The proverbial noose is tightening around the neck of Michael Vick. CNN reports that one of Vick’s co-defendants in the dog fighting case, Tony Taylor, pleaded guilty to federal charges this morning and agreed to cooperate fully with the prosecution of Vick and the remaining two defendants. The trial is scheduled to commence on November 26th.
Taylor, along with the remaining three defendants, had all plead not guilty last week. Now that Taylor has changed his tune, things look much worse for Vick. Taylor is alleged to have located the property that ultimately become the headquarters of Bad Newz Kennels, and participated in the training and, in at least one instance, the execution of the dogs. We can now add Taylor’s name to the growing list of evidentiary sources and witnesses against Vick and his co-defendants.
Billy Martin, Vick’s lawyer, certainly has his work cut out for him. Fortunately, he’s no stranger to celebrity cases, having represented a variety of professional athletes and entertainers, including basketball players Jayson Williams, Allen Iverson, Rod Strickland, and Juwan Howard, boxer Riddick Bowe, actor Wesley Snipes, as well as former Atlanta Mayor Bill Campbell, White House intern Monica Lewinsky, and the parents murdered government intern Chandra Levy. He is also a former federal prosecutor, and intimately familiar with those aspects of law – particularly procedural ones – that distinguish federal from state cases.
A few questions for discussion. First, what do you make of Taylor’s change of heart? Should he have taken the plea and agreed to help the prosecution? How does this fit with the whole “stop snitchin’” thing? Lil’ Kim went to jail because she refused to snitch. Should Taylor have followed her lead? Or the other way around?
Second, how do you interpret Vick’s hiring of Billy Martin, along with other prominent lawyers, to represent him? My own view is that he is simply doing what any of us would do under the circumstances – secure the best legal counsel one can afford. But the references to O.J. Simpson’s “Dream Team,” and the miraculous outcome it produced in his trial, are hard to ignore.
----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 11:52:34 AM Taylor should have done what is best for Taylor. I wonder if Vick proffered Taylor a sum to stay quiet, once they all knew it was going down (notwithstanding "snitch" status while being incarcerated). Vick is doing what is in his best interest - hiring the best counsel he can afford. The whole thing is sad because the young kid had "made it out". I think the question needs to be moved to how various communities define "status" etc. In Vick's case, it almost seems as though having gone "legit" (as an athlete) appeared to have zero value in this instance (if these allegations are in fact true). I guess it’s amazing that he stayed "in the game" as long as he did, if these are his tendencies and values. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Becky EMAIL: IP: 199.43.48.131 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 12:24:49 PM As an avid animal lover I am sickened by the entire case. And I think it's an insult to those who have come from similar backgrounds as Vick and who have become role models who give back to society. Vick and only Vick are responsible for his actions, not his hometown, not the fame and fortune that come with professional sport nor the power. As an adult male, regardless of his line of work he should know right from wrong. This has nothing to do with race so let's stop playing the race card. Whether he is black, white, purple or green cruetly to animals is illegal, morally wrong, and is often a prelude to violent acts against people. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 12:44:16 PM I think it is interesting that Billy Martin (a great attorney) has made a cottage industry out of defending stupid athletes and celebrities. It's good for him, but a sad commentary on the moral standards of athletes and celebrities that so many have needed the aid of a criminal defense attorney. As for being a snitch--I don't think this situation compares to the "no snitch" credo of the streets. Not calling the police or cooperating when the police are trying to solve a crime in your own community is, to me, a poor comparison to a defendant trying to save his hide. People in the community who do not cooperate with the police are often cutting their own throats and risk little harm to themselves by cooperating (unless they face retaliation). A criminal defendant who turns state's evidence was ususally involved in the crime to begin with and is now faced with saving his own neck versus defending some worthless code of the streets and serving years behind bars. There is no honor among thieves. Who can blame them for saving their own necks (other than their co-defendant). People in crime ridden neighborhoods who do nothing to stop the crime and enable it by refusing to cooperate with the police are beyond stupid and are less honorable than the defendant who cops a plea and turns state's evidence. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 01:14:46 PM Not playing a race card - please - I certainly did not mention, infer, state, etc., that he ought not take responsibility for his alleged action(s). Unless you're refering to some other source, you've read meaning either into the post or the comment, which is not there. I stated that celebrity, affluence, etc., apparently did not influence Vick's "world view". And in the case of Vick, it has trumped his acquired affluence, celebrity and status. Where did the mention of race fit in here? Yes, we are all the sum of our collective experiences - everyone. Vick's value system obviously will have become his undoing. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: mmm EMAIL: IP: 204.155.172.22 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 01:21:03 PM Has Vick gotten darker since this incident became public?! Bad news for Vick. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael not Vick EMAIL: IP: 65.32.78.121 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 01:42:55 PM Who remembers the line in the theme song to the old Baretta TV show " DON'T DO THE CRIME IF YOU CAN'T DO THE TIME". Tony Taylors decision came no doubt after hearing what the Gov't had against him and hopes of leniency for his cooperation. If Michael Vick was in the same situation I gaurantee you with the title snitch or not he would not risk his 130 million contract for any of his friends. If he did it he deserves all he gets, if not.......thats what a good lawyer is for. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: RedKat EMAIL: IP: 158.35.225.227 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 01:46:26 PM The code of "not snitching" has been with us for a long time. There are different kinds of snitches. There is the eyewitness, the tattletale and the backstabber. The eyewitness is exempt, the tattletale is in it for the gossip but the backstabber is the worse snitch because, "DEY WUZ DOIN' IT TOO" as we used to say as kids. That's a fair weather friend if I've ever seen one. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: rikyrah EMAIL: siport27@aol.com IP: 172.167.33.68 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 02:00:08 PM I think it is interesting that Billy Martin (a great attorney) has made a cottage industry out of defending stupid athletes and celebrities. It's good for him, but a sad commentary on the moral standards of athletes and celebrities that so many have needed the aid of a criminal defense attorney. I cracked up just reading this, because it was such a sad commentary...an accurate one, but sad. I have no sympathy for Vick. Even if he had nothing to do with this, he was foolish enough to even let the APPEARANCE of him having something to do with it, come and put a cloud over Michael Vick, Inc. That level of stupidity is just unforgiveable. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.169.173 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 02:14:30 PM Don't know about Vick getting darker - but I did notice Faux News had cranked up the gamma on their videos of him, which is an old trick to make someone look "oily" and evil. Check out the surface luster on the suit in the above picture, and any of the vids from Faux. They intentionally make him look more ominous. Now I doubt Faux did it because Vick is black - most likely they did it because villans... Sell Faux's swill. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 03:29:21 PM "Every generation has its time to struggle. There are no green pastures." Bill Kunstler Those who write that: "It's good for him, but a sad commentary on the moral standards of athletes and celebrities that so many have needed the aid of a criminal defense attorney." I find you pretty naïve. How illiterate can we be to the workings of the celebrity business? As Kunstler stated in his last speech, I like to see what this generation is struggling for. What is the measure of your ethos? It is easy to beat on the idiots and stupid ones. Watching pre-trial hypes and color, hope the end is as worthy. Maybe we will stop cruelty against dogs, so we can collectively as a nation; move to ending cruelty against our children. Maybe we may stop producing good looking sociopath. Just a Wish! Give This To Lawyers and Lawyers To Be. It should be good. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: too tired EMAIL: IP: 128.164.135.250 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 03:39:53 PM I think I'm just baffled on this idea of "snitching." Someone who is guilty getting put away for committing a crime? I don't really see it. I don't think Taylor snitched. I think Taylor got caught and realized that unlike Vick, he wasn't famous, rich or protected by a major sports organization and if he didn't pony up some info, he was going to be put away for a much longer time than the celebrity. To be frank, I think the whole incident is disgusting. It was inhumane and cruel what they did to those poor dogs. Do I care if one of those cruel men turned on the other? No. I hope they all go to prison to treating an innocent animal that way. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 128.164.135.250 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 03:44:51 PM Sorry! In my last post, I deleted half of a sentence. Apologies. I think I'm just baffled on this idea of "snitching" as a bad thing. Someone who is guilty getting put away for committing a crime? I don't really see it. I don't think Taylor snitched. I think Taylor got caught and realized that unlike Vick, he wasn't famous, rich or protected by a major sports organization and if he didn't pony up some info, he was going to be put away for a much longer time than the celebrity. To be frank, I think the whole incident is disgusting. It was inhumane and cruel what they did to those poor dogs. Do I care if one of those cruel men turned on the other? No. I hope they all go to prison to treating an innocent animal that way. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 162.6.228.196 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 04:11:51 PM Where's Messy Jesse to race bait? As Lee Peterson said: Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson is the founder of B.O.N.D., the Brotherhood Organization of a New Destiny, a Los Angeles-based organization whose motto is, "Rebuilding the Family by Rebuilding the Man." He has just completed a book entitled From Rage to Responsibility, scheduled for release in August. Booker T. Washington, who rose from slavery to become the nation’s first widely recognized black leader, once warned against what he called "problem profiteers" among our nation’s black community. "There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public," observed Washington. "Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs." Jesse Jackson is the living validation of Washington’s eerily prophetic warning. As the founder of Brotherhood Organization of a New Destiny (B.O.N.D.), I have tried to carry on Washington’s legacy by promoting self-reliance, racial reconciliation, self-education, and helping black men to understand and fulfill their God-ordained responsibilities as fathers. As our organization has sought to rebuild black families and encourage activism based upon a love of God, family, and country, I have become gravely concerned about Jesse Jackson and his growing power and influence in our culture. The evidence is overwhelming that Jackson is a professional "problem profiteer": As someone who makes millions by exploiting and exacerbating racial tensions, Jackson doesn’t want racial tensions to subside. Ironically, the only interviewer who has ever challenged the legitimacy of Jackson’s "ministry" is Chris Rock, the foul-mouthed black actor and "comedian." "So, Jesse, what exactly do you do?" asked Rock during a segment of his HBO talk show featuring the "Reverend." Startled by the impertinence of Rock’s question, Jackson stammered that he works on behalf of "social justice." This reply did little to dispel Rock’s healthy skepticism. The tragedy is that so few Americans, black or white, are willing to subject Jackson to critical scrutiny. If they did, they would surely notice that the quest for "social justice," as defined by Jackson, always involves well-publicized efforts to stir up racial animosities. He can be counted upon to materialize anywhere there is a racial grievance and a television camera. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 162.6.228.196 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 04:23:52 PM In interviews published by the June 21, 1999 issue of Fortune, several honest black businessmen condemned Jackson’s "Wall Street Project" as a classic racketeering enterprise. One observed that because of Jackson’s mafia-style tactics, "there’s a big backlash" brewing against black entrepreneurs — which, given Jackson’s history of fomenting racial hostility, is probably the point of the whole enterprise. More Peterson. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.169.173 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 04:25:50 PM Billy Martin might want to use the case of Senator Bill Frist, former Senate Majority Leader and his dissection of cats he collected from animal shelters (under the pretense of adopting pets) without the benefit of anesthesia... Google - Bill Frist Cat Killer I don't recall that Frist served any time - nor there being a Federal investigation. Although PETA did whine a bit. "If the glove doesn't fit..." Indeed. Is the system so corrupt, it doesn't matter anymore? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 04:28:51 PM too tired: I think you are right about Taylor. He knows he can't afford the high powered defense that Michael Vick is going to have and he won't get a celebrity "get out of jail free card" that most celebrities get, so he is doing what's in his own best interest--snitching. He's still a rat abandoning a sinking ship, but at least he won't be in jail as long as Michael Vick. I don't think Vick gets to use his get out of jail free card this time--he done messed with Snoopy! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 04:47:18 PM I think it should be clear: Mike Vick--if he takes a plea--isn't going to jail. He's gonna pay a stiff fine; he's probably going to be on the hook for back taxes on the dog-fighting proceeds; and will do several years of probation with restrictive conditions. Some may not like it, but the Court will consider the severity of the crime. And since this was dog-fighting and not drug dealing, human trafficking, or a homicide; and since Vick does not have any prior convictions, failures to appear, etc., he's going to be seen as a first-time offender with the ability to straighten up and fly right. No court will look at him as someone who is so idle and ambitionless as to re-offend. No jail for Vick. And that's how it should be. It remains to be seen how the NFL will treat him. He may have to sit out for a year, but I think he'll take his freedom and ability to remain a millionaire, anyday. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 05:16:06 PM "There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public." Translation of white supremacy propaganda that is commonly used to turn Black people against each other while whites sit back, enjoy the show, and comment on how Black people can't get along. "There is a class of whites who make a business of keeping the troubles Black people on the front pages of newspapers while ignoring the same wrongs of all other groups." ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.169.173 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 05:40:28 PM Since we are in the world of fantasy with Analosity and Uncle Jesse Lee... I guess God struck down SCUMUS Justice Roberts today. Apparently lost his footing when he found out she was black. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 05:42:52 PM C.J. Roberts fell because he was leaning too far to the right. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael Fisher EMAIL: assaultonblacksanity@gmail.com IP: 166.214.213.248 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 07/30/2007 06:30:49 PM "As an avid animal lover I am sickened..." What about convicting the folks who are "human fighting" in Irak? For a whole lot of more prize money, too? Leave a Michael Vick alone. Go after the real criminals. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Guess EMAIL: jthompson25@sbcglobal.net IP: 70.130.229.233 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 06:50:07 PM I would like to know when did black men start believing they were as free to do in America as their white male counterparts? The noose is not through tightening. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: IP: 74.160.108.49 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 08:09:57 PM "There is a class of whites who make a business of keeping the troubles Black people on the front pages of newspapers while ignoring the same wrongs of all other groups." Mr. Smasha, well said! On another note, anyone who run around talking about "not snitching" is just talk. These punk thugs snitch all the time on each other, especially if it is a $5,000 reward hotline out there. Whatever, anyone who talk about "not snitching" is romanticizing a lifestyle they never been a part of. Billy Martin is not a great attorney, especially if you are going to cite Bill Campbell as one of his client. I don't believe in great attorneys when it comes to federal charges - it really comes to great witnesses at the end of the day. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 68.237.211.19 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 08:28:13 PM Ronnie B: are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? What basis do you have for thinking Vick won't do jail time? Have you looked at the Guidelines for this offense? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.176.57 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 09:32:00 PM Guess this - "I would like to know when did black men start believing they were as free to do in America as their white male counterparts? The noose is not through tightening." You don't remember your basic Richard Pryor. You got a gun or money in America... Ain't no problems. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.176.167 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 12:04:21 AM Looks like the "I" word has finally been broached over Gonzo... Directing the Committee on the Judiciary to investigate whether Alberto R. Gonzales, Attorney General of the United States, should be impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors. Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary shall investigate fully whether sufficient grounds exist for the House of Representatives to impeach Alberto R. Gonzales, Attorney General of the United States, for high crimes and misdemeanors. To be introduced on the floor of the House Tomorrow by Rep Jay Inslee of Washington. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: AnthonyMason EMAIL: IP: 65.209.120.239 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 12:51:09 AM Why does it feel that Vick is going down the way of [former] Grey's anatomy's Isiah Washington? Why the outrage at Vick, but not at Horse racing and the like? Dont get me wrong, Vick's stupidity (and sheer barbarism) merits jail time all by itself. however, with everything going in the world today, Vick's dogfighting hobby is the least of the world's concern. I wish the [white] media would make as much of a fuss about Pat Tillman, the former football player who appears to have been murder by members of his own unit because he was going public against the phony war on terrorism. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 08:22:33 AM Ronnie B: are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? What basis do you have for thinking Vick won't do jail time? Have you looked at the Guidelines for this offense? My basis is in the occasional representation of repeat petty criminals, working up sentencing guideline worksheets, and having to rely on pre-trial services reports that read like crime novels. I've provided representative assistance to people who committed (and pled) to crimes while still on probation. People who had gave hot UA's while still on probation. People who had skipped bench warrants. In each case, they received--at worst--home detention followed by probation. So as far as Vick's case goes, I know what I'm talking about. You may have skimmed over the sentencing guidelines, but have you ever actually worked a case? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 08:35:06 AM Why does it feel that Vick is going down the way of [former] Grey's anatomy's Isiah Washington? Why the outrage at Vick, but not at Horse racing and the like? Dont get me wrong, Vick's stupidity (and sheer barbarism) merits jail time all by itself. however, with everything going in the world today, Vick's dogfighting hobby is the least of the world's concern. It feels that way because, IMO, we're seeing an exercise in the assignment of value. Make no mistake, the PETA types and the media types are often the same people. Outraged that a thuggish Mike Vick would fight Pit Bulls? Absolutely. They make signs and take to the streets. Outraged at the number of kids who are mauled and killed by Pit Bulls? Not so much. Ever notice how no one takes to the streets when Greyhounds are executed when they can no longer race? No 24/7 ESPN coverage. No PETA sissies crying on cue. This is about selective villainization as sure as Roy Jones, Jr. still takes part in cockfighting. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.169.124 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 09:03:46 AM Could be that the "selective outrage" is a result of the powerlessness felt by the public in bringing other high level people to justice. Bringing down the wrath of the public on the Vicks, Lohans, Hiltons, and Ritchies serves as a proxy for being unable to see justice served for our politicians and crooked business leaders. It's the Roman audience calling for blood in the stadium, because they know full well Caesar will never see the knife. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 09:46:51 AM Difference is, Lohan and Hilton will re-emerge as celebrated after enduring their "hard time" and rigourous rehab. Vick will re-emerge as a thug, no matter what. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Don M EMAIL: IP: 12.1.238.1 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 09:56:45 AM The Michael Vick Circus is a big deal, but remember so was the Paris Hilton Circus, the Anna Nicole Smith Circus, the Michael Jackson circus etc etc. I think the selective outrage is not due to him being black, but to him being very famous in this country. Selective outrage applies to famous people period. If he had been a hick from WV. or a poor brother from MS. this wouldn't be news. It would be a blurb on the inside pages of a local newspaper. Sorry Michael, its not because you're black. Its because you did something atrocious, and offensive. It's because you have the number 2 selling sports jersey in the NFL. Its because you have shoe contracts, Coke contracts, and because you were on the cover of video games. These lobbying groups (PETA) aren't dumb. They go after the big fish. Why isn't the NAACP fighting for those boys in Jena, La. They're putting out statements rather on M. Vick. Why? Because the Jena story hasn't made prime time yet. Too bad so many people are sticking up for him, I hope they have their checks from him coming in the mail. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Mwafrika EMAIL: IP: 196.207.17.139 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 09:58:50 AM What baffles me is the gargantuan OUTRAGE against the brother. Recent sporting scandals: I.Former NBA referee Tim Donaghay betting scam. (Muted reaction) II.The tour de farce oops France. The race has and previously been blighted by doping scandals; however sores of cyclists have been busted this year http://www.euractiv.com/en/sports/tour-france-doping-scandal-sends-ripples-europe/article-165907?Ref=RSS. It is also alleged that seven time winner Lance Armstrong used to dope. Now sponsors are considering whether to withdraw their money (they won’t), I just wonder if they would have “considered” if the sport was black dominated. My point being; scandalous behavior is not restricted to black but runs across the board. Now to the animal lovers, pet owners, animal civil rights activists etc, it really amazes me how you guys value animals over fellow humans, that being the case, here is some history (past and present) cases of animal abuse, which you can follow up after you’re through lynching Vick. THE PAST: Europeans landed in America and almost stripped bare her (America’s) wildlife having virtually wiped all her wildlife back in Europe. The late Henry Fosbrooke, a British anthropologist, writes in his book Serengeti – the eighth wonder of the world, that the disappearance of rhinos, for example is due to shooting, for pleasure and profit by Europeans. John Hunter (another British settler) admits in his book, HUNTER, to have shot 1000 black rhinos in three seasons, to clear land for agriculture in the south of Nairobi, Kenya. This are just a few examples, the story of many species are just the same. This is exactly how many species were brought to the brink of extinction. THE PRESENT: Where do I start? Dick Cheney and his hunting crew, exclusive hunting clubs by members of the royal family in Britain or rich European and American tourist paying top dollar to shoot wildlife in Africa for FUN, I’m told that they are paying up to $10 000 per animal. Big game hunting is now the biggest money earner compared to other forms of tourism. Countries which had long banned hunting due to dwindling animal population are now being coerced by these rich lobbies to lift their ban and open their countries to this new breed of cowboys. Pressure is coming from all directions i.e. World bank, governments, govt. agencies e.g. USAID, which have sponsored various ‘studies’ showing how big game hunting will improve life of poor communities surrounding wildlife (another big lie, since white own exclusively all hotels in game parks, hence all money ends in his pocket). Asian countries have also successfully lobbied to have the ban on Ivory trade lifted. Why, you may ask do they want ivory? Apparently ivory (from elephants and rhinos) enhances libido, so future generations might not see elephants and rhinos because some people had to boost their sexual ability! So as you condemn the brother, with statements such as barbaric, inhuman, unforgivable stupidity, being thrown liberally (by the way, I am not defending his actions), just know there are others who are living comfortably despite doing worse things to animals. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 10:34:22 AM If you've "worked cases" in federal court, Ronnie, then you know that the Guidelines are pretty much the beginning and end of the story. From what I can tell, if Vick is convicted on the Travel Act charge, and if he has the squeaky clean record that he's reported as having, his Guidelines range is 0-6 months. This assumes that the base offense level for the underlying crime (animal fighting) isn't higher than that for the conspiracy charge. I suspect it isn't, but I don't know that for sure, and it's possible there could be enhancements for particularly brutal activity. So my cursory review suggests that you could well be correct that Vick gets no time. But in this scenario it probably comes down to Probation's recommendation. Hudson has a rep as a hard-ass, so it's a reasonable assumption that if Probation recommends something in the middle of the range, Hudson won't go lower, especially if Vick is the only defendant who doesn't take responsibility for his actions. Based on all this, my feeling is that if Vick takes this to trial and loses, he'll do a few months in jail. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 10:37:54 AM Vick - No Jail Time Didn't know the extend of the cruelty others had. Sentivity Re-hab, w dogs and children Any bets? Now his life in the NFL That is another question. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 10:42:10 AM "Difference is, Lohan and Hilton will re-emerge as celebrated after enduring their 'hard time' and rigourous rehab. Vick will re-emerge as a thug, no matter what." Every one of these people will re-emerge with the same rep they had before their legal problems. Lohan and Hilton will be regarded as crazy, egomaniacal, awful, and stupid. Vick will be regarded as a thug. True, Vick might not have much of a career left, but in the end Hollywood's not much kinder to women than the NFL is to athletes. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.169.124 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 10:47:30 AM Lohan and Hilton are blonde haired party girls through which frustrated housewives live vicariously. There, quite simply - is to much money to be made by their misadventures for it ever to be taken seriously... As long as their 15 minutes of fame lasts. In reality, it's nothing more than pornography. The average American Joe searches for some justification to pay Sports heros the millions they recieve for playing ball. Being "Like Mike" is a lot more than just a swish of a 30 foot jumper... "Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio...A nation turns its lonely eyes to you..." As dads live vicariously though their children's exploits comparing them to the greats. Michael Vick's crime isn't so much what he did... As the betrayal of our dreams. And THAT is why he will pay a very dear price. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 10:55:08 AM I hold what seems to be an extreme minority view: Vick's career path will be determined by his ability and performance. Don't forget the example of Ray Lewis, the ultimate NFL thug. He may not be the most popular guy in the world, but he rehabilitated his career after charges that were far more serious than what Vick is facing. He's going to the NFL hall of fame. If Vick can play quarterback when this is all over, he'll come back. Maybe not with the megabucks endorsement deals he had before, but he'll get paid. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 11:01:24 AM Based on all this, my feeling is that if Vick takes this to trial and loses, he'll do a few months in jail. --BMOC If Vick's team is foolish enough to risk trial, I think you're right. He'll do a few months. Every one of these people will re-emerge with the same rep they had before their legal problems. Lohan and Hilton will be regarded as crazy, egomaniacal, awful, and stupid. Vick will be regarded as a thug. True, Vick might not have much of a career left, but in the end Hollywood's not much kinder to women than the NFL is to athletes. True that Hollywood can be less forgiving for women; it can still be forgiving, though. Drew Barrymore still finds work. And I'm sure there are others who've run amok, yet who still find work and who can and have worked their way "back" to stardom. The NFL--at least the NFL under Roger Goodell--is becoming less forgiving. But I think if Vick assures the league that he's no longer a thug risk, he might find forgiveness and a path back to (football) stardom. I think his cross-over appeal, however, is gone for good. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: The Sanity Inspector EMAIL: synapsid@hotmail.com IP: 168.28.128.78 URL: http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com DATE: 07/31/2007 11:09:15 AM Don't know about Vick getting darker - but I did notice Faux News had cranked up the gamma on their videos of him, which is an old trick to make someone look "oily" and evil. The big 3 networks do the same with Rush Limbaugh, still using stock footage from the early 90s, when he was much fatter than today. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 11:10:55 AM Poetic Today BT Their names I know not, But every weed has Its tender flower. Sampu ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 11:22:30 AM Barrymore still finds work because she's still relatively young. Check back on her in 15 years. The timeline on NFL players is shorter, but that's not news to anyone. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: The Sanity Inspector EMAIL: synapsid@hotmail.com IP: 168.28.128.78 URL: http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com DATE: 07/31/2007 11:23:55 AM Let's pause and remember: this time last year, everybody knew that those Duke lacrosse players were guilty of rape. The little stalins on the Duke faculty reviled them, the civil rights establishment reviled them, and the DA treated the case like it was his personal rocketship to superstardom. They were all wrong. Let's at least give Vick the chance to get his side of the story out, before we started condemning/excusing him. As for the race thing, yes; dogfighting is a historically rural white pursuit, that has lately been picked up by hiphoppers. The difference of course is that impressionable young people don't admire white trash, and don't aspire to grow up and imitate them. Not the case with thug-life-livin' NFL stars... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 11:26:30 AM TO BECKY [Post #2]: Your right, no card needs to be played here, the underlying issue here is race - this is all about race. The animal rights cabal is selective and hypocritical. There is no outcry with regards to other common outdoor pursuits, such as deer hunting, or even fishing for that matter; which are pursuits enjoyed by everyday folk which do not necessarily require affluence. This is really about a Black man, who in the opinion of some, is believed to be over compensated for what he does for a living, relative to its societal value [IMO]. I’m not entirely convinced that due to Vick's celebrity (alone), this has blown up to "OJ-esque" proportions [maybe I'm exaggerating]. Vick was an easy target (due to his celebrity) but to dismiss race as a factor in this, is ignoring the biggest below the surface issue that our society still struggles with today - the issue of race. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 11:37:27 AM Why is it that everyone here seems to think that "the animal rights cabal" doesn't cry out against things like greyhound racing or deer hunting, etc.? They do. What's different about the reaction to the Vick story isn't how "the animal rights cabal" is reacting, but how ordinary people who aren't animal rights activists are reacting. Please understand this really obvious issue. And also try to think if there might be a valid reason why an animal rights activist might think dogfighting is a worse thing than deer hunting is, even though the animal rights activist might deplore both dogfighting and deer hunting. Think like a lawyer and see if your big brain can come come up with something. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: The Sanity Inspector EMAIL: synapsid@hotmail.com IP: 168.28.128.78 URL: http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com DATE: 07/31/2007 11:37:36 AM The animal rights cabal is selective and hypocritical. There is no outcry with regards to other common outdoor pursuits, such as deer hunting, or even fishing for that matter; which are pursuits enjoyed by everyday folk which do not necessarily require affluence. Actually, PETA is a load of misanthropes in sheep's clothing, who would like nothing better than for the majority of humanity to just die off. They most certainly do object to hunting and fishing. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 11:48:02 AM Talk about racism - Nike LOL "Nike has agreed to pay $7.6 million to settle a class-action suit that alleged the sportswear maker discriminated against black employees at its Niketown store in Chicago, according to court documents" http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/070731/nike_suit.html?.v=4 ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 01:25:16 PM What's different about the reaction to the Vick story isn't how "the animal rights cabal" is reacting, but how ordinary people who aren't animal rights activists are reacting. Precisely. It's the reaction by ordinary people. But ordinary people weren't outraged about Pit Bull fighting before it was alleged that some ghetto-life thug football player was allegedly involved. Ordinary people, it seems, are now breaking their ankles trying to jump on the Mike Vick-is-the-devil bandwagon. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 01:35:49 PM The judicial system notwithstanding, I just think much of this is a convenient opportunity to take some free, public shots at today's over-paid, under-educated and over-entitled Black athlete. It's on everyone's minds. Whether it's Charles Barkley talking trash in his hey-day, NBA negroes starting riots in the stands, or Pacman Jones multiple run-ins with the law, society has an unspoken resentment about highly paid Black athletes run amok. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 01:41:31 PM Ok, so you concede that animal-rights activists aren't acting hypocritically here. Remember that and don't bring that disingenous argument up again. As for the other point, "ordinary people" who weren't outraged by dogfighting before Vick weren't outraged because they weren't hearing about dogfighting. When they heard what it involved, they were justifiably outraged. You appear to think that "ordinary people" have been co-existing with dogfighting for years and haven't had a problem with it because no black guy was involved. Sophisticated thinking there. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 01:43:19 PM BMOC: 1. I'm speaking for myself & ~ "everyone" 2. My Comment was specifically directed to Becky's Comment (in response to mine) & ~PETA. IMO, the self described "avid animal lover" is indicative of the public "outcry" to which you refer. The "cabal" to which I refer is that same chorus. 3. The deer don't get to shoot back, so which really is "worse" ... 4. The outcry is occurring because this issue has been determined to be news worthy. 5. Did I miss anything? I'm in Southern Calif., South L.A. is littered with roving packs of dogs, some are strays alot discarded from dog fighting. The Times jumped all over this a few years ago, as its a public health hazard. In a twisted kind of way, Vick has brought attention to the ENTIRE issue of dog fighting. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 01:45:15 PM Ronnie B YOU'RE ON POINT. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 01:48:16 PM Deliberate Speed: I couldn't follow most of your last post, so I won't muddy the waters further with another response. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 01:58:53 PM BMOC: I basically agreed with Ronnie B way back @ Comment #4. And ordinary folks crying out (all of a sudden) is a cabal. Informed participants within society don't shout on cue just because its popular at the moment [and I don't condone the alleged allegations]. Ordinary people (the Cabal) are all over this because of who the alleged perp is. If this had been human beings in someone's "Black Bottom" somewhere, the Cabal would give less than a damn. How disingenous [sic] is that? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 01:59:03 PM And in Phila, every time they have an adopt a dog in the Pet Store. Guess what breed is there. Most ordinary folks are in their own buble.It is only when these matters come up like this one with Vick do we hear clamours. The upper middle class white women mainly are very concern. They think that no black person can raise a dog or a child properly any way. I don't think it is a matter of being hypocritically; it is what makes folks aware in this times of info overload. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 02:03:04 PM Deliberate Speed: It's just difficult to follow your meaning when you're using words outside of their normal meaning. A cabal is by definition a very small group of people, which makes no sense in the context you're using it in. I still don't understand your argument, and I'm not prepared to help you articulate it through a Socratic dialogue here. Alternatively, you can just consider me a dim-wit and forget about me. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 02:12:55 PM Big Ma, Ray Lewis got/continues to get over because the Cabal could have cared less about that Black human being who got murdered. But had that been a Dog, and the media had got ahold of it ... oh boy ... Ray would have been done. P.S. Is disingenous [sic] in Black's Law dictionary ... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 02:18:03 PM What, I failed to type a "u" there? I'm totally discredited. I'd go furthe than that, Deliberate Speed. White people actually *loved* Ray Lewis because a black person was murdered. that's why he's going to the hall of fame. You've also correctly noted that white people like dogs more than black people. Lucky guess. If you knew half of the rest of what white people say and do when you're not around, you'd never stop crapping your pants. I suggest you try to infiltrate by putting on whiteface makeup like Eddie Murphy did in that old SNL sketch. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: dELIBERATE sPEED EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 02:24:23 PM Big Ma, Actually, Webster defines cabal as a group (and does not quantify the size of the group). So, seeing that Vick has been reported extensively in No. America - so what size "group" are we discussing here? You see Sir, a Bar License does not provide you a license to be an @$$ hole. You began the Ad Hom's. I'm now returning them in kind. If your superior intelligence (in your opinion) warrants that I ought to be the recipient of your Socratic engagement - don't mention it if you're not going to follow through. Spell check wasn't a topic on the Bar either I presume. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 02:24:54 PM Jesus, man, do I have to actually go look up the definition of "cabal" for you? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: DS EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 02:30:26 PM Ma - Game recognizes Game ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 02:39:49 PM DS, you know how I do. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: DS EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 02:44:08 PM Your response is indicative of the modern day Race Issue in America. You surprise me like, not at all. But you know what, it bothers me like, not at all, as well. So, how long did it take you to get out of debtors prison, er ... student loan debt? I guess I'd "floss" my superior command of the law and language as well. Why shouldn't you, you borrowed, er ... paid for it. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 03:00:25 PM Not sure what you're referring to in your first paragraph, but that's nothing new. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: DS EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 03:01:49 PM Apologies to the Thread for hijacking the Thread (never have responded well to Ad Hom attacks). Vick is about the race of high paid athletes "run amok" at the end of day, to quote Ronnie B. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 75.33.138.44 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 03:49:47 PM "Lil’ Kim went to jail because she refused to snitch. Should Taylor have followed her lead? Or the other way around?" did an actual professor really just ask this? you know the black community is in deep trouble when its most educated members are still confused as to whether it's good or bad to snitch. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 03:51:19 PM I've posted this before, but I think one could make a good argument that the Vick story, as a story, is being oversold by mass media because of its lurid quality. Part of the mass appeal of the story has to do with the image of Vick as black urban thug. Vick should be prosecuted to the fullest extent, but the story itself is inconsequential to the lives of most everyday people. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.169.124 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 04:20:30 PM Biggie floats - "...the image of Vick as black urban thug..." I think that would be black backwoods thug... AKA "Bama". Insofar as Michael's "squeaky clean" backgorund, I believe such is the result of a selective memory resulting in a large rug with a mountain uder it... Not to mention the dismissal of his Heir Apparent and younger brother Marcus for a string of questionable and criminal activities. But don't let me distract from a good rant. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 04:26:36 PM The “no-snitch” rule was created by whites for whites. Are the white congress people and local white elected officials snitching on each other when they take bribes from lobbyist and other fat cats? Consider housing discrimination, employment discrimination, loan discrimination, and police abuse: Any whites pointing the finger at the guiltier whites for their discriminatory acts and violence against Black people? … I don't think so either. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 04:31:29 PM ... I think one could make a good argument that the Vick story, as a story, is being oversold by mass media because of its lurid quality. Part of the mass appeal of the story has to do with the image of Vick as black urban thug. Vick should be prosecuted to the fullest extent, but the story itself is inconsequential to the lives of most everyday people. Concur. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: alienmist EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.42 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 05:38:08 PM Turning every case involving a "black" person into a race issue shows how immature and undeveloped most african-americans are. I pull no punches... Wake up for heaven's sake!! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 06:38:52 PM Translation of hillbilly troll trash bullshit (above); When we whites screw over you black people with our system of selective prosecution and harassment you guys need to pretend that it is not race motivated. When you guys show us to be the racist @ssholes we are, you know it kinda makes some of us feel bad. And it further makes us want to pretend that our system of justice is fair for all us citizens. So keep trying to be like us whites and maybe you guys can become citizens one of these days. Oh, and please keep in mind: Might does make right. Yours truly, One Pissed On Peckerwood ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 08:29:56 PM by Shavar Jeffries Reviewing our comment boards recently, we seem to have an increase in the number of personal, ad hominem attacks that have no place in our blog. Six months ago, we posted the following message, which describes our approach to censoring comments: Blackprof is one of the more open-ended intellectual forums on the web — particularly as it relates to blogs hosted by academics — and that liberality reflects our desire to facilitate a broad, robust, and intellectually unpredictable set of conversations that might enlighten us all. But we do reserve the right to edit comments or delete them entirely if they are devoid of substantive significance and amount to nothing more than offensive name-calling. We do not exercise this authority lightly, as our general view is the best way to meet distasteful speech is either with silence or more speech. But, nonetheless, sometimes comments cross the line and require censorship for the broader good of the group. For these few extreme comments, we might not become aware of them as fast as some of you might like — we do have full-time jobs, you know — but we will do our best to ensure our forum is as free as possible from the kind of personal, ad hominem attacks designed to assault identities rather than ideas. And, ultimately, the best means of achieving this goal is if each one of us accords to our fellow members the civility and respect we would appreciate for ourselves. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 68.237.211.19 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 09:42:24 PM I would suggest that Blackprof probably should just go ahead and excise the hate-speech posts (search for the n-bomb) on the other Vick thread before handwringing over whether I'm hurting the feelings of some illiterate bozo who can't use a dictionary. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: kdog EMAIL: IP: 12.226.52.203 URL: DATE: 07/31/2007 09:55:25 PM Free school and dumb niggas. Thats it folk. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Mwafrika EMAIL: IP: 196.207.17.139 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 03:11:15 AM Comment by Eugene Terre Blanche (leader of the afrikaneer movement in the then apartheid south africa) "I would loose more sleep if a DOG died, than if i killed a bunch of this ni@@ers" Why do i get a sense of deja vu! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 03:12:26 AM BM, I suggest you put your vocational philosophy degree to other use, rather than idealizing upon your own myopia. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 68.237.211.19 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 08:49:28 AM DS, I have no idea what that means. I can't keep up with the tag-team of you and your thesaurus. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 12:27:54 PM And you've previously opined that I can't keep up with you and your Black's Law Dictionary. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Thomson • West EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 12:47:45 PM ad hominem 2 entries found. ad hominem[1,adjective]ad hominem[2,adverb] Main Entry: 1ad ho·mi·nem Pronunciation: \(ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem, -nəm\ Function: adjective Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person Date: 1598 1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect 2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 01:36:13 PM DS, I never mentioned Black's to you. What I did was tell you that I couldn't engage in a substantive point-on-point argument with you because it was too difficult for me to tell what you were trying to say. I later supplied your misuse of the word "cabal" as an example. You got really upset about that and you've been attacking me, as far as I've been able to make out, ever since. I realize I can be a little snippy on message boards, and I apologize for that. But it really is difficult for me to follow your posts. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 02:24:59 PM Black's Law Dictionary, legal acumen - whatever. Your meaning or "intention" (as used in Philosophy of Language) was not lost. So, don't float form over substance rhetoric at this point. You might read Frege on Intention & Meaning. You opine I misused "cabal", well I disagree. Well, my "Big Brain" as you refered to earlier, is in high gear now. But you know what Esquire [no disrepect to individual attorneys, lawyers, counselors etc. on the blog] its difficult to have any measure of respect for anyone, such as yourself, who's demonstrated (publicly I might add) the inability to originally follow "who commented on what". In stead of calling me out (specifically) you refer to "Everyone", when you knew exactly who you were directing the comment towards. Dude, you need to "Man Up" and direct your comments to whom they're intended for and not be a little Punk. This isn't an ad hom, this is real talk (yes I've gone there). Further, the "nitpicking" originated with yourself, as I guess you felt the necessity to correct me as the "Great Oz" of the message board. My reference was to "the outcry". I used the phrase "animal rights cabal" in reference to a previous comment/commenter. I was not refering to any lobby or group per se and stated so in the next post. You're of the ilk that I must "Guess how many marbles are in this jar," before I can cast my Blackprof vote, its a new day - get over yourself. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 02:45:07 PM The only thing you wrote that I can understand is your claim that it was unmanly for me to use the pronoun "everyone" when what I was really doing was attacking you specifically. The post you refer to was substantive, albeit spicy. It was not ad hominem. With regard to the aforementioned pronoun, I can only say that I referred to "everyone" because I had seen your point expressed by many other people on this board, both on this thread and the other Vick thread. Ronnie B was one of those. I can't remember the others. In short, while I was being hyperbolic, and did not literally mean to address "everyone," I was not specifically addressing you, but rather a group of people. In your defense, I have no doubt that you were among the stupidest of that group. The rest of your post is gibberish and undecipherable. Look, this was fun for a while. I actually do enjoy this kind of thing, and I'm aware that's a personality flaw. But we've lost whatever momentum we once had, and I probably won't give you any more responses. So be sure to make your next post a real zinger. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.166 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 02:52:19 PM It was the next Comment moron, excuse me, Moron, Esq. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: anonymous EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 08/01/2007 02:54:31 PM hey you two douchebags, shut the hell up ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chi-town Hustler EMAIL: IP: 68.210.101.195 URL: DATE: 08/02/2007 01:10:05 AM When the Feds finish with Vick maybe they can turn their attention to the Greyhound Racing industry. “Greyhound racing is a horrible "sport" where greyhounds are forced to race and live under terrible and abusive conditions. It is just a horrible form of gambling. If the dogs can't make them money, they are simply killed. 20,000+ greyhounds are killed in the US each year alone. The greyhound racing industry claims that most of them become pets, but that is simply propaganda. Not that many greyhounds are adopted. Even if they were all adopted, the dogs are abused in their racing days. The dogs practically live in crates when they are not racing. They are starved, so they won't get fat. It's estimated that 100,000 rabbits and other small animals are tortured and torn apart by Greyhounds in standard training practices known as live lure training.” I don’t read too much into Taylor’s snitching. He’s trying to save his rear. Everyone knows that snitches are the oil which runs the criminal justice engine. Everyone knows that they lie. Without snitches the Feds and cops would be able to arrest and convict very few. I still say that there is some unindicted redneck snitch who is the lynchpin in this case. The odds are long, but the gut tells the Hustler to bet on Billy. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Sham EMAIL: IP: 130.253.168.35 URL: DATE: 08/06/2007 07:52:04 PM I just think it is odd that I have yet to read any story about people stepping up to adopt any of the 50+ pit bulls that were confiscated from the Vick property. Then again nobody in their right mind would adopt an animal that was bred to be mean and vicious. Who is going to bring a puppy home so it can rip a kid's face off one day? Those dogs are getting put down...how about picketing that, PETA? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: PETA EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 08/07/2007 01:11:08 PM You talking to me? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ro936ck EMAIL: new1@gmail.com IP: 83.222.23.202 URL: http://b7572.searchik.info DATE: 08/19/2007 09:41:02 AM m281k ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ro936ck EMAIL: new1@gmail.com IP: 83.222.23.202 URL: http://b7572.searchik.info DATE: 08/19/2007 09:42:02 AM m281k ----- PING: TITLE: nalogikomayugecn URL: http://nalogikomayuge.cn/ IP: 64.79.192.162 BLOG NAME: nalogikomayugecn DATE: 08/15/2007 09:24:43 PM nice post ----- -------- AUTHOR: kmclarin TITLE: Goodnight, Everybody STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 PRIMARY CATEGORY: race CATEGORY: race DATE: 07/26/2007 01:47:49 PM ----- BODY:
Remember, back in the days of variety shows, when the host would come out at the end, sing a song, perform some trademark gesture and say goodnight? You know: Donny and Marie, Flip Wilson, Carol Burnett. Anybody? Am I showing my age?
