AUTHOR: ccopeland TITLE: What I Owe to Hampton STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 PRIMARY CATEGORY: education CATEGORY: education DATE: 08/31/2007 03:17:41 PM ----- BODY:

 

"If you cut me, I might bleed purple."  This is how I often respond to the question of whether I enjoyed my four years at Amherst College.  And I think I am honest about my very real affection for the place.  I love its campus.  I love its mission.  Its independence.  But most of all I love the fact that as a black man, I was not new to the College  -- black men had been around (marginal no doubt) since the very earliest days.  I loved seeing the painting of Charles Houston '15 in the library, had returned as an alumnus for the hanging of the painting of William Hastie '25 in Johnson Chapel.  I loved living in, and being the RA of, the Charles Drew '26 Black Culture House.  In short, I love me some Amherst.  No matter how deep my affection for the place, however, the question arises every June, what do I owe Amherst.  As a kid from New Orleans, Amherst was an amazing journey of discovery, far beyond simply my identity as a black man.  Nevertheless, the progressive in me wonders whether it is consistent with any egalitarian, redistributive commitment to give them money every year. 

Amherst, which has an endowment of $1.3 billion, will never educate the number of black students that Hampton, whose endowment is about $230 million, does.  The endowments of Howard, Spelman, Morehouse and Hampton -- the four richest historically black colleges and universities --  total less than $1.3 billion.  This leads to the controversial question of whether blacks, educated at wealthy, white schools can, with egalitarian commitments intact, support their billion-dollar alma maters in an educational landscape that remains so remarkably unequal? 

----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Abelian EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.42 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 04:40:28 PM Prof; I read about the science programs at Hampton and was very encouraged. We really have to work extra hard. I cannot say how desparate I am to see another black face in scientific conferences. The isolation we experience in Academia has to be doing some damage. I hope Hampton and other colleges will continue to create more educated youth, this is a battle we cannot afford to lose. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 71.247.216.148 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 06:35:11 PM presumably you give money to amherst for a good reason. if not, stop giving to it. if so, give to hampton, too. i don't see the dichotomy. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: rikyrah EMAIL: IP: 172.166.100.254 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 10:34:22 PM I went to three White institutions. I give none of them money. The money I would send them I give to HBCU's that helped my family: Natchez College, Tuskegee, Jackson State and Fisk. They need my money more than the White college. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 75.33.141.109 URL: DATE: 09/01/2007 12:42:05 AM "Nevertheless, the progressive in me wonders whether it is consistent with any egalitarian, redistributive commitment to give them money every year." is communism very popular among black men nowadays? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Temple3 EMAIL: IP: 72.231.8.146 URL: http://temple3.wordpress.com DATE: 09/01/2007 05:43:57 AM The purpose of giving to wealthy predominantly white institutions is not to repay a debt, it is to carve out institutional space for Black folk - wherever we are. If you must give to those who have, the purpose should be to earmark dedicated resources which further our needs. Scholarships, dorms, libraries and memorials dedicated to our youth and legacy should be first and foremost. I echo the sentiments of BMOC...you/we can give to both - and in both cases, the giving is enhanced if it is coordinated and part of a thoughtful strategy. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 09/01/2007 03:23:23 PM Rikyrah That's fine that you don't give to "white institutions." If only blacks would stop applying to places like Amherst, Amherst could cease dedicating its scarce resources to AAAS and academic welfare, and perhaps beef up the mathematics and physics departments. Shouldn't this site really be called "affirmative action black prof"? I've seen no evidence that the primary posters have either intelligence or creativity. What would amuse me to no end is a scenario in which all the "talented tenth" black profs transferred to 1 "elite" institution. Can you imagine: Spike Lee, Cornel West, and Patricia Williams all in 1 room? I've got it! The name for this site. BRILLIANT LIKE SPIKE LEE PROFS If you require any more consulting, I'll have to bill you. Dream on, black profs. And don't forget: honkie hating is next to godliness. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 09/01/2007 03:39:34 PM Charlton Why worry about concepts like egalitarianism? Your race-normed passage through life has mostly been at the expense of whites. Your writing makes Spike Lee look like Tolstoy. Write a check, "Professor." ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 09/01/2007 03:52:59 PM What is a white college? Can someone define that? Amherst, according to demographics is: www.stateuniversity.com/universities/MA/Amherst_College.html Pop. — African American 2,274 Pop. — Asian 3,594 Pop. — Pacific Islander 73 Pop. — American Indian / Alaskan Native 332 Pop. — White (incl. Hispanic) 30,464 Pop. — Other 1,403 So...out of 36,794 people... So about 10% Asian...Asians make up 6% of the population of America. About 6% black (half the black national average) About 1% Native American (which is about their national average) Hispanics, can't tell. What is more important is how many folks apply and how many are competitive... In any case I went to 2 predominately white universities. Oh Polaski, one was in Texas, where I went to grad school where Affirmative Action is not legal. I support my grad school not my undergrad...mainly the grad school I feel needs more support. I've been on the campus of Texas Southern, Hampton, and Norfolk State. Hampton has a beautiful campus but it is like a prison-state, likely to keep all the hard headed thug friends of some of the students out. Their campus is on lock...with guards, etc. They also have a dress code. Being I never went to a "black college" I feel no need to support one. My father went to the Navy College and my mother to Ohio State. I have some distant cousins who went to HBCU that's about it. I think they served an important purpose in the black community at one time because that was the only place blacks could go pretty much. Now many of the best and brightest have moved on to nonHBCU schools but for the very elite ones so the others have really declined in standards (due to student body) and will likely continue to decline. The market is not there because we don't live in Jim Crow anymore. I will be happy when the day comes they all shut down, that will tell me that America has moved past a significant period of racism (although racism might not be gone completely) it will be a milestone that shows black Americans are more integrated. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/ DATE: 09/01/2007 06:40:57 PM Amherst is about 20% nonwhite...or more (I'm guessing Hispanics are about the same as black...) so lets say 25%. For the slow folks that means 1/4 students are not white. Not 33% like the national average, but pretty close considering...equal outcome is not important to me though as much as equal opportunity. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ETS EMAIL: IP: 24.251.8.199 URL: http://YBPguide.com DATE: 09/03/2007 10:48:07 AM Copeland, I too had this problem. I graduated from a top public university and loved every minute of it ... those that I can remember. ; ) In the years shortly after graduating, I specifically gave to "black departments/organizations" at the institution before concluding that my (relatively small) contribution would go a lot farther at an HBCU or other non-profit in need. BUT ... Being a good steward over one's money is more complex than just giving it to "blacks." At the time I considered supporting HBCUs, fiscal mismanagment at several of the "better" ones had become quite public. No matter how small my contribution, I wasn't willing to give them my money just because they were black and in need. I needed to know that my money would be well handled. While I still don't give to my alma mater - despite completely agreeing with Temple3 - I now send my check to any place I believe will be a good steward over my money - black or white, jew or gentile. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ETS EMAIL: IP: 24.251.8.199 URL: http://YBPguide.com DATE: 09/03/2007 10:49:42 AM Copeland, I too had this problem. I graduated from a top public university and loved every minute of it ... those that I can remember. ; ) In the years shortly after graduating, I specifically gave to "black departments/organizations" at the institution before concluding that my (relatively small) contribution would go a lot farther at an HBCU or other non-profit in need. BUT ... Being a good steward over one's money is more complex than just giving it to "blacks." At the time I considered supporting HBCUs, fiscal mismanagment at several of the "better" ones had become quite public. No matter how small my contribution, I wasn't willing to give them my money just because they were black and in need. I needed to know that my money would be well handled. While I still don't give to my alma mater - despite completely agreeing with Temple3 - I now send my check to any place I believe will be a good steward over my money - black or white, jew or gentile. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 09/04/2007 06:18:44 PM "...Now many of the best and brightest have moved on to nonHBCU schools but for the very elite ones so the others have really declined in standards (due to student body) and will likely continue to decline. The market is not there because we don't live in Jim Crow anymore. I will be happy when the day comes they all shut down, that will tell me that America has moved past a significant period of racism (although racism might not be gone completely) it will be a milestone that shows black Americans are more integrated." Decoding more of Dracoon's samboisms: “Even though the HBCU's do serve a population of Black/African students that do not have the opportunities I had as a student, ‘...I will be happy when the day comes they all shut down...’ Because then all of the students shut out of that opportunity will have to learn how to suck out of white ass just like me. As a matter of fact I can show them how to suck out of white ass. It's been said that I am amongst the best suck-asses in negro America. In national competition I was right up there with the other notable sambos such as clarence thomas, ward connerly, larry elders, and armstrong williams. But I believe I could suck those other sambos right under the table. But back to the topic, those Black/African schools do need to close down. Cause you never know, they may be teaching those Black/African students how to be independent and self-sufficient, then you know what that might lead to - independence from white folk, and I just don't think us negroes is ready for that. And remember this people: the white man is always right and should always be in control. Yours truly, Dracoon ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aquafemme EMAIL: IP: 69.3.157.130 URL: DATE: 09/05/2007 02:39:44 PM Sorry, I went to predominately white University of Maryland, College Park. I love my school. When I am able, I will give back to them because that's my school. I'll be damned if I give to some random black school just because. That makes zero sense to me. And if the news is any indication (see FAMU, Southern U, NC A&T, etc.) lord only knows whose house my cash would end up decorating if I did give to an HBCU. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: intelligent1 EMAIL: IP: 64.123.188.3 URL: http://intelligent1 DATE: 09/07/2007 04:44:48 PM Dragon Horse: UMass Amherst has over 30K people, but Amherst College has less than 2K. You got your demographics mixed up ----- -------- AUTHOR: ccopeland TITLE: The End Time: Politics, Policy and the Administrative Presidency STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 PRIMARY CATEGORY: law general CATEGORY: law general DATE: 08/31/2007 11:00:22 AM ----- BODY:

 

 

No president in recent times, especially when faced with diminishing power within the Congress and in the court of public opinion, has failed to set his sights on credible achievements in the dog days of his administration.  At such times, either the fatigue of nearly eight years in office and the power drain that comes from being a lame duck, or the loss of control of a either House in Congress, forces a president intent on relevance to turn to the extensive administrative arsenal at his disposal.  Presidents Reagan and Clinton are the very best modern embodiments of the power of the administrative presidency.  Each, effectively drained of power in Congress by their respective scandals (Iran Contra and Monicagate, respectively), turned to their agencies to make quiet achievements for constiuents and causes not yet fulfilled.  Although the Bush White House has been effective at using the administrative state to implement its policy revolutions in many significant areas, one ought to expect an increase in the activity of this administration's regulatory output, or its opposite -- a quiet rollback in regulations aready issued by administrative agencies.  In a recent article, the Washington Post reported that the regulatory activity that has most marked the Bush years has been a very active call for review of rules in several agencies, primarily the Department of Labor and the EPA.  The article, points out that the Office of Management and Budget, which reviews major rules, has reached out to regulated industries for suggestions of what rules needed to be overhauled or discarded; most responses came from business. 

