLA law enforcement to immediately increase a law enforcement presence (the financial burden of which would not be assumed by the city). Ongoing martial law? I don't know. Activate LA National Guard Engineer Battalions, remaining on active duty until the levee issues are resolved. Until the infrastructure is in place, can you even adequately address the myriad housing and social issues?

I pressed post only "once."

The only real victims of Katrina were the elderly, children, homeless, sick and incapacitated, as well as those caring for them. Everyone else had an opportunity to leave, even if they had to walk.

As of late, the thuggish people (not the good people) of New Orleans are one big embarrassment. They have exacerbated the situation there by tenfold. They have increased the crime rate in their town and surrounding states by leaps and bounds. They have taken advantage of the system by making fraudulent claims... No one wants them around because they have no sense of responsibility or decency.

DH:

NOLA exists, in it's past and present conditions for a number of reasons. There are dysfunctional, dependent people both inside and outside of NOLA. They exist in the suburbs as well as the inner cities, and they come in all ethnicities - not just black folk.

Disapproving of a person's decisions, lifestyle, etc., is understandable. Lack of sympathy as a result of that disapproval is your perogative. Regarding (black) folks as not being sh!*#t, which translates into being less than human as far as I'm concerned, crosses the line. There's a difference.

America's open societal structure and mud huts in Indonesia neither explains nor excuses poor decison making on an individual's part - and it sure as hell doesn't excuse the persistent IGNORance of those who refuse to see the racist, and systemically preferencial biases that impede and hinder this "open society" of ours. That's naive plain and simple.