At any rate, it’s time for me to go. I’ve had a wonderful time blogging here on blackprof.com and I want to thank all the readers, responders, other contributors, and especially Shavar Jeffries. In closing, I’d like to leave you with two, interrelated ideas I’ve spent some time thinking about. The first is the critical distinction between individual and structural racism, a distinction that fewer and fewer folks in our society seem able, or perhaps willing, to make. To break it down one way: doing the work that some of us feel called to do is not about getting the white guy in your office to smile at you, or getting the white folks in your town to want to seat their children next to yours in school, or even about getting Don Imus to not consider me a ‘ho. To think it is about these things is a major misunderstanding, and a sad one. But really this is a huge and important issue, one I don’t have the time to properly discuss here and now. Instead I’ll leave you with the work of john a. powell, an internationally recognized authority in issues relating to race, ethnicity, poverty and the law. And a lawyer, to boot. One does not always have to reinvent the wheel.
Secondly, I leave you with this very compelling article by Judith Shapiro on an idea she calls sociological illiteracy. It was while doing research on sociology for a character I was creating that I stumbled upon Shapiro and her article. I now use it with my students, along with writings based on the work of sociologist C. Wright Mills . As Shapiro says, most Americans are sociologically illiterate. Worse, they cling to that illiteracy, and often proudly so. A society whose members refuse to examine critically the interconnectedness between individuals and societal forces is a society deluding itself.
Well, okay. Time for me to run. Again, I thank you. It’s been a great show. Blessings, peace and goodnight (tug on ear).
Bobette Espinoza DuBois, III, (fictional name, composite person) who teaches law at a well respected regional school, School A, would like to leave her school for greener pastures at School B. With a good publishing record and better-than-average teaching evaluations, she thinks she should be a strong candidate for a lateral appointment, but wonders whether some of her colleagues at School A may say unkind things when a member of the appointments committee at School B telephones to ask what they think of her.
Bobette, who has endured a number of bruising battles with a few of her colleagues at School A over the years, fears the worst. These struggles include having had words with several conservative white colleagues over student affirmative action, and a sharp dispute with a fellow professor of color over tenure for a third colleague, who teaches in the law school clinic. That colleague, who won tenure, would obviously say nice things about her, but she fears the other professor might not.
Bobette wonders how she can find out what her detractors are likely to say about her and whether she should prepare a written response she can give the appointments committee at the other school in advance, rebutting what the naysayers are likely to say.
MOM SAYS that Bobette needs to learn to play Joe Cool. There is no way she can obtain the information she desires without generating suspicion and making matters worse. Learning to live with uncertainty is inherent in being a minority professor at a dominantly white law school. If she arranges for a friend (a shill) to call up one of the likely detractors at School A, the detractor, realizing that the caller is a friend of Bobette, may decline to be candid. If Bobette asks someone who is not a known friend to make the inquiry, apart from its dubious ethicality, the whole thing may backfire. The person called may ask highly particularized questions (“what do you know about her?” “Do you really have a slot in her field”), also revealing the hoax.
Equally important, the information such an inquiry may yield is unreliable. The same individual, asked by person P on one occasion what he thinks of Bobette, may say something completely different the next day when approached by another caller. Everything depends on the individual’s frame of mind, how the caller puts the question, and who the caller is. Bobette’s colleague on one occasion may think “Good riddance” and give her a rave review in hopes of unloading her on another school. On a different occasion, that same colleague may run her down, thinking it would be fun to have her around to torture one more year.
If Bobette wants to leave School A, she should cast a wide net. Moving laterally is difficult for anyone, white or nonwhite. She will have to run a gantlet of questioning and reference-checking with little guarantee of fair, or even decent, treatment. She can minimize her risks by asking a friend at School B to propose her appointment with School B’s appointments committee and then to keep her in the loop on how it is going. If she finds that her conservative colleagues at School A are blocking her, she can find a way to let them know that she is aware of what they are doing. This may cause them to mute their criticism in order to avoid a lawsuit or other form of unpleasantness. If it doesn’t, she will at least have the consolation of knowing that she earned their enmity by doing the right thing by the minority students and her colleague in the clinic. Life is sometimes tough—it comes with no warranty of fairness. She should keep in mind that the bad actors who are blocking her progress are stuck at School A, too. ----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Jim Meek EMAIL: IP: 151.161.41.57 URL: DATE: 07/26/2007 04:05:27 PM In the business world, many job search counselors recommend that you find exactly what your references will say by having someone call and ask. There are reference-checking services (search Google) that do this for a fee or you can ask an knowledgable friend to pose as a potential hiring manager (or search committee member). To test the waters, a faculty member might ask a colleague at another school to call and indicate their department might be seeking to fill a position in the next couple of years and what can you tell me about Bob? The professional firms take care not to misrepresent what they are doing -- they have been retained to check references on a job seeker and do not reveal the name of the party who hired them to do so. Using a friend may raise some more ethical flags and I have not heard that faculty searches use such firms. Trolling for information for a possible search may be even harder. Still, it is worth knowing that some people take references seriously enough to make sure what folks will say about them. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 07/26/2007 09:08:19 PM Richard The pathetic thing about you is that your field--critical race theory--is nothing more than a con to rationalize minority parasitism (see affirmative action). You cannot write, you produce no original scholarship--you are a parasite. Get a job you're cognitively prepared to excel at. Go to Africa and become a diarrhea spotter for Unicef. Richard, don't you have any dignity? Get off the academic welfare gravy train. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: conscientious observer EMAIL: tafari_sahle77@yahoo.com IP: 149.150.236.250 URL: DATE: 07/27/2007 10:27:03 AM Polanski, you obviously know very little about critical race theory. Mr.Delgado's publication record clearly indicates that he writes well enough to be highly published scholar. I guess your next postings will attack my ability to write. It's ok however because I am questioning your ability to ponder an issue before you offer a twisted opinion. Critical race theory is the school of thought that holds that race lies at the nexus of American life. And who could argue with that? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: casual, not terribly conscientious observer EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.122 URL: DATE: 07/27/2007 10:42:31 AM I'm not sure what critical race theory has to do with this post. Prof. Delgado seems to be saying, persuasively, that the incentives in place for academics discourage people from "rocking the boat." Academic hiring isn't a transparent process, for better or worse, and relies a lot on personal relationships. As such, there is some potential for backstabbing and that sort of thing. If someone has candidly spoken his/her mind on things and "rocked the boat," that person may wonder if s/he's made some enemies along the way who have some power to hurt her career and who might do so, given the opportunity. I'm not sure how race enters into this much, unless one thinks that minority professors are more likely to rock the boat and make enemies in this way, or unless one thinks that minority professors are more likely to have colleagues who dislike them irrationally. Prof. Delgado describes the confrontations in this way: Bobette, who has endured a number of bruising battles with a few of her colleagues at School A over the years, fears the worst. These struggles include having had words with several conservative white colleagues over student affirmative action, and a sharp dispute with a fellow professor of color over tenure for a third colleague, who teaches in the law school clinic. That colleague, who won tenure, would obviously say nice things about her, but she fears the other professor might not. I submit that at least some conservative white professors have the same sort of fears about lateral hiring. If they speak their minds about things like affirmative action, the Solomon Amendment, constitutional law, etc., law faculties are largely liberal and conservative professors who don't keep to themselves and teach tax courses may worry about being stabbed in the back by their more liberal colleagues. If someone said at a meeting that affirmative action is premised on black inferiority, would that person not worry that one of his/her colleagues might call him/her a racist when the lateral hiring people come calling? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 07/27/2007 04:15:49 PM CO No, "race" is not at the nexus of American life. If this were true, I guess there would be a big stink over East Asians' dominance at elite institutions like UC Berkeley. "Race" is only an issue in contemporary America if you need easy excuses for failure--and that unfortunately is the hallmark of black America. Blacks cannot compete with whites and East Asians, so they'll be forever citing "racism" as a rationale for quotas and other goodies. I label this parasitism. Someone wondered why uncritical race theory popped up. Delgado is 1 of the principal proponents of this nonsense--or didn't you know that? And the parable-like writing style of his "Dear Mom" column is a reflection of the race narratives so beloved by the race hustlers in uncritical race studies. All this BS was played out beautifull in the Duke hoax: 1. the Group of 88, the heart of which was unqualified, affirmative-action race hustlers who could have easily included Delgado 2. the metanarrative that presumed that whites are evil and that a black-thug female Mangum is Sister Theresa 3. a feckless administration cowed by the diversity pimps' agenda As another low-IQ population gains power (Hispanics), blacks will be fighting over the affirmative-action crumbs. It would make a great reality-TV show. How much parasitism can the US support? That's the Big Question, not whether Mr Honkie is prejudging black children and denying them opportunity. Pleez! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 07/27/2007 05:33:12 PM Translation of hillbilly troll trash bullshit: You know we whites don’t necessarily care for the Asian people either, and as soon as they topple our economy, we will have to re-invade their little commy nations and set things right once again. But hey, they are pretty good in school and this technology stuff and we whites can learn from them. We also appreciate how they allow us whites to pretend we are the altruistic World saviors we put ourselves out there to be. But you Black folks don’t want to play the pretend game. You know where you are supposed to pretend we have not destroyed your families, educational opportunities, employment opportunities, and economic success by victimizing you through our trickery, manipulation, enslavement, forced segregation, and governmental neglect. But you’all know how it is: once you negroes start actin’ right we’ll let one our two of you become a supreme court justice or president or something where the rest of the World will think everything is A-OK in Good ‘ol Amerikkka Oh, and by the way, if you Blacks are still waitin’ for us whites to create a just and fair system for all of the citizens of America, and waitin’ for us whites to right the wrongs we have perpetrated against you Black people, well yall just keep on awaitn’… the rapture will be here soon enough. Sincerely yours, One Caring and Concerned Peckerwood ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 07/27/2007 06:32:57 PM CS, Nice that you totally ignored the spirit of my post. If white racism is at the root of black failure, then how do you explain Jamaica and Haiti? Blacks become parasites and predators wherever they go--Swedan, England, Holland. If Mr Honkie is so evil, why are blacks always trying to invade his cultures? The US does not need a dialogue on race--what it needs is a dialogue on racial differences, and their consequences. Blacks are the world's losers. Examine their crime rates, illegitimacy rates, IQs--it's downright pathetic. Yours sincerely, Hillbilly Trash Troll ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 07/27/2007 06:34:02 PM CS, Nice that you totally ignored the spirit of my post. If white racism is at the root of black failure, then how do you explain Jamaica and Haiti? Blacks become parasites and predators wherever they go--Swedan, England, Holland. If Mr Honkie is so evil, why are blacks always trying to invade his cultures? The US does not need a dialogue on race--what it needs is a dialogue on racial differences, and their consequences. Blacks are the world's losers. Examine their crime rates, illegitimacy rates, IQs--it's downright pathetic. Yours sincerely, Hillbilly Trash Troll ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 07/27/2007 06:35:23 PM CS, Nice that you totally ignored the spirit of my post. If white racism is at the root of black failure, then how do you explain Jamaica and Haiti? Blacks become parasites and predators wherever they go--Swedan, England, Holland. If Mr Honkie is so evil, why are blacks always trying to invade his cultures? The US does not need a dialogue on race--what it needs is a dialogue on racial differences, and their consequences. Blacks are the world's losers. Examine their crime rates, illegitimacy rates, IQs--it's downright pathetic. Yours sincerely, Hillbilly Trash Troll ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Admin EMAIL: IP: 66.7.6.242 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 10:18:53 AM Test ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bsaz fghbyaixd EMAIL: uzjpqvb@mail.com IP: 202.84.96.16 URL: http://www.ulmdfpto.fpugshjqk.com DATE: 08/18/2007 12:16:13 PM szktlyf yhdqrxmo dyiqnefs natogrz oswautlvm rbknuod jzuyg ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bsaz fghbyaixd EMAIL: uzjpqvb@mail.com IP: 196.44.184.78 URL: http://www.ulmdfpto.fpugshjqk.com DATE: 08/18/2007 12:16:22 PM szktlyf yhdqrxmo dyiqnefs natogrz oswautlvm rbknuod jzuyg ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: admin EMAIL: IP: 69.203.132.21 URL: DATE: 08/21/2007 02:21:03 PM test ----- -------- AUTHOR: tsmith TITLE: White Versus Black Capitol Aggression STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 PRIMARY CATEGORY: race CATEGORY: race DATE: 07/23/2007 01:26:16 AM ----- BODY:
Read this story about Congressman Chris Shays’s confrontation with a Capitol police officer. Will the media dog Shays the way it did former Rep. Cynthia McKinney, which helped to drive the outspoken black congresswoman from office?
----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: YBP EMAIL: IP: 204.155.172.22 URL: http://YBPguide.com DATE: 07/23/2007 12:30:33 PM Punching an officer in the chest (McKinney) is very different from cursing out an officer and touching his name tag (Shay). ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Jay EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.122 URL: DATE: 07/23/2007 12:52:35 PM IIRC, two of the things that turned McKinney's case into a media target were: (1) her accusations of racism, and (2) her refusal to apologize. By contrast, Shay accepted responsibility and apologized immediately. The guard in McKinney's case bore some responsibility for the misunderstanding, as he mistook her for a non-Congressperson, but that doesn't excuse McKinney's reaction then and thereafter. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Brandon EMAIL: bwhitney52@gmail.com IP: 165.201.5.7 URL: http://homelandcolors.blogspot.com DATE: 07/23/2007 01:12:31 PM She should have played it smart, we all know that things aren't fair, especially when it comes to racial issues. McKinney should have acted in a way that wouldn't get her kicked out of office instead of reacting emotionally. As for Shay not getting much media attention, who's surprised. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: RMCACE EMAIL: IP: 24.126.60.42 URL: DATE: 07/23/2007 01:50:30 PM McKinney punched an officer! That is different than touching a name tage and cussing him out. Shays apologized right away. McKinney went off about how it was racism, and really never gave a good apology. As in all politics, its not the crime, its the cover up. Shays tried no cover up while McKinney went nuts. It is worth noting that the media "chased" McKinney from office and she was replaced with Hank Johnson. He's black. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Akw EMAIL: IP: 128.228.93.202 URL: DATE: 07/23/2007 01:56:14 PM He should not get the same treatment as she did. He did not get physical. She did. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: curl_matrix EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.42 URL: DATE: 07/23/2007 03:53:06 PM Is the purpose of this blog to emphasize on how nasty America is for melanin rich human beings. There is too much negativity in the media, bring some good news for a change. Not all african-americans are having problems with the police or participating in dog fights. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dwight the MasterMind EMAIL: IP: 199.219.138.254 URL: DATE: 07/23/2007 07:48:02 PM If the facts presented in the story are entirely correct, then a white Republican congressman deliberately came down from his office to seek an "altercation" with a Capitol police officer, and screamed obscenities at the officer about what he percieved to be a slight, and after this "scuffle" and there are still members of this audience who think it's different from anything Cynthia Mckinney did. If I did what this congressman did as a private citizen, I'd be writing this post after my posting bail. Forget about media double standards, there are enough of them on this board. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 07/23/2007 07:48:52 PM more evidence that affirmative action law degrees do not serve as a proxy for the ability to reason at a high level. This post is stupid. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Response to Anonymous EMAIL: IP: 204.155.172.22 URL: DATE: 07/24/2007 11:04:57 AM Yet still, somehow not as stupid as you?! Amazing!! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Response to Anonymous EMAIL: IP: 204.155.172.22 URL: DATE: 07/24/2007 11:24:48 AM Yet still, somehow not as stupid as you?! Amazing!! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 146.245.89.10 URL: DATE: 07/24/2007 12:39:30 PM **and after this "scuffle" and there are still members of this audience who think it's different from anything Cynthia Mckinney did. ** Yep. Because it is. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: WHAT?! EMAIL: IP: 204.155.172.22 URL: DATE: 07/24/2007 02:59:05 PM Dwight, please tell us how arguing and touching a name plate and punching someone in the chest are one and the same? Please. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: ed@dreamandhustle.com IP: 68.158.67.58 URL: http://www.dreamandhustle.com DATE: 07/24/2007 07:50:36 PM Cynthia Mckinney allowed the powers that be make it about Cynthia Mckinney and not her district or the isues. She screwed up with her own people, don't blame anyone else... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: eric EMAIL: IP: 170.110.250.152 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 11:02:02 AM people, you are missing the point. even if cynthia behaved in the exact same manner as chris, she would have been demonized in the press because of her race-sex combination. you can distinguish the two incidents all you want, but the point is that imus is not the only one who suffers a double standard. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 11:26:39 AM I think Prof. Smith's point is a good one for the reason Eric lists. There's no question in my mind that people around the country would be outraged at McKinney if she had done what Shays did. She's seen foremost as a "crazy, angry black woman." Of course it doesn't help her that she actually is crazy. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.219 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 11:33:06 AM 350 Child Sized Solutions http://cobb.typepad.com/cobb/ read it ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: J EMAIL: IP: 204.155.172.22 URL: http://J DATE: 07/25/2007 12:55:57 PM Eric, you are probably right ... BUT we'll never know for sure, because the two incidents are NOT one and the same. Apples and oranges. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 69.38.230.2 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 12:58:38 PM **people, you are missing the point. even if cynthia behaved in the exact same manner as chris, she would have been demonized ** If you want to prove a double standard, find evidence of a double standard. There is plenty out there. This is not a good example at all. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: eric EMAIL: IP: 170.110.250.152 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 01:25:44 PM "Eric, you are probably right ... BUT we'll never know for sure, because the two incidents are NOT one and the same. Apples and oranges." It's still all fruit baby. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.122 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 04:27:55 PM Eric, maybe you're right, but the comparison of McKinney to Shay doesn't prove it. A white friend of mine was pulled over by the police for speeding, was polite to the police officer, and got away with a warning. But if my friend had been black, and if he had shot the guy, he'd probably be prosecuted for murder. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: YBP EMAIL: IP: 204.155.172.22 URL: http://YBPguide.com DATE: 07/25/2007 04:37:47 PM "It's still all fruit baby." Yeah, but not really. LOL. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: eric EMAIL: IP: 170.110.250.152 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 05:28:34 PM Anonymous, isn't it a bit early in the day to be drinking? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 06:28:07 PM FYI: pmsol3.wordpress.com/2007/07/25/13-white-americans-have-recent-black-ancestry 1/3 of "white" Americans have recent black ancestry. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dwight the MasterMind EMAIL: IP: 199.219.138.254 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 08:43:31 PM What?! asked "how arguing and touching a name plate and punching someone in the chest is the same thing." What?!- I am unwilling to accept emotive/value added characterizations of either behavior from biased sources- i.e. the mainstream media. If the congressman came down from his office to have a verbal confrontation with the police officer and actually put his hands on the man -- its assault. At least it's what I, a black man in America, would have been charged with for the same behavior. Tocuhing a name badge could easily be characterised as "poking the officer in the chest" Arguing, expecially when we know obscenity was employed, could be characterized as "verbally abusing the officer with a stream of profanities." If McKinney had done exactly what this Rep. from CT did, I have no doubt how the media would have characterized her actions. Finally, I make a crucial distinction between ther actions. McKinney was going about her business, not seekign the interaction she had with the officer. This congressman came down from his office on purpose to engage in his altercation. It changes the context for me. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dwight the MasterMind EMAIL: IP: 199.219.138.254 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 08:45:12 PM Sorry about the many typos. Pressed for time. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 07/26/2007 09:23:22 AM Punching an officer in the chest (McKinney) is very different from cursing out an officer and touching his name tag (Shay). Yes and no. Depending on the person and the officer involved, either action could land you on a coroner's slab. For sure, I won't be punching any police officer in the chest--for any reason. And I'm not so privileged and naive to think that I could march down to a local precinct; give some cop a piece of my mind; and tweak his badge. Either action could be extremely unhealthy. But that's just me. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 07/26/2007 09:24:42 AM Dwight the MasterMind - Thank U. Here we have a blog of laywers and no one even touches the new ruling on violence in the workplace. If you can read the arbs. we have on the new regulations and proving how supervisors can provoke. The problem here is there r folks who speak thru their dislike of McKinney, and not the growing complexities that we advocates must now engage in. If a workers even pokes some in the chest, it is immediate suspension. Some folks here are living in books and memes. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: YBP EMAIL: IP: 204.155.172.22 URL: http://YBPguide.com DATE: 07/26/2007 12:39:04 PM I stand corrected - somewhat. Both incidents involved physical contact and thus deserve equal attention in that area. I also see how McKinney was provoked, and how Shays initiated the situation. However, if Shays hadn't touched the officer, I don't think the incidents would have been close to comparable - even though he provoked the cop. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: eric EMAIL: IP: 170.110.239.205 URL: DATE: 07/26/2007 12:57:40 PM YBP, why do people go out of their way to try and distinguish similar incidents as if the distinction is a basis for justifying the double standard? here's one for you: why is it that when black nba players get in fights on the court, they are immediately called thugs, whereas white hockey and baseball players get in fights all the time as part of the game? got distinctions there? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: YBP EMAIL: IP: 204.155.172.22 URL: http://YBPguide.com DATE: 07/26/2007 09:42:48 PM Eric, I often ask your last two questions myslef. And regarding your first question, I assume it is because some people really do believe that the distinction is just that significant. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BBTPM EMAIL: j.smith@yahoo.com IP: 202.33.24.131 URL: DATE: 07/27/2007 01:12:41 AM Congressman Shay was smart enough to recognize his mistake and apologize for his actions, unlike McKinney who tried to play the victim. McKinney: Whoa is me, they are picking on me cause I'm black. Shay: I apologize, I was wrong. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: anon EMAIL: IP: 63.172.12.36 URL: DATE: 07/27/2007 04:01:04 PM I think something people are missing also is that McKinney blew through a security checkpoint at the Capitol complex, and was stopped by the officer for security reasons because the officer didn't recognize her. I believe she also didnt have her congressional pin on. Now, I find plausible and am willing to entertain the idea that there is inherent racism in McKinney not being visually recognized by the officer. They are supposed to know all the member of Congress by face. I think that is a separate issue from the confrontation. But I will focus on why the comparing Shay's and McKinney's confrontation is not appropriate. In looking at each event, the "security" context of McKinney's confrontation really matters. I bring this up to highlight that these incidents are really not the same, despite the physical contact of touching the officer's nametag in the Shay incident. The "security" context of the McKinney incident is what really got tensions flying. You can't compare a congressperson's "scolding" (and apparent "poking") of an officer ... where there was no doubt that the congressperson was not a security threat (as he was already in a secured area of the complex, and came down from his congressional office) ... to a congressperson attempting to barge through a security checkpoint and making physical contact w/ the officer in that context. Furthermore, McKinney struck the officer w/ a closed fist (according the the police report). Sadly, double standards do exist; yet this is not one of them. Also, i would point out bias in the photographs of McKinney and Shay that were selected for this post-- Clearly juxtaposing a negative stereotype of a "frowning evil looking white guy in a suit" w/ a motherly and innocent picture of McKinney. i'm not saying that there aren't evil white guys in suits out there...but this is a very dishonest set of images to be the first thing hit the readers. I just think this article is attempting to present a biased comparison of two events that aren't readily comparable with a specific residual effect on readers as a goal. I think readers grappling with serious social issues that affect millions of people should expect more. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: P EMAIL: IP: 24.90.82.64 URL: DATE: 07/28/2007 12:02:50 PM The security context you elide is Shay's use of authoritarian force to attempt a breach in the capitol building's security system. He verbally assaulted and threatened the cop to make him contravene security policy. He may or may not have been in a secure area but Shay's sole reason for being there was to breach security. This is the difference that should make a difference in our public discourse; but Shays is a white male republican. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: eric EMAIL: IP: 170.110.248.40 URL: DATE: 07/30/2007 12:08:46 PM this just in: Former U.S. Rep. Cynthia McKinney Sues Newspaper for Libel Published: July 30, 2007 11:10 AM ET NEW YORK Former U.S. Rep. Cynthia McKinney has filed a lawsuit against The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, claiming the paper libeled her in at least two editorials and a news article. The lawsuit was filed Thursday in Fulton County State Court against the newspaper, its parent company, Cox Enterprises, as well as its publisher, managing editor and editorial page editor Cynthia Tucker. Among other allegations, the lawsuit alleges the paper contained libelous and defamatory statements in two of Tucker's 2006 columns, including one about the congresswoman's altercation with a Capitol Hill police officer in a Washington office building. That column was included in a submission that won Tucker the Pulitzer Prize earlier this year. The lawsuit seeks unspecified compensatory and punitive damages. McKinney, a Democrat who lost to U.S. Rep. Hank Johnson in last year's party primary, is asking for unspecified monetary damages. Her lawyer, J.M. Raffauf, didn't return a phone message left at his office by The Associated Press on Sunday. An attorney for the newspaper, Peter Canfield, called the allegations "frivolous" and said he would move to have them dismissed as soon as the paper is served with the suit. ----- -------- AUTHOR: tsmith TITLE: Rudy And Race STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 PRIMARY CATEGORY: race CATEGORY: race DATE: 07/22/2007 09:29:21 PM ----- BODY:
I never look to The New York Times for a frank discussion of race in New York City, or even the United States, but today’s article on former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani was revealing, if not comprehensive. At base, the article portrays Giuliani as a racial opportunist, someone who, like Gov. George Wallace, began public life as a racial moderate but found that there was greater political gain in running against blacks. In this regard, Giuliani is remarkably consistent: he exploited racial division as voraciously as he has exploited 9/11 . No one bothers to ask how many lives Giuliani saved, as opposed to placed at risk, on 9/11, just as no one in the media probes why being mayor of a city that was attacked would make someone competent on matters of national security. But the former mayor has ridden his 9/11 persona to millions of dollars in personal wealth and, for the time being, a modicum of success in presidential politics.