In January of 2007, President Bush issued an executive order giving him even more authority over the rulemaking process.  The order, which went into effect in July, requires agencies to articulate the "specific market failure" or other "specific problem that warrent new agency action."  Further, the order increases presidential control of agency rulemaking by conditioning its commencemnt on the approval of an agency's Regulatory Policy Office, appointed by the president.  The substance of this order, according to the Post's Cindy Skrzycki, is to "require regulators to consider free-market solutions to problems before issuing rules."  Every president, of every political stripe, is intent on augmenting his authority.  There is no reason to believe that the power grab (whether on the left or the right) will stop when the White House changes hands, even if a Democrat is elected.   

Presidential power and its use is a structral matter, which like federalism, can sometimes either helpful or harmful to a particular agenda, depending on who wields it.  I have no ready substantive response to the particular issue of whether a president ought to have such power.  And I do not know whether my particular complaints about a particular president ought to guide my answer regarding  how power ought to be distributed.  I write to emphasize the fact that the game is going on, and that the stakes of paying attention (or not) -- particularly at the end of this administration -- are going to get higher (see the recent report on affirmative action in law schools by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights).  We had better pay attention to this "quiet politics," because its effects will last far longer than the Bush presidency. 

 

 

 

----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aaron EMAIL: IP: 71.85.145.225 URL: http://moon-shadows.blogspot.com/ DATE: 09/02/2007 03:46:12 AM "I have no ready substantive response to the particular issue of whether a president ought to have such power." I do, such changes which have a direct bearing on the public welfare, health, equity and safety, should be subject to the most stringent congressional oversight. This president has proven time and again that he will be held accountable to no one, not to Congress nor the people who put him in the White House. Given all the backhanded, underhanded and ethically as well as legally questionable methods this administration has employed, you just know it's going to get really ugly in the last year of this administration. I suppose we should count ourselves lucky if George W. Bush has the good graces to leave office quietly and is amenable to the peaceful transition of power that has been mostly taken for granted throughout US history. Prudence dictates that we take nothing for granted when it comes to these criminal charlatans who have disgraced our country with their willful undermining of the Republic's constitutional integrity and casual subversion of the People's sovereignty. I suppose we should be grateful that they haven't set themselves up as Kings already. I have complete faith that WE THE PEOPLE of the United States will elect a Democrat in 2008, either Obama or Clinton, it should be Obama, America desperately needs new leadership for this new century. Let's just hope that whoever ends up sitting in the White House come 2009, will have the strength of character to relinquish the uneven share of power which the executive branch has appropriated during this administration's tenure. As I was reading the article on the mismatch theory, I began to wonder if this was perhaps an attempt to get the affirmative-action issue before the reconstituted Supreme Court. George Bush would love to do away with affirmative action entirely before he leaves the White House. No doubt that would be considered among his greatest accomplishments by his friends and supporters. One of the few feathers in the cap of an administration that history will surely judged to have largely failed in its advancement of the pseudo conservative movement. It's an old story in the conservative camps of white America, if all else fails beat up on the Black folks and minorities, you're sure to feel better about yourself. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 75.33.141.109 URL: DATE: 09/03/2007 02:48:46 AM Aaron: i'm not sure what you're getting at. why do conservatives need to "beat up on black folks"? blacks do a great job beating up on -- and killing -- themselves; why would "conservatives" feel the need to do the same? the one thing i'll never understand about most "educated" black people (and i put the word educated in quotes since these people received their degrees from bad schools or in un-rigorous disciplines, such as critical race something-or-other) is how eager they are to blame whites for all their problems, when in reality blacks hurt blacks more than anyone ever could. the president will probably do a lot of "power grabbing" before he leaves office. no surprise there: presidents tend to do that. i fail to see why you people think this signifies the end of the world. i'm not surprised, though, that you'd think all of this boils down to the white man oppressing the black. that's what everything boils down to, apparently. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 09/03/2007 12:44:39 PM Aaron I think you're wrong about Bush and affirmative action. He made a fool out of himself appointing that incompetent C Rice to positions for which she is cognitively unprepared. Bush's NCLB is a joke, but a smart political move to appease all the blacks that somehow educational policy can eradicate cognitive "gaps."--LOL Bush, at heart, is a feckless diversity pimp, and thus a friend of affirmative action. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 09/03/2007 09:42:33 PM pmsol3.wordpress.com/2007/08/27/debate-bt-of-blackprof-liberal-vs-dragon-horse-libertarian/ Silence speaks volumes doesn't it? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.173.133 URL: DATE: 09/04/2007 02:41:51 PM This one was headed in a pretty good direction until the Village Idiot and BT-Girl showed up. If Obama doesn't want his Obama-Girl, I'll trade! His is gorgeous, shapely, and alluring... The BT-Girl is ugly, skinny, and stupid. Guess I have some work to do on attracting a better class of stalker. I thank both the post author, Charlton Copeland, and Aaron for thier excellent analysis. I believe the Dumby administration is headed for the "Death of a Thousand Cuts". In just the past 10 days we have seen Karl Rove quit, Tony Snow quit, another Republican office holder forced to resign under a cloud in Senator Craig, Gonzo being forced to quit... And probably the most respected Republican Senator in Washington, Warner of Virginia declare this as his last term after breaking with the Administration on Iraq. While the DNC leadership rejects impeachment - that position is at odds with an incresing majority of Americans, and I have to believe, elected rank and file members sitting in the House and Senate. Of particular note - Gonzo's resignation provides an opportunity for the Dems to drive some Texas size stakes through the Beast's heart... Simply by forcing the selection of a replacement who will enforce the law. That could put a number of folks in this Administration in orange jump suits. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: nanakwame EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 09/05/2007 01:12:41 PM http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070905/un_us_economy.html?.v=2 Well Professor you raise a good one. IMHO the changes in the office of President is preparing for some rough scenarios that the above UN Report is alluding to. for too much of a slow economy in the USA, will change some serious international and national political issues. and what some of the Conservatives are afraid of losing touch with the market and making public distance from Bush. - Those who know that wealth is social and not individual. Bush and his think tank have been quietly preparing the White House. I don’t like Robert Byrd but what he stated at the beginning of the war is coming to fruitarian. And TPTB know it!!! I am waiting for the American Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. Bobby Seale said years ago. It won't be black folks in the street will be see; it will be a white revolution.!? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.173.133 URL: DATE: 09/06/2007 05:27:52 PM A victory today for American citizens against the neo-fascist Dumby regime - "A key portion of the Patriot Act is unconstitutional and violates Americans' free speech rights, a federal judge said Thursday in a case that could represent a bitter setback for the Bush administration's attempts to expand its surveillance powers." news.com.com/Judge+deals+blow+to+Patriot+Act/2100-1028_3-6206570.html ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: nanakwame EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 09/07/2007 08:35:40 AM Duke players expected to seek reforms Durham's police department helped Nifong secure the indictments, and a special committee probing police handling of the case stopped working last month because the city's liability insurance provider warned that findings could provide material for civil lawsuits. During a discussion Wednesday with Durham officials, players' attorneys Brendan Sullivan and Barry Scheck stressed that the money they are seeking in the settlement — about $10 million each for David Evans, Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann over five years — must be accompanied by legal reforms, the person said. The attorneys are seeking the creation of ombudsman positions to review complaints of misconduct about North Carolina district attorneys, and they want Durham city officials to lead the lobbying for any legal changes that would require action by the state's General Assembly, the person said. City Attorney Henry Blinder and City Manager Patrick Baker briefed elected officials on the settlement discussions Thursday, according to The Herald-Sun of Durham, which first reported on the settlement demands. It said the city has a $5 million liability insurance policy with a $500,000 deductible. Now BT You see what a couple of rich Euros can do. God we fought for years just to get A Police Review Bd. There is more poverty in the suburban areas than inner city, first time in America. And more older white families I don't care what folks say about you. You got two things I think we need – imagination and tenacity in the pursuit of truth. LOL ----- -------- AUTHOR: batuahene TITLE: Neoliberalism fails to consider the consequences of past theft STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 DATE: 08/31/2007 10:52:44 AM ----- BODY:

This is my last post.  I would like to thank the organizers of blackprof.com, especially Professor Jefferies, for inviting me to participate. Many of the responses to my various posts were thought provoking, so I thank the blackprof.com blogger community for your insights.  

Best,

Professor Bernadette Atuahene

_____________________________________________________________ 

In South Africa, whites own about 87% of the country’s agricultural land although they make up less than 2% of the population.  The dominant belief among South Africa’s Black majority is that whites obtained this property not through their hard work, but instead through systematic land dispossession and other forms of unyielding oppression that began at colonial conquest and intensified with apartheid.  There are several other countries where past theft rather than hard work is widely believed to explain the status quo of property ownership.  Bolivia’s indigenous majority—primarily the Aymara, Quechua and Guarani peoples—constitutes about 62% of the total population.  Yet, the minority—the Europeans and mixed-race peoples—owns the lion’s share of the country’s wealth.  In the minds of Bolivia’s indigenous majority, the present distribution of land is the result of colonial-era theft and is thus, illegitimate.  In 1992, Russia embarked on a privatization program that established its post-Communism status quo of property ownership.  This program was so riddled with corruption that a significant amount of state resources ended up in the hands of a few of Russia’s powerful oligarchs.  As a result, the status quo of property ownership in Russia is widely perceived to be illegitimate.  These three examples are merely the tip of the iceberg; history is rife with similar examples.

Although in certain countries the majority of citizens believe that the property status quo is illegitimate, under the neoliberal paradigm for economic development, property rights are nonetheless given sanctity and enshrined in the constitutions of many capitalist democracies because people have an incentive to work hard and produce if they know that the fruits of their labor are secure and not subject to capricious takings.  The underlying assumption behind the sanctity given to property is the notion of desert.  That is, people generally deserve what they own because they labored for it or received it through the hard work of someone else who bequeathed that property as a gift or in a will.  The “sanctity of property” principle becomes obfuscated when sanctuary is given to property arrangements widely perceived to be defined by pervasive theft.  In such cases, the principle merely serves to ossify ill-gotten gains. 

It is an injustice when the law provides sanctuary to past theft instead of reversing it.  More importantly, this injustice can lead to a marked increase in the cost of enforcing property rights , or in the worst case scenario, a chaotic backlash against property rights.  It is obvious that chaos can substantially disrupt market economies; nevertheless the neoliberal solution for developing successful markets is to deregulate trade and markets, unrestrict flows of capital, reduce government spending, and privatize government enterprises.  The neoliberal agenda often discounts the importance of transforming and thus legitimizing the property status quo to the stability and success of markets. 

If you would like to know more about these issues read my article entitled “From Reparation to Restoration:  Moving beyond Restoring Property Rights to Restoring Political and Economic Visibility”.  You can access my papers on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) at http://ssrn.com/author=533671


 
----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 11:35:36 AM Prof: Great topic...I do wonder why you didn't say some things: you mentioned race and ethnicity in every situation but in Russia you said: "In 1992, Russia embarked on a privatization program that established its post-Communism status quo of property ownership. This program was so riddled with corruption that a significant amount of state resources ended up in the hands of a few of Russia’s powerful oligarchs. As a result, the status quo of property ownership in Russia is widely perceived to be illegitimate." Why didn't you mention that 7 our of 8 major Oligarchs who got major kick backs from Yeltsin who made them rich were Jewish (well okay 6 were Jewish)...one of them Anatoly Chubais was half Jewish/ethnic Russian. Only pure Russian of the top Oligarchs is Vladimir Potanin. In a country where Jews are like 1% of the population that is amazing and Russians being historically anti-semetic were not blind to that fact. I also found it interesting that all your examles involve whites or mixed (with whites). Uhm...what about the Lebanese in West Africa, the Indians in East Africa. The Chinese of Southeast Asia? Hell the Chinese are basically controlling as much of many Southeast Asian countries as the whites in SouthAfrica. The Lebanese in Sierra Leone control amost as much (more than 60% of capital goods). As for the rest it is not quite as simple as you make it...not if you are concerned with economic development the goal of which should be improving the lives of the ave rage citizens and getting them out of poverty. Willy Nilly forced property transfers and nationalizations have never brought about strong consistant economic growth because it scares domestic (and maybe far more importantly) foreign economic investors, I will report my last post from the other post: "In many developing countries there is a very very high income inequality gap that has historically existed. If the governments of these nations are fully democratic or become that way what can happen, and what has often happened in Latin America is populism that leads to radical land redistribution or government nationalizing land and capital on behalf of the "masses" historically this has never turned out well. This is where democracy often comes into conflict with capitalism. You don't want things to get too out of hand because if you run out everyone with capital resources and scare off future investors then the poor will always been poor because they obviously do not have the skills or capital to create dynamic economic growth by themselves, if they did they would not be poor in the first place. It doesn't mean they are hopeless it just means you have to be pragmatic and move in phases. if you want to see successful land reform you can check out S.Korea after the Korean War, especially Taiwan after 1949, and even Japan after WWII. They didn't go all willy nilly with it. They did it in phases and it was successful, at the same time they also were raising the average education level of the people and attracting investment (not aid) but investment, usually from foreign nationals and Multinationals that got people jobs and put money in their pocket...if you do this at the same time as land reform people do not tend to vote for politicians that are promosing radical reforms that are bad for economic growth. So having the ability to do Imminent Dominion, which varies considerably from country to country does not in anyway determine if it should be used or how. American law on the matter means nothing in Kenya, Brazil, Cambodia, Nigeria, etc. There is no international law on this stuff, it is all local. If it not about "conservatives" or whatever. It is about pragmatism. What are you trying to do build a nation? Or are you trying to fight a perpetual revolution that will lower the average standard of living of everyone as the "rich" move and take their money with them and local business closes down and many of those places those people in Shanty towns work, even day labor leave. Is that better? It is hard to balance these things, but wise leaders don't get a tear in their eye at a homeless squater family and then nationalize the block and build expensive high rises...LOL You have to look at the big picture and the long term benifit." Good example of successful land reform: www.taiwan-agriculture.org/taiwan/rocintro4.html ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 11:50:24 AM Prof: I should say that I don't disagree with land reform, in fact I believe it is necessary especially in states that have market dominant minorities, however how one does it is very important. "The “sanctity of property” principle becomes obfuscated when sanctuary is given to property arrangements widely perceived to be defined by pervasive theft. In such cases, the principle merely serves to ossify ill-gotten gains." This is true but it puts us on a slippery slope when many of those people didn't get anything illegally their great great grand parents did...hell in some nations this goes back 400 years or more. It is kind of hard to snatch land from the descendants of those folks when the economy basically depends on them ...what little economy there is and not expect them to jump ship, and when that happens it does not help anyone. Mandela knew this in South Africa which was why he was very conciliatory to whites. If all the whites left and took the money with them. What do you think South Africa would look like today? I suspect much worse than it already is. So I actually respect the ANC for being pragmatic and doing things in phases. Which is also not just affordable for the government tax base, but also does not scare investors, which any poor nation needs in abudance. If China scared off its FDI they would be...well...no better than Laos or Cambodia today. Quick land grabs based on populism don't do anyone any good...as I said it depends on the end goal. Quick justice right now, or a better life life for everyone for a long time to come...another example of delayed gratification. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 12:18:40 PM Translation of Dracoon's samboism: Submit to white supremacy and you will be happier. Just the thought of Black/African people owning and working their own land and businesses drives some negroes deep into stupidity. Black/African people can be successful without white people owning and controlling land and resources that belong to Black/African people. Black/African people need to own and control their land, resources, businesses, and wealth. Black people are being discarded by whites and others as useless air and food consumers. The only way we will survive whites' (and others') next Black/African Holocaust is to build toward self-sufficiency. Why is that so hard for negroes like Dracoon to understand. Even the best of you sambos will not be spared. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Abelian EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.42 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 12:37:11 PM Cracksmasha; I am of opinion that antagonism never solves any problems, why don't you critic Dragon horse's arguements instead of insulting him. Prof; There is a very important pyschological dimension to all this. Most africans have severe inferiority complex such that some of them openly admit that they are not as clever as anyone who happens to have a "white skin". ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 12:57:01 PM Abelian, I do not have the diplomacy, language skills, and patience as many of the commenters here in The BlackProf. But sell-out traitors to Black/African Empowerment must be identified and confronted in the harshest terms whenever they seek to manipulate our people into submission to an inhumane and savage imperialist power. Be reminded that you have your way of addressing ignorance and I have mine. Same goal different strategies. And trust me, the best and brightest of BlackProf’s commenters have attempted on numerous occasions to address and debate Dracoon's asinine self-defeating rhetoric, but he persists with his trolling disrespect of Black/African people. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 01:07:43 PM Does anyone but me see the irony in Atuahene's article? Here is an untalented woman who has been race normed through "elite" schools and lands on her feet at a white-subsidized law school--and she has the temerity to write about "justice"? Give me a break. Smasha, your BS about black self-reliance doesn't wash. Blacks are the world's dependents--even the black upper middle class is totally dependent on affirmative action to maintain its "class." What a joke! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 01:07:59 PM Where did I say black people should not own land or the land redistribution is not a good idea. My only argument was how one should go about it. Some people obviously suffer from lack of reading comprehension maybe next time I will dumb it down some more in an attempt to give affirmative action to the less capable. To be self sufficient, is not an inborn trait, you have to be trained and that takes time. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 01:08:32 PM Where did I say black people should not own land or the land redistribution is not a good idea. My only argument was how one should go about it. Some people obviously suffer from lack of reading comprehension maybe next time I will dumb it down some more in an attempt to give affirmative action to the less capable. To be self sufficient, is not an inborn trait, you have to be trained and that takes time. Why is it some people keep disrespecting this site where the are a guess when one of the owners as told them to cool it? http://www.blackprof.com/archives/2007/07/a_few_more_words_on_civility_1.html ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 01:44:11 PM Albian: You have to remember that Crackhead failed to debate me when I challenged him directly because he admitted, what everyone else already knew...he is ignorant. He made all kinds of excuse...which is basically b@tc#ing out. However he has the audacity to come up in the spot and tell someone what good policy is when he can not balance a check book. That type of person is obviously mentally unstable or a troll. Ignore him ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: nanakwame EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 02:04:13 PM Abelian. Since you are the go between for now. Please take note: When a black person finds a way to belittle what their folks do, a racist finds a way to pig back. This professor is very thoughtful and has done quite a study. But many cann't even deal with this most pressing of issues. For a site that suppose to have up&coming lawyers and scholars, the response to this sister was weak. FYI - Waters Resource Fights have already hit the USA. Take Care Prof Bernadette Atuahene, you make our ancestors proud. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Abelian EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.42 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 02:16:13 PM Crack smasha; I hear. I have no intentions of making cyberenemies. Polanski; I see TypeKey cannot stop a determined hater. Prof; Ignore the comments above, treat them the way you would treat a bawling child who needs to be changed. Back to the important discussion, these trends you mention in your post are disturbing but true. It shows the hold negative thinking has on people. There is nothing genetic as to why an Indian is better at running a shop and the Korean a laundry shop, it is all in the attitude. I know the more exotic explanations of genetics is more popular but the true reason is more boring but very true.....attitudes. I for one do not see why a white person should not own a farm in Africa, if it is legally acquired and well run. We have to learn how to compete. On Capitalism; Using the evidence we have at the moment capitalism is the best way to advance a society. All countries that embraced socialism, communism, theocracy are not doing so well. However capitalism can be a double edged sword as many countries in the west are realizing. Companies are closing their manufacturing units and moving them to China, make more money spend less. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 02:18:16 PM Nelson Mandela?? He is the biggest example of a sell-out negro to Black/African Empowerment there is in recent history. The white imperialist land thieves break into his country, slaughter his people, throw his ass in prison for 27-years, steal all of the land, resources, and minerals of the country that belong to the African people. The Black/African revolutionaries battle the white interlopers to the point where the whites are begging for mercy. In a last ditch effort to save their own asses, the whites free this negro, Mandela, and then he comes out of prison talking about we want to share the land, minerals and resources with the white thieves and murderers. Then to top it off, he kicks to the curb his Black wife, who stuck with his ass through all of the hard times and his 27-year imprisonment. The negro comes out of prison, chills out the Black/African revolutionaries, cuts a deal with the whites to become the president, and allows the whites to keep all of the land, minerals, and resources they stole, while his Black/African people continue to live in crime and poverty as we speak. The sell-out negro should have been run out of town with the rest of the white trash invaders. Then the final kick in the gut: After his release from prison and his miraculous ascendancy to stardom, during a visit to the United States, the negro was asked to comment on white people’s treatment of Black people here in the U.S. and black people’s struggle for human rights. The negro had the nerve to say “I don’t wish to get involved with the domestic affairs of the United States.” Has that negro even erected a wall or monument in honor of the Black/African revolutionaries like Steve Biko who gave it all in the revolutionary process only to benefit his ass. Yea, Dracoon, I can see why you speak so highly of Nelson Mandela. Both of you negroes are the antithesis to Black/African Empowerment. South Africa could have been the hub of Black/African Empowerment and progress. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 02:20:01 PM nanakwame: If you believe the response weak, then please enlighten us all to the better solution taking into account current economic realities? I would love to hear your "none-weak" solution to such complex problems. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 02:25:53 PM Craka: I am not concerned with what Mandela said about American race issues. I'm concerned about what he did for his people as far as developing his nation economically. Please explain to all of us, who you feel don't have a clue, what was the correct approach to economic development and land reform in S.Africa that would have ensured continued economic growth in order to help insure black people came up from the endimic proverty they were in at the time of his release. We would all love to hear it. We will wait for you to give us your brillian master plan that was superior to what the ANC same up with. We all know you are a great leader of black upliftment who have brought many a black nation to first world status. LOL ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 02:25:53 PM Craka: I am not concerned with what Mandela said about American race issues. I'm concerned about what he did for his people as far as developing his nation economically. Please explain to all of us, who you feel don't have a clue, what was the correct approach to economic development and land reform in S.Africa that would have ensured continued economic growth in order to help insure black people came up from the endimic proverty they were in at the time of his release. We would all love to hear it. We will wait for you to give us your brillian master plan that was superior to what the ANC same up with. We all know you are a great leader of black upliftment who have brought many a black nation to first world status. LOL ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Abelian EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.42 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 02:30:19 PM Crack smasha; I have to politely disagree with you over Mandela.I suggest you do up some reading on this issue. Mandela was wise enought to see the challenges and navigated the ship in what was potentially a very explosive situation. In case you do not know the White South African army was very powerful and could have crushed all African countries with ease, having access to nuclear warheads, biological and chemical weapons. Mass slaughter of whites would have been catastrophic. I know that is not what you want to hear, but sometimes the stronger and wiser person is the one who avoids destroying himself while trying to destroy his enemies. Mandela was actually a very radical activist in the 50's, he was caught on his way to place a bomb. So calling him weak is doing diservice to his great struggle. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 02:43:49 PM ALbian: Now you are about to see uneducated people either not respond or go way off subject calling names and talking all kinds of radical nonsense about what people should do or should have done when in reality they have no concept of the fundamentals of what a nation needs to do to develop to pull its people out of poverty or the sacrifices and difficult designs that entails. Wait for it...Silence or Ignorance that is all you will hear. If Nelson Mandela had did what Crackhead had suggested. Blacks would have been in Ecstasy. They would have got justice in S.Africa. There would have been parades, no doubt ethnic cleansing as well. They would have been so proud. Then 6 months later they would have starved. 6 months later the government will go into more and more debt as exports of various things like gold and diamonds started falling as efficiency lagged. Why? Are the blacks stupid? Nope. It is the fact that it takes time to train a workforce, to train management, to develop trading links, to understand how to make international business deals, to understand the market...these things don't happen in 6 months. So you will have companies with all black management where some of them don't even understand the economic data on their desk and many of the farms won't produce efficiently. All that flag waving ecstasy won't mean a thing when you can't feed your children, and the inflation's is through the freaking roof....oh but you got you some land though...right? Oh yeah didn't mention that the FDI would come to a trickle as European, Asian, and North American investor inflows would fall off due to fear of instability and proper nationalizations. Foreign AID..yeah right...IMF and the World Bank (controlled by the West) will cancel all future loans. So who is going to built that infrastructure...improve the plumbing, keep up the ports, create new schools, build new hospitals, bring in new high tech machine tools, etc? LOL These people crack me up. They live in a fantasy world. If it was so simple they would either be leaders of something significant or many many other people who are much more intelligent than them all day everyday would have figured it out and most of the nations on earth would be rich or at least middle income. LOL. Not that simple. Arrogance and ignorance have never done anything in the way of bring large masses of people out of poverty. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 02:56:12 PM Crackhead: so far: 564 words 2855 characters 45 lines What has he said: samboism negroes deep into stupidity so hard for negroes sambos I do not have the diplomacy, language skills asinine a sell-out negro throw his ass The negro The sell-out negro white trash negro even erected to benefit his ass of you negroes Solutions to Economic Development: "0" Solutions to land reform: "0" Intelligent contribution to topic: "-1" Embarassment to educated black professionals: Priceless. Prof: Bernadette Atuahene as an educated black public intellectual I humbly request you delete this nonsense. Including my responses to him and so we can just focus on your post which was quite thought provoking. Thank you. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 03:02:49 PM I meant that Prof. Atuahene was the educated black public intellectual not I...I'm just a guy trying to become a professor. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Abelian EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.42 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 03:05:32 PM Dragon horse; If you do not mind me asking, are you asian? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 03:08:38 PM No, I'm African American. I lived in Asia for awhile. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 03:13:57 PM No, I'm African American. I lived in Asia for awhile. I would prefer to stay on subject as I find this interesting and I am hoping someone else has something intelligent to say on this subject. If you want to know about me you can ask at my blog. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: jb EMAIL: IP: 70.124.86.36 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 03:24:35 PM Polanski; I cannot tell if you "own your ignorance" or whether you are a lefty parroting a caraciture of a righty, but your words are generally offensive, as are those of cracka smasha who lends so little substance to any conversation. I believe that the author of this post, Professor Bernadette Atuahene, graduated magna cum laude and thus has earned her stripes and then some. Moving on... Does anyone know how much of the property in the US has been inherited and how much property has been purchased through the sweat of the owner's brow? Also, how far back in history does one have to go before one can have ownership free and clear? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Abelian EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.42 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 03:27:56 PM Dragon horse; I hope you noticed the " If you do not mind" part. But you are right let's stick to the topic. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 03:43:36 PM Ableen, In South Africa the slaughter of whites should not be the first option, nor did you ever read anything I wrote stating whites should be slaughtered. The whites of South Africa should be given the opportunity to correct their murderous and theiving behavior. You must understand that whites are the only people who invade other people's environments with the intention of killing and claiming what already belongs to others. Secondly, whites would not have invaded South Africa if there were no resources to steal and claim for their own. Do you and Dracoon think that there was no life before the whites invaded? The fact is there was abundant life in South Africa prior to whites. There were resources and minerals there prior to whites. The only thing that whites did was claim the land, resources, and minerals for their own and established trade with other white nations, including the United States. Do you mean to suggest that Black people could not learn or be trained to harvest their own resources and minerals? Yes, they could have done it for themselves while at the same time enriching the whole of Sub-Saharan Africa instead of enriching Europe and the United States. The time-table of the African is not that of the European. The European seeks to use up and waste all of the World's resources as quick as possible. That is not the lifestyle of the African. The only rush to exploit Africa was by the whites who sought to steal as much as possible before the Africans could awake to what is happening and revolt against white control. Africa had and has enough resources to sustain itself for many years to come. Mandela should have nationalized all of South Africa's land ownership, froze all of the whites’ bank accounts, and systematically began the process of returning the land to the people. International trade with non-white countries could have been commenced if the whites sought to control the nations economy. Nope, not a perfect solution but I would take that over waiting for whites to develop a conscience and surrender their aspirations for white supremacy over Black/African people. China is a good example of what a country can do when it rids itself of white imperialist exploitation. Now the United States and other European nations deal with China with respect and mutual benefit. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: jb EMAIL: IP: 70.124.86.36 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 04:05:26 PM CrackSmasha said;"You must understand that whites are the only people who invade other people's environment..." Is there any reason that you think you are different than Polanski???? By the way, I have been robbed twice lately and neither time was but a white man. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Abelian EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.42 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 04:06:45 PM Crack smasha; You complain I put words into your mouth yet you do the same and I quote; ...."Do you and Dracoon think that there was no life before the whites invaded? The fact is there was abundant life in South Africa prior to whites.... What makes you think I am advocating a pro-white anti-black viewpoint. I am not. I just refuted your comment that Mandela was butt kisser. I gave you reasons why hurried poorly thought out actions would have ended causing more misery. For one the apartheid system made sure no African got beyond cooking in the kitchen and cleaning toilets. To fully comprehend this system imagine the KKK controlling the, the Police, the Banks, the Hospitals, the mines, the schools, the farms and worse of all a finger on the Nuclear button. There was no way the kind of adrenalin-inducing action you are proposing would have worked without causing a catastrophe. The South african army generals had a secret plan to bomb everything to dust should things go the wrong way. The only was the way Mandela took a gradual process of empowering the hitherto powerless africans. But you are also right that the Africans have to start having pride in themselves and pull themselves out of the predicaments they are in. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 04:25:02 PM bj, To take a man’s wallet, watch, car, personal belongings is bad and wrong. But to take a people's land, resources, minerals, future, and hope is the way of whites. Can't you see the difference? Why would you want to compare the act of a confused, ignorant, desperate negro who has been robbed of knowledge of self and heritage, with the race enslaving, conniving, murderous, theiving, raping, child abusing behaviors of whites against Black/African people? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.126 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 08/31/2007 04:25:41 PM In South Africa the slaughter of whites should not be the first option, nor did you ever read anything I wrote stating whites should be slaughtered. The whites of South Africa should be given the opportunity to correct their murderous and theiving behavior. You must understand that whites are the only people who invade other people's environments with the intention of killing and claiming what already belongs to others. Wow I guess Mongolians and Hun never invaded Europe? LOL Tukic/Mongol tribes never took over Russia and Ukraine. Blacks /Arab/Berbers never colonized Spain. In any case how does this help land reallocation or economic development in 2007. Secondly, whites would not have invaded South Africa if there were no resources to steal and claim for their own. Do you and Dracoon think that there was no life before the whites invaded? The fact is there was abundant life in South Africa prior to whites. There were resources and minerals there prior to whites. South Africans blacks were not mining gold and diamonds in South Africa before Affikaaners came. Although I do believe the first diamonds were found by local Africans, they attributed no value to them. Diamonds are only valuable due to demand from the market. It appears local Africans didn’t seem them as valuable so they were no better than quartzs. To my knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong) there was no gold mining in South Africa during the precolonial time period. It is one thing to know resources are there. It is quite another to mine it, refine it, make various contacts, market, sell it on the international market and to do it all cost effectively. How is it that barely literate black South Africans can do this if they are never trained. If you brought in poor ignorant backwoods Ukrainians they could not do it either. It does take some skill to run a multi-billion dollar global business and compete in world market place. It is not as simple as nationalizing something and kicking out white people. Someone has to run it. The only thing that whites did was claim the land, resources, and minerals for their own and established trade with other white nations, including the United States. Do you mean to suggest that Black people could not learn or be trained to harvest their own resources and minerals? Yes, they could have done it for themselves while at the same time enriching the whole of Sub-Saharan Africa instead of enriching Europe and the United States. Sorry that is nonsense. As I said, claiming something does not make you rich. No, blacks could definitely learn and be trained the point is it takes time. Where does the money for this training come from when you nationalize the industry and kick the whites out and they take their capital and know-how with them? Who pays for that? Foreign investors? Why would a foreign investor invest in a nation where their assets might be seized? The World Bank or IMF? If you do not even maintain property rights and reallocate the correct way they will not give you loans. So what is S.Africa supposed to do genius? Enrich the entire continent of Africa, 800 million people in an area the size of Europe and North American put together…how does South Africa do that when they have over 30 million needy people? Hell China as large as it is is still working on massive development projects in its own border, they are definitely not at the point they can “enrich Asia” how does S.Africa do that? Do you live in the real world? The time-table of the African is not that of the European. The European seeks to use up and waste all of the World's resources as quick as possible. That is not the lifestyle of the African. The only rush to exploit Africa was by the whites who sought to steal as much as possible before the Africans could awake to what is happening and revolt against white control. Africa had and has enough resources to sustain itself for many years to come. Not the life style of the African? Can you please explain to me what life style do all 800+ million people on the African continent have? I was not aware that they all had the same culture and living standard. Please describe that in detail. I do agree Africa is not resource poor, just capital poor (including human capital) which will take some time to change. Mandela should have nationalized all of South Africa's land ownership, froze all of the whites’ bank accounts, and systematically began the process of returning the land to the people. International trade with non-white countries could have been commenced if the whites sought to control the nations economy. Are you crazy? International trade with non-white countries? Like who? Do you think if Mandela didn’t do that the UN under pressure from the West and Japan would not have slapped all types of sanctions on South Africa, turning it into a pariah state? How would that have benefited black South Africans? They would have become poorer? Who is going to farm the huge industrial farms? You don’t think that takes massive training as well as equipment? Do you want black people to be able to eat beyond of a subsistence level? The only people who will trade with S.Africa if they did what you said would be smugglers and other rogue nations which could not provide most of what S.Africa needs to develop. All aid would also be cut off, which S.Africa is dependent on to improve the black areas of the country. You really don’t understand how the world works on an international level do you? Nope, not a perfect solution but I would take that over waiting for whites to develop a conscience and surrender their aspirations for white supremacy over Black/African people. China is a good example of what a country can do when it rids itself of white imperialist exploitation. Now the United States and other European nations deal with China with respect and mutual benefit. You would take that, because you eat everyday. Your big talking black behind is not going to give up your citizenship and move to such a failed state but you sit in your air-conditioned room in front of your state of the arm computer and preach that foreign black people who are already poor should impoverish themselves even more so YOU can feel justified. That is the height of selfish narrow minded reactionism. Have you ever been to a developing nation? I have. Do you know what real poverty is? I’m not talking South Central L.A and Harlem where 50% of the people are overweight complaining about how they can’t afford cable TV and new tennis shoes…I’m talking about malnourished people who can not even go to an emergency room to get basic health care, where there is no running water, where schools have dirt floors and children study by candle light because they only get electricity a few hours a day if that??? I have seen that world. You are crazy. China did not build itself up by itself. China got major investment from Hong Kong (A British colony at the time) and Taiwan (a major trading partner of Japan and America) who invested capital into China to lower the cost of their own manufacturing. China also did join ventures and used revenues to improve their education system and also improved their agricultural system. They did not scare investors off, but courted foreign investment. They used revenues and FDI to built up their infrastructure and send more of their students abroad to study in Western nation, Japan, and Singapore to learn the latest engineering, comp sci, etc. You think all this happened over night. First off China didn’t kick out “the white devil” the white people were kicked out by Japan during WWII, and after the War the Communist beat the nationalist party, most of who fled to Taiwan. China got a lot of aid from other white people, the USSR until the 1960’s when they started fighting them along the border, meanwhile between 1950-1975 of 50 million Chinese people died during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution thanks to the communist party under Mao. After Mao’s death, Deng Xiaoping was rehabilitated and brought China into modernity by creating market reforms, and he sought Western multinationals to come into the country where he did joint ventures so his people could learn the latest manufacturing technologies. So no, sorry China did not develop, somehow, magically out side the international market and with no white people involved that is complete nonsense and can only be spoken by someone ignorant of history. The thing that China did do though, that was intelligent, was: 1) Agricultural reform which gave them more revenue to invest in infrastructure 2) They had stability and a low crime rate and a huge labor pool that was cheap. 3) They had ethnic Chinese people living off their border in Taiwan and Hong Kong who were willing to invest. They also had Japanese investment and American. 4) The size of their internal market is so huge it is not only sexy to foreign investors who want to deal in China but also it can spur some of its own growth (as in America) and does not have to be so export dependent 5) Chinese reformed and promoted high education at the best universities in Asia and the West and actively sought to get their people into those schools. They also created joint ventures so they could learn the latest technologies from the developed world 6) The average Chinese person at the time when they opened their market was literate and had some basic education which is important for the type of industry you can bring to the country. Read a damn book sometime ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: jb EMAIL: IP: 70.124.86.36 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 05:11:53 PM Cracka Smasha; Neither time was I robbed by a "negro," much less a "confused, ignorant, desperate negro" as you put it. As for the rest of your post, I reiterate, what makes you think that you are one whit different than Polanski? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 05:40:57 PM It appears that too many negroes have thoroughly convinced themselves that the World and all of the people in it are dependent on whites for their existence, development, and empowerment. The whites see ignorant negroes like Dracoon and thrust these sambos into leadership positions to misguide and mis-educate other Black/African people. What this fool suggests is that Black/African need not waste their time thinking about empowerment and self-sufficiency because we are not capable of anything but service and entertainment for white people. However what you will never convince this fool is if Black/African people just did business with ourselves Worldwide, we would experience a substantial increase in the prosperity of Black/African people throughout the World. But instead too many of us allow whites and their sambos (like Dracoon) to create and manifest the belief within us that we need to give our business, land, and resources to whites instead of doing business with Black/African people. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 05:49:29 PM jb, If my comments confuse you or upset you to this extint: DON'T READ THEM! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/ DATE: 08/31/2007 06:04:21 PM Update: Crack"head" Smasher: so far: 564 words 2855 characters 45 lines What has he said: samboism negroes deep into stupidity so hard for negroes sambos I do not have the diplomacy, language skills asinine a sell-out negro throw his ass The negro The sell-out negro white trash negro even erected to benefit his ass of you negroes It appears that too many negroes thrust these sambos whites and their sambos Solutions to Economic Development: "0" Solutions to land reform: "0" Intelligent contribution to topic: "-1" Embarrassment to educated black professionals: Priceless. Prof: Bernadette Atuahene, I recognize you as an educated black public intellectual, and humbly request you delete this nonsense. Including my responses to him and so we can just focus on your post which was quite thought provoking. Thank you. Cracka: If you really want to help black Africans, or black people in developing nations world wide. I suggest you drop the late 60's revolutionary rhetoric. Didn't work, never has worked, and never will work. Even Africans don't talk like that anymore. Do you know any? I do. I know black Africans from Ethiopia, Eritrea, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, and Botswana. None of them talk like you. They talk like me, because they are educated, have common sense, and know the reality of their native lands. In the 60's Black Panthers were selling Mao's Little Red Book around Berkley, today even Chinese realized they could not be self sufficient and raise their standard of living to be competitive with the great powers. They even dropped Mao's nonsense. They did that in 1976, over 30 years ago. Where have you been. If you want to help, then get a degree in economics or finance. Go to grad school and get an MBA or major in international economics or economic development. Once you learn how the international system works, how Foreign Direct Investment works, how International aid works and what agencies administer it. once you learn about the World Trade Organization...then you can talk to me boy. Have a good weekend. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 08/31/2007 06:45:03 PM Interesting arguments coming from polar opposites in terms of black identity... I believe the professor's argument was that neoliberalist economics don't take into account past injustices which have led to huge economic differentials between whites and browns/blacks in many post colonial countries. In that - one would have to include the United States. Ferengi's biggest error is in arguing the SOuth African blacks didn't have the necessary business skills. The more salient, and correct argument would be that they didn't have the connections. Post Colonial business connections provided the market for the white South Africans - a market which excluded blacks through economic segregation. They system of Apartheid was abetted and aided by other countries, including Israel, and Netherlands. A faustian bargain based on exlusive distribution rights for certain resources in exchange for technology (including the nuclear weapons and bio-warfare technology) and a wink-wink nod-nod aquiesence to the Apartheid system. Insofar as post Apartheid South African blacks - some of them seem to be penetrating businesses exclusively reserved for whites under the apartheid state, and doing quite well, Thank You. There is still a long way to go. Smasha seems to want to argue that the ANC sould have forced a quick transistion excluding whites from the equation - either through ethnic cleansing or deportation. That wasn't practical for a number of reasons, some of which were enuciated by Ferengi and AB. The nuclear option never was on the table as anything but a threat, and became a Damocles (sp) sword hanging over the white South African's heads. Use of nuclear weapons would have triggered the major powers MAD directives - in essence rendering the use of nuclear weapons... Suicide. It would be nice if the perpetrators of the crime could be made to pay some form of restitution. Unfortunately, both the diamond mines and the gold mines are at the end of their productive cycles. Those veins already have been tapped, and there just isn't any more blood to be had by nationalizing those resources. South Africa, as such will have to develop a new economy. It likely will be based on agricultural exports (such as their excellent wines), manufacturing for the continental market, and tourism. The only logical course is to promote and effectuate black participation in full partnership in the developing economy. Throwing the whites out... Just isn't going to work. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 71.109.12.103 URL: DATE: 09/01/2007 12:28:08 AM BT, Is there any pressure being put on whites to return stolen land to South Africans? And now that the military/police power in South Africa has shifted, what are the feelings of the impoverished Africans towards whites? Or are they destined to be impoverished for life while many of the whites in South Africa remain on stolen land and continue to develop wealth from Africa's resources and minerals? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: jb EMAIL: IP: 70.124.86.36 URL: DATE: 09/01/2007 02:24:52 AM CrackaSmasher wrote;"If my comments confuse you or upset you to this extint: DON'T READ THEM!" You have finally made me smile. As far as being upset by your words, I consider the source. Generally, I would have to respect someone for their words to have a significant effect. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 09/01/2007 09:29:49 AM Smasha - There is pressure to return land to the black South Africans. Especially the large choice agricultural tracts. Whether that would eventually be through some sort of buyback or land reparations agreement, I don't know. That probably is the biggest potential flashpoint. Certainly there is enough hatred and distrust on both sides to go around. The balancing act is going to be how to get the black Africans engaged in the new economy on an equitable basis - and thus generate a significnt black middle class based on new opportunities. Apartheid left a mess which will take several generations to clean up. We've been fighting the vestages of Amrican Apartheid in this country for over 40 years... And there is still a long way to go. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Abelian EMAIL: IP: 88.67.29.187 URL: DATE: 09/01/2007 01:01:52 PM Smasha; It is not so easy to solve this problem. It is like a native american coming to your property and claiming it as his ancestral land. Would you give it up willingly? I am sure you will fetch a shotgun and defend your property. Some of the White south african own land legally, they cleared mashes, bushes or whatever and built sucessful farms so we it does not make sense to seize every white owned farmland. There has to be consesus. No one wants South Africa and Namimbia to go the way of Zimbabwe everybody loses. Things have to proceed carefully and without chaos and without hurting anyone. The whites born in South Africa have the same rights like you have as an American whose ancestors originally came from another place. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 09/01/2007 05:00:47 PM Land Reform in General: www.cfr.org/publication/9475/land_reform_revisited.html South Africa: Demands for faster land reform news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4720023.stm African News Site: www.ipsterraviva.net/Africa/viewstory.asp?idnews=294 South African Government land.pwv.gov.za/home.htm African Professors Take www.africafiles.org/article.asp?ID=3649 ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/ DATE: 09/01/2007 06:52:14 PM From the Economist www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=9124780 " TWELVE years ago, Barry Levinrad, who works for the Department of Land Affairs in George, on South Africa's scenic Garden Route east of Cape Town, used to receive death threats. Today, he says, life is a lot more peaceful: very few people now disagree that land ownership needs to be reformed. At the same time, it is widely agreed that the chaotic land transfers in neighbouring Zimbabwe should be avoided. But this change in attitude has not been matched by much progress on the ground. There, frustration among poor rural people is mounting. AFP It would be nicer to hoe for herself When the African National Congress (ANC) took power in 1994, with the black majority's overwhelming backing, whites owned about 87% of South Africa's farmland. The new government set a target for at least 30% of it to be transferred to blacks by 2014. More than a decade on, only 4% has changed hands. Now, under pressure from its core supporters, the government says it will expropriate more land and review the willing-seller-willing-buyer principle under which it has operated so far. ... Why has land reform been so slow? Land restitution, or compensation for those blacks who were forced off their historic land after 1913, as in the case of Pniel, has in fact gone quite smoothly: 90% of claims have been settled, mostly in cash. But many larger, more complex rural claims are outstanding; redistribution to new owners has been much slower. Part of the problem is red tape and incompetence. Like most arms of government, the Department of Land Affairs is short of trained officials. Tales abound of unanswered phone calls, missed appointments and lost files. The government, for its part, accuses farmers of inflating land prices and stalling on negotiations. ... There is no shortage of willing sellers, though. About 5% of farmland has been up for sale every year, which in theory makes the 30% target look easily obtainable. In KwaZulu-Natal, black farmers have actually bought as much land on their own as the government has redistributed. But there is often a mismatch between the farms for sale, usually quite large ones, and what would-be farmers can buy with the small government grants they receive. By law, to preserve efficiency, farms may not be subdivided. And though exceptions can be made, getting permission for them is cumbersome and rare. ... South Africa's white-owned farms were built up over many decades, with massive government support. But subsidies and trade barriers have vanished over the past decade, so commercial farmers have been opting out in droves, unable to make ends meet: from 60,000 in the early 1990s, there are 45,000 today. Successful farms have got larger, with machines replacing labour. Hundreds of thousands of farm workers have lost jobs. The government seems unclear about what sort of farming it wants. New and inexperienced farmers are unlikely to survive on small plots without a lot of support. What the government provides is often too little, too late. Three years ago, Leonard Le Roux, a coloured (mixed-race) farmer and 41 others pooled their grants to buy Die Kop, a farm in the Karoo, the vast dusty grassland in the south and west of the country. But it took two years to get money from the government to buy equipment. The farm survived mainly thanks to a neighbouring farmer, who lent implements and advice. “It's not the lack of will but rather the lack of synchronisation between state and market that fails land reform,” says Mohammad Karaan, who chairs the National Agricultural Marketing Council. ... Another group of prominent Afrikaner businessmen and academics is organising hands-on support and encouraging partnerships between new and old farmers in the Renosterrivier area, in the Free State. Large sugar mills are also supporting small black farmers, buying what they produce and helping with advice and finance. Lulama Xingwana, the agriculture and land affairs minister, promises to shake things up still more. “If we don't get land reform right,” says her deputy, Dirk Du Toit, “we're sitting on a time bomb.” ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 71.109.12.103 URL: DATE: 09/01/2007 11:45:32 PM BT and Abelian, Thanks for the input. Abelian, you make a good point about defending my land. But my ancestors were dragged over here from Africa. The whites of South Africa passed on land that was stolen from the Native South Africans. Big difference. But I would agree that the US government does owe Native Americans much land or payment for what was taken. Just as the US government owes kidnapped enslaved Africans (now their descendents) much land and payment (reparations) for past and current crimes and inhumane mistreatment. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 09/02/2007 01:37:58 AM Cracker Smasher: Speaking of owning...questions. What does the governments of Africa owe us for selling us? "Bishop Charles G. Palmer-Buckle Of Ghana introduced an unexpected twist into the consideration of Africa and the history of slavery in the Americas when he apologized on behalf of Africans for the part Africans played in the slave trade. "Please forgive us if in any way we contributed to what you had to suffer," he said." findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_39_38/ai_91970779 You really don't think whites ran all up in the jungle grabbing black folks with all that malaria and African sleeping sickness they had no immunity do did you? Typically they would pay black tribes to enslave neighbors. What does the U.S. government own blacks whose ancestors owned slaves? "The census also determined that there were fewer than 385,000 individuals who owned slaves (1). Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country (or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves). snip on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city. Snip In Charleston, South Carolina in 1860 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings (5). In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners (6)." Keep reading it gets better. americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm Cracker did any of your ancestors own slaves?? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 09/02/2007 10:17:36 AM Wow! Lizzie Fawn goes back to form quoting neo-confederate and white supremacist sites. One of the reasons you will never make it in an legitimate Phd program - is your inability to analyze your sources for accuracy... Or validity based on your anti-black bias. Google Robert M. Grooms... Other than this single article, and an arrest report - there isn't a single ink to any background information, academic credential... Or further publication. Who is the "Barnes Review"? "The Barnes Review is a magazine founded by Willis Carto, dedicated to historical revisionism such as Holocaust denial. Willis Carto had earlier founded the Institute for Historical Review in 1979 but lost control of that organization in an internal takeover by former associates." Wikipedia The Barnes review can be found here: www dot barnesreview dot org Check on the right hand side of the page where we are treated to such "august historical tomes as: "March of the Titans - A history of the White Race" "The Myth of the 6 Million" "Hitler's Jewish Soldiers" Lizzie - Coonin' for Massa and kissing his white ass... Every day. And it isn't even worthwhile taking apart Grooms' "research" as much of it comes straight from neo-confederate, white supremacist screeds and has already been massively discredited. Damn! There goes another pair of steel toe, Made in the US, Size 13... Broghans... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 09/02/2007 10:37:56 AM It gets better... A little about Lizzies hero, Willis Carto - the creator of Mr. Grooms... You can find a comlete background at the ADL: The Populist Party In 1984, Carto attempted to extend his influence into electoral politics by creating the Populist Party. Promoted as a contemporary incarnation of the late 19th-century Populist movement, its 1984 platform called for "respect for racial and cultural diversity." But Carto's prejudices were given voice later in the same platform, which quietly invoked Yockey's characterization of Jews as "distorters": "The Populist Party will not permit any racial minority, through control of the media, culture distortion or revolutionary activity, to divide or factionalize the majority of the society-nation in which the minority lives." Along with more broadly shared conservative goals like abolishing the Equal Rights Amendment and ending busing, party planks have included repealing the federal income tax, abolishing the Federal Reserve (which is owned by "international bankers") and abolishing immigration. The new party was first led by Liberty Lobby and Spotlight staff members -- Carto was a member of its Executive Committee -- along with a number of KKK leaders and hate group figures; its first national chairman was former Klan leader Robert Weems. Initially, The Spotlight heavily promoted the party and took credit for its "phenomenal growth." Its efforts in the 1984 Presidential race yielded little success, however. With former Olympic pole-vault gold medallist Bob Richards at the top of the ticket, the party received 66,000 votes nationally. (Richards later repudiated the party.) Infighting soon split the ranks, and Carto and his followers were thrown over. In 1987, he established a separate faction under the leadership of Don Wassall, which continued to call itself the Populist Party. David Duke accepted the party's presidential nomination in 1988 and received slightly less than 50,000 votes. Thereafter, Wassall broke with Carto because of financial and managerial disputes, and Carto -- through The Spotlight -- quickly became the party's most vehement critic. His major vehicle for electoral outreach became the Populist Action Committee, established in 1991, which backed such candidates for office as Illinois neo-Nazi Art Jones and former George Lincoln Rockwell lieutenant Ralph Forbes of Arkansas. And Lizzie is quoting these guys! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 09/02/2007 11:15:54 AM Lizzie launches - "You really don't think whites ran all up in the jungle grabbing black folks with all that malaria and African sleeping sickness they had no immunity do did you? Typically they would pay black tribes to enslave neighbors." Do you realy want me to take apart this bit of white supremacist apologist crap as well? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/ DATE: 09/02/2007 12:13:58 PM yawn... BT: None of that refutes any data of black slave owners. The more you talk the less intelligent you make yourself appear If a racist or borderline racist says it does not make it a lie in and of itself. Please provide evidence there were not thousands of black slave owners in the South. Are you saying there were no black who owned slaves in the South? LOL My mother's family owned a house slave (that we like to call a "servant" for obvious records) in Louisiana in and around the 1850's and they were not "rich". Please show that blacks Africans did not help enslave Africans to sell to whites in mass. Hell even roots shows blacks involved in slave trading...that is common knowledge, which is why a Ghanaian publicly apologized on behalf of his countrymen. Is he a racist front for white supremacy too? Reality is many black tribes got rich off of slave trading with European and Arabs. Your a reactionary child who can not control his emotions long enough to think straight. Question BT: Who ended slavery in Africa? Was it Africans? Fact is this. If black people were not complicate in slavery in Africa it would never have happened on the scale it did. Look around the world, Africa was the last major continent colonized fully by Europeans. However they didn't enslave masses of other people in the scale they did black Africans. Why is that? You think Europeans are Gods and they can just swoop down from heaven and do what they want. LOL Your logic is. If someone who may or may not like black people says the sky is blue then it must not be blue. LOL Wow that is a Red herring, association fallacy,Appeal to spite take your pick...it is all illogical emotionally driven pseudo intellectual vomit. Meanwhile: www.amazon.com/Black-Slaveowners-Masters-Carolina-1790-1860/dp/1570030375 Black Slaveowners: Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860 University of South Carolina Press Ed Hopkins said a long time ago on this site,September 26, 2006 04:06 PM www.blackprof.com/archives/2006/09/national_slavery_museum.html I too am a Civil War buff (and a buff of U.S. History in general and the History of War throughout the world). However, the reasons for why Black soldiers fought for the South, against the North were probably based largely on their economic interests and antebellum U.S. property rights laws (Blacks could own Black slaves, but they could not have contracts with White indentured servants). Antebellum Black entrepreneurs and slave owners in the South believed their businesses would be impacted negatively if their slave laborers were freed. For example, Black antebellum planters (many of whom were also slave owners) believed their agricultural enterprises would be destroyed if their Black slaves were freed. And, they believed it would be difficult to compete against other former slave owners, especially White slave owners, for cost-effective laborers in the open market if slaves were freed. Few Whites would work for Black entrepreneurs, and few Blacks might have worked for Black entrepreneurs had property rights protecting the interests of slave owners not existed. Additionally, keep in mind that slaves represented substantial capital investments in human capital. They could be used on the slave owner’s entrepreneurial projects or hired out. And, many of them had valuable managerial and technical skills and experiences that were not easy to find in White laborers. Some slaves were indispensable intrapreneurs, overseeing the lucrative business operations of their owners. In fact, poor Southern Whites were more likely to perform very dangerous, life-threatening labor than Southern Black slaves, because slave owners would lose too much from their investments in human capital if their slaves were accidentally killed while working. The value of a slave owner's slaves could represent a substantial portion of his wealth. So, slave owners, White and Black, viewed freeing their slaves as akin to taking their capital without just monetary compensation. And, for some Black slave owners, the potential economic loses resulting from stripping them of their slaves, wealth, and abilities to retain their statuses as competitive entrepreneurs might have been viewed as worse than maintaining the status quo, with respect to the institution of slavery. Black slaves were not allowed to fight for the South, of course. Yet, there are at least a half dozen reasons for why Black slaves supported the South (they built forts and bridges, cooked meals, tended to the wounded, etc.) during the Civil War, ranging from decreasing the likelihood that they would suffer from malnutrition and disease due to the economic hard times that befell the South during the War; to fear of being punished for failing to support their owners (many of whom were off fighting in the War and few were certain as to which side would win the War until 1864); to fear of being forced to return to Africa; to fear of a life beyond the plantation they could not be certain would be better; to authentic love for or loyalty to their slave owners. It would take me more time than I have for this extemporaneous comment for me to post a decent bibliography, and a professional history scholar (not just a buff) might do have more to offer; however, two resources come to mind faster than the dozen or so I might recommend. They are The History of Black Business in America by Juliet E.K. Walker. Chapter 3: Business Activities of African American Slaves, 1790-1865 is especially elucidative. And, the recently published five-volume Africana: The Encyclopedia of the African & African American Experience edited by Kwame Anthony Appiah and Henry Louis Gates Jr. Its entry on the Civil War can be found in Volume II and provides a concise write up about how free Blacks and Black slaves alike supported the North and the South during the War. Want to try to deal with the evidence and not attack the messenger...you might actually look somewhat intelligent, as opposed to a reactionary and mentally deranged. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/ DATE: 09/02/2007 12:17:08 PM BT: Do you think the following renound black scholars are also racists and Uncle Toms? They said the same thing. The only thing you can argue on is the numbers, not the fact that many blacks owned slaves. "The History of Black Business in America by Juliet E.K. Walker. Chapter 3: Business Activities of African American Slaves, 1790-1865 is especially elucidative. And, the recently published five-volume Africana: The Encyclopedia of the African & African American Experience edited by Kwame Anthony Appiah and Henry Louis Gates Jr. Its entry on the Civil War can be found in Volume II and provides a concise write up about how free Blacks and Black slaves alike supported the North and the South during the War." This is where EC Hopkins got his info. Black HARVARD Professors. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/ DATE: 09/02/2007 12:31:00 PM Lets keep score of BT's accomplishments: 68 lines 650 words 3466 characters Childish low brow school yard Insults: -white supremacist apologist crap -Lizzie Fawn goes back to form quoting neo-confederate and white supremacist -One of the reasons you will never make it in an legitimate Phd program - -Coonin' for Massa and kissing his white ass... -Damn! There goes another pair of steel toe, Made in the US, Size 13... BTs Stats 1) A white man is racist, which is not the point of any of this. Wow...when you consider the fact that this subject is controversial for obvious reasons it is not shocking that white people interested in it may be racist. The issue is not the bias but is any data correct. 2) BT's arguments against the existence of black slave owners - "0" 3) BT's arguments against black African involved in black African transatlantic slavery - "0" 4) BT implies anyone who says blacks owned slaves is a "white supremacist apologists", which means imminent Prof. Henry Louis Gates, Kwame Anthony Appiah, Juliet E.K. Walker are self hating black people and Harvard is a racist institution for publishing their material 4) BT's embarrassment to black American people for appearing so ignorant on a site called "Black Professor" that is viewed internationally: " Sadly Priceless" (sigh) ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/ DATE: 09/02/2007 12:46:06 PM Damn BT... University of Wisconsin is a racist institution too...must be according to you because they also say their were black slave owners: www.uwec.edu/Geography/Ivogeler/w188/south/charles/charles3.htm I admit it is not really an academic sources as they only site one academic book...and another source but...this is the net... I know BT I know...University of Wisconsin, Harvard, Black Professors at Harvard, Ghanian religious leaders all apologist for white supremacist...all just liars. LOL Oh wait A black man, Edward P. Jones signs copies of "The Known World." writes a book with a entire chapter on black slave owners: "The novel, which was a National Book Award finalist and is being touted as a possible Pulitzer Prize nominee, tackles a neglected chapter in American history: black slave owners in the South." Snip "He decided to write about black slave owners because of a fact he once heard in college. “Something went off in my brain in the late 1980s, I guess. Then I began to form a novel around whatever the first thought was,” he recalls. He would think about the story while on the bus, grocery shopping or watching a movie, “working things out, making things logical. If you do it long enough it doesn’t take very long once you sit down to pull it out of your brain.” He bought several books about slavery but didn’t read more than a couple chapters of each for research. “I’ve always believed fiction is fiction. I’m surprised that people who wrote fiction books borrowed from their own lives. That’s probably why it’s taken me so long to write ’The Known World,”’ says Jones, who won the PEN/Hemingway Award in 1993 and was a finalist for the National Book Award for his first book, “Lost in the City,” a collection of short stories about life in 1950s-1970s Washington, where Jones grew up." www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4400636/ Damn he must be being paid off by white racists too... LOL...meanwhile BT fantasizes about anally penetrating other black men with his foot. (sigh) ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 09/02/2007 01:03:53 PM Damn BT: More damn black sellouts...lol Some Gullah people owned slaves too...damn Gichies...must be some of Clarence Thomas' people. LOL www.gullahtours.com/dereef.html Should I star posting historical documents (actual documents) siting Ghanians trading rifles for black slaves so they could fight other Africans BT? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/ DATE: 09/02/2007 04:54:47 PM For everyone intelligent The point is not to condemn black people or demonize people or take away responsibility for white slavers. The point is that blacks in Africa at the time did not think in terms of "black nationalism" or "racialism". In fact, it is reasonable to argue, the idea of nationalism in Africa did not exist in the SubSahara, but maybe in Ethiopia. What Africans saw is tribes and clans and they knew they had local rivals. If a strange looking foreign (a white guy) comes by some huge ship (you have never seen before because you don't have them) and brings you some sticks that can make "thunder" (a rifle, which native Americans thought were magical instruments that could create lightening) and they say they demonstrate the power of these weapons, and they tell you they will sell them to you for slaves. A lot of Africans took advantage of this and saw a way to advance their own territory. Remember Europeans did not start invading in the interior in Africa until the 1800's but the slave trade with Europeans started in the late 1400'searly 1500's. It was logical for them to act this way as long as the Europeans did not threaten them directly. No one could see what would happen 300 years down the road. In the Americas...there were generations of slaves born here by the mid 1800's. Some thought slavery was evil, ran away, tried to free others (the Harriet Tubman, the Fredrick Douglas types)...I'm 100% sure that some also thought slavery was normal and bought into the system and if they or their parents or grandparents managed to get free they were concerned with themselves living well and not other black people so they to brought slaves, tried to own plantations, etc. Did the majority of black people free in the South do this? Nope, but it is historically verified that a good many did. So my point to Cracker was what do Africans owe us for selling our ancestors? What do "white" people owe black people whose direct ancestors also owned slaves? The truth is slavery was very complex and anyone who has done an honest reading, like E.C. Hopkins, knows that. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 09/02/2007 06:44:42 PM Lizzie tries - "None of that refutes any data of black slave owners. The more you talk the less intelligent you make yourself appear If a racist or borderline racist says it does not make it a lie in and of itself. Please provide evidence there were not thousands of black slave owners in the South." You haven't provided any credible evidence there were "thousands" of black slave holders in the South. What you have provided is a article by a ficticious black person written by a white American Nazi... Which has been totally debunked... And made a complete jackass out of yourself... Again! Now - the rest of your pitiful whining is nothing more than the little girl who got her hand caught in the cookie jar trying to change the subject... "The Devil made me do it!" As to EC - if he wants to discuss the issue - I'm more than happy to factually discuss (in detail) Plantation records, Census data, and Newspaper articles going back to the 1650's from any of the areas in Virginia and North Carolina mentioned by your "imaginary Kneegrow." Especially since I have over 40 years of published and unpublished research into the subject from half a dozen real hisorians (unlike your imaginary Kneegeow). I imagine EC (not to mention the rest of the regulars and dozens of lurkers) is laughing his ass off at your lame attempt beg and plead for him to come to the rescue... But it wasn't EC who came on here and made a complete ass of himself (which, from reading his past writings, would floor everyone here) ... That was all you, Lizzie! In Lizzies high pitched whine (which sounds a lot like Little Richard)... "Oh please EC! Save Me!" Save Me!" I done made a complete fool of myself, and that mean ol' BT done pointed it out again! Guffaws! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 09/02/2007 07:34:59 PM Lizzie squeals- 1) A white man is racist, which is not the point of any of this. Wow...when you consider the fact that this subject is controversial for obvious reasons it is not shocking that white people interested in it may be racist. The issue is not the bias but is any data correct. 2) BT's arguments against the existence of black slave owners - "0" 3) BT's arguments against black African involved in black African transatlantic slavery - "0" 4) BT implies anyone who says blacks owned slaves is a "white supremacist apologists", which means imminent Prof. Henry Louis Gates, Kwame Anthony Appiah, Juliet E.K. Walker are self hating black people and Harvard is a racist institution for publishing their material What's really pathetic Lizzie, is you would try this on a site by Law Professors, and peopled by Lawyers! Sadly for you - Someplace in the process of becoming a Lawyer, the students are trained in critical listening, reading, and thinking... To reduce this to something high-schoolish enough for you to understand, Ill reduce this to the words of our p-Resident - Dumbya! These folks are literate... Yeah! And they can read!" I don't know everyone's exact background. But I have to figure, some of the folks here are either ex-Judges, or potential Judges, or prosecutors - who have heard just about every dumb lie and lame excuse ever come up with... And you really want to make a jackass of yourself again - in front of ALL of these LAWYERS and Professors, by intentially misinterpreting what I said... When it is right there in black and white for all to see? Guffaws! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: IP: 64.151.32.196 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 09/02/2007 09:48:41 PM oh lawd, it's been a brutal day today in the dragoncave..., www.haloscan.com/comments/bookerista/8522557303443608867/#796709 run off homebase, he's suffered a ruthless brogan induced S&S comeuppance over hee'yah, as well..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: polanski EMAIL: IP: 68.38.193.9 URL: DATE: 09/02/2007 10:44:20 PM Yeah, I feel a need to comment on slavery--BIG YAWN Here's a topic: Was affirmative action the elephant in the room in the Duke rape hoax? Wahneema Lubiano's IQ is___? Another question: Where can one find the stupidest professors at any so-called elite institution? A. physics B. English literature c. black studies Bonus question: Is there a conspiracy among dumb black profs to promote the idea that all whites are "racist" so the profs can shame whitey into not throwing them out with the day's trash? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 09/02/2007 11:10:58 PM Actually, I think DH did quite well today, certainly it is true, blacks did own slaves. Many did this for family members so they could free them, but others did do this for profit, I don't think this historical fact can be disputed. But if people are to get serious about reparations, in America, the question of who should get them and who should pay would have to be addressed. Other legal questions like the statue of limitations might also come into play. Do we look through family lines and see who owned slaves and charge them for damages? Should all white people be charged for damages? Should mixed people be eligible for compensation? Or because they are mixed, one side of their family would be charged and the other compensated, it would be a wash. What about the generations who lost an ancestor in the civil war, what is the value of that life? Should this be considered in the charges against the white individual? What is the value of war time service for fighting for slave liberation and not losing the ancestor's life. Should this be included in the equation? What about Africans who immigrated 1 year, 5 years, or 10 years ago, should they get compensated. How about whites who recently migrated, should they be charged? I think the longer these type of issues go on without answers the more difficult and complicated these questions will be. Cracka, since you have brought this issue up more than once, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on who should be getting compensated and who should be doing the paying. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 09/03/2007 01:41:38 AM Damn, Nulie! Lizzie done caught so many Size 13's today... He gonna have to quit posting and open up a Pay Less One-Size Shoe Store! Proctologist had to take out the zipper he put in for my modest Broghans ... And put in a Bulldozer, cause folks are whuppin' on him so bad! Now - he's even got a spiked heel collection! Wasn't it just a week or two ago he went on about how he liked it over there at Shay's? Guffaws! And Ken - If you think Lizzie had a good day... Seek Help. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 09/03/2007 03:00:21 AM BT, If the way of telling a person had a bad day is by how many personal insults he had, then I would agree DH had a bad day. But if we talk about the issue, in this case, how to administer reparations, I think DH successfully pointed out that the people who are pushing for this have no idea who should get it, or who should pay for it. By the way, I also read the link at the other site, and it looked like a non issue oriented tit for tat insult game. And maybe this is what blogging is all about. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: IP: 64.151.32.196 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 09/03/2007 05:30:32 AM the rev. dissembles..., there was no tit-for-tat at bookerrising. assfarengi sold a bunch of wolf tickets about the discourse at P6 and was invited to pay a visit and elevate the game. given his recent history of calling folks out to debate, one would think he'd leap at the opportunity. predictably, however, his trepidation at being exposed as an obsessive anti-Black propagandist and gasbag will not permit him to bring his noisesome extrusions to a blog uninfested by conservatives, coonservatives, and outright racist trolls. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 09/03/2007 10:48:16 AM Lets keep score of BT's accomplishments: 68+ lines 650+ words 3466+ characters Childish low brow school yard Insults: -white supremacist apologist crap -Lizzie Fawn goes back to form quoting neo-confederate and white supremacist -And made a complete jackass out of yourself... -One of the reasons you will never make it in an legitimate Phd program - -Coonin' for Massa and kissing his white ass... -Damn! There goes another pair of steel toe, Made in the US, Size 13... -ficticious black person written by a white American Nazi -little girl who got her hand caught in the cookie jar trying to change the subject... -Lizzies high pitched whine (which sounds a lot like Little Richard -he's even got a spiked heel collection! -Bulldozer, cause folks are whuppin' on him so bad -He gonna have to quit posting and open up a Pay Less One-Size Shoe Store! -And you really want to make a jackass of yourself again BTs Stats 1) A white man is racist, which is not the point of any of this. Wow...when you consider the fact that this subject is controversial for obvious reasons it is not shocking that white people interested in it may be racist. The issue is not the bias but is any data correct. 2) BT's arguments against the existence of black slave owners - "0" 3) BT's arguments against black African involved in black African transatlantic slavery - "0" 4) BT implies anyone who says blacks owned slaves is a "white supremacist apologists", which means imminent Prof. Henry Louis Gates, Kwame Anthony Appiah, Juliet E.K. Walker are self hating black people and Harvard is a racist institution for publishing their material 5) BTs attempt to sway the topic by implying he didn't mean blacks did not own slaves but now it is about the number (how many) is weak as his original statements are clear. 6) BT's embarrassment to black American people for appearing so ignorant on a site called "Black Professor" that is viewed internationally: " Sadly Priceless" Ken: You can tell when someone says something write, because BT becomes infantile and relies on insults as if he is some street corner hood. He still has not produced any evidence of the level of black slave owners. He has produced no evidence that various black tribes in West Africa were not complicate in the slave trade. He also does not want it discussed. He thinks by acting like a deranged idiot and appealing to emotion someone will forget what it is he wrote. And why is it the coward who has so much to say has not posted the records he claims and why is it when challenged to debate 1:1 not 1:4 or 1:5 he is nowhere to be found. He is a joke and a troll and I will be forwarding all of this to both Professors as they have made it clear this behavior is not wanted on this site , however since BT has no respect for himself he will have none for this site, so this is not surprising. Why BT can not control himself I don't know, but now I'm convinced he is a liar and has not accomplished anything he says. When is the last time you have seen someone so educated and successful act in such a disgusting and ignorant manner? Oh well I will take this up with Prof. Jeffries. Cnulan: If you want to debate one on one, and not in your personal echo chamber the invitation is also open to you as well. Maybe you are more of a man than BTs. I doubt that though and that is not saying much in the first place. www.blackprof.com/archives/2007/07/a_few_more_words_on_civility_1.html ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 09/03/2007 10:57:52 AM Ken Sez - "If the way of telling a person had a bad day is by how many personal insults he had, then I would agree DH had a bad day." Lizzie does seem to have a way of bringing out the best in other bloggers! Ken dissembles - "But if we talk about the issue, in this case, how to administer reparations, I think DH successfully pointed out that the people who are pushing for this have no idea who should get it, or who should pay for it." The discussion wasn't about "reparations" in America, it wasn't about slave holding in the United States... It was about land redistribution strategies in Africa, and how a specific economic philosophy treated those issues. It further wasn't about introducing yet another racist screed from a white supremacist - and then when caught at it - trying to weasel out that he didn't know his source. This is the second or third time he's been caught introducing material from white supremacist organizations or mouthpieces here, he did so several times over at Dell Gines... And apparently he got caught introducing Jared Taylor’s racist crap over at Shay's. Then the most asenine thing Lizziecoon does - is to then reference research by “Prof. Henry Louis Gates, Kwame Anthony Appiah, Juliet E.K. Walker” , and even beg EC Hopkins - which if Lizziecoon wasn't so busy trying to suck Massa's weenie, he could have referenced in the first place, and had an intelligent discussion with some real facts and figures... And – at least a scintilla of academic validity. Lizziequeen wants to bend over and service white supremacists for fame and fortune. He hopes to one day join the conservative Uncle Tom Circus through the blogsphere. The Circus, being a group which has never been known to have very high entry standards in the first place. Confusing the ability to spout vast amounts of verbiage, courtesy of modern technology, with the possession of an above par intellect, about the only thing he has accomplished so far is to become the black blogsphere’s most prolific and stupid troll. He has earned nearly universal approbation and disrespect. As to the “uncomfortable truths about the black community” which is the black conservative Uncle Tom’s stock in trade – deriving such on the basis of falsified “research” and racist sources places folks like Lizzie beyond the pale… And certainly below the level of any respect from rational individuals. Like I said before – “Seek Help” Ken… Because on this one – “You ain’t gonna’ get it here.” Lastly – if you really want to understand why your boy is fronting garbage – you may want to investigate the series of legislative acts starting becomming the Virginia Slave Code of 1670, copied by almost every other slave holding state – and the “Black Codes” implemented from 1823-1835 in every southern state. Yeah – It’s right there in black and white. Which doesn't get around the issue that Lizzie has fronted, and introduced white supremacist material on black blog sites numerous times in an attempt to disrupt reasonable and rational conversation. There is no hiding from that. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Mwafrika EMAIL: IP: 196.207.17.139 URL: DATE: 09/03/2007 11:04:33 AM Dragon; BT, The topic of slavery, who's responsible, role Africans played, reparations ,who's entitled to reparations, etc. needs to be tackled and debated exhaustively in a separate thread that deals with the issue specifically (hopefully blackprof owners will introduce one). Cracka; Describing Mandela as a butt kisser is a little bit too harsh. The man was a fire spitting radical but mellowed with time or became 'pragmatic' as dragon would put it. Upon his release, the man still associated and visited anti imperialists; Castro and Gadaffi who stuck by him throughout to the chagrin of America and Europe. Mandela is one of the very few respected public personalities who publicly told off Bush as he prepared to attack Iraq. He voluntarily relinquished power - a very rare feat in Africa, more remarkable, considering his massive popularity. However, the constant harping by liberal media, describing Mandela as the 'epitome of racial harmony', we-can-all-get-along, 'how black and white can work together' just because of his reconciliatory stance toward white, does irritate. Back to the topic. Prof does mention what went wrong in Russia. Other examples include Kenya, which like Zimbabwe and South Africa was a settler colony (colonies where white settled in large numbers and determined to make countries their own), embarked on a land redistribution policy immediately it got independence. The process was however riddled with corruption, favoritism and tribalism that it ended up benefiting a few black as opposed to the masses. The process simply replaced white colonial land owner with new 'black colonial land owner'. I don't advocate the process be discarded all together, be a system be formulated so as process can be accountable and transparent. Zimbabwe and South Africa have been veritable time bombs and the issue requires (d) utmost urgency. It's important to note that white hegemony is totally opposed to the land redistribution and embarking on the process without back up plan (how to deal with white power backlash i.e. sanctions, aid freeze etc.) can be disastrous - just ask Mugabe. White hegemony is determined to make Mugabe fail, lest neighboring South Africa dare 'pull a mugabe'. If you plan to do a Mugabe as Cracka would advocate, make sure you have extraordinary thick skin like Castro (Cuba) or massive oil reserves like Chavez (Venezuela), Gadaffi (Libya), or Ahmedinajad (Iran). Redistribution or affirmative action has however successfully worked in some countries. Malaysia is a prime example, where ethnic Indians and Chinese once controlled the economy leading to massive riots by the native ethnic Malays. Thanks to affirmative action, ethnic Malays are now at par and even surpassed the ethnic Chinese and Indians. The process was achieved without necessarily disfranchising the Chinese and the Indians. Personally, I don't believe in land or resource redistribution as a means to an end. Consider the following common scenario; Black African mine owner takes over from previous white owner. Black African owner invariably retains status quo i.e. mistreats and underpay fellow black. Black owner still export product in primary form, hence exporting jobs and profiting white countries. Having 'made it' he hobnobs with white and constantly wonder what's wrong with fellow black folks - why can’t they be like white or at least Asian? My point - the process normally create a handful of elite black African rich or sambos as some of you may call them whilst massed remain in poverty. Now, don't get me wrong, I’m still an ardent believer of black empowerment. I however believe what we need is a paradigm shift in our thinking. There are approximately 900 million plus black or people of African descent around the globe. Now, imagine the 900 million plus as active consumer and producer market as opposed to majority (especially Africans) who live in passive existence or Latin American who are scrambling to "pass". Imagine black mining companies, black companies prospecting for oil in Africa (instead of Europe, America and china), black diamond industry, and black diamond wearers. …Blacks forming and owning black TV networks, tackling predominantly black issue (hence fighting ignorance so prevalent in our community)supported by 900 million plus black viewer ship… …Black beauty and cosmetic companies; catering for unique and beautiful black skin and hair; scrambling for 900 million plus black consumer… …African companies exclusively awarding tenders to black construction companies… …900 million plus blacks buying black music, catapulting black conscious artists as opposed to current multi platinum misogynist, butt kissing, self hating black musicians cooning for white consumer… …Black blogs averaging at least 50 million hits from black across the globe… …Black this, black that, black etc. etc. I ask; would any body really be able to stop the black juggernaut? Wouldn't the rest of the world be scrambling to offer black benevolence like they are doing in china? I hope for the day... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 09/03/2007 11:14:26 AM BT: 1) No the site was about land redistribution, and the entire time Cracka was throwing racist nonsense and racialist rhetoric and calling for ethnic cleansing and genocide, obviously having no clue what it was he was talking about. You took no issue with that at all. Is that the vaunted intellect you claim to see on this site, is he the epitome of it? I'm not an expert on land redistribution but am obviously better read on it then most people on this blog and because I state clear facts on the issues, and also things to look for and potential problems he calls childish names. 2) Cracka made the off topic statements about reparations in the United States, not me, which have nothing to do with the post, so I wanted to get his opinion on it being he said "whites owe" this...what do others owe and who is owed? These questions are legitimate 3)As long as you have known me do you think I "hate" black people or want to see racists in charge of the United States. What do you think they would do to me? Instead of acting like a child you could easily said or asked "do you know that the site or the references for the site are from a white supremiscist or suspected white supremiscist? I would have said, "No, I was looking for real data and numbers which are hard to find as primary source data is hard to come by on the net, so that others can view it, but I do know that black slave owners existed because I have seen a television show with Henry Louis Gates and also I remember the sources from E.C. Hopkins. You couldn't do that because you have to act like the ignorant black n@gg@$ the white racist wants you to be. Yes that is what I said, an "ignorant black n@gg@$ Instead of acting like an intelligent black male who can reason and speak with civility. I have been in academic debates before. Do you think any real public intellectual acts like that, ever? Well if you are aiming at being Michelle Malkin then you are on your way, however she is a clown and obviously not well read and says nothing insightful. Jared Taylor is a moron. I've stated this several times on various sites and even argued against him on Shay's site as she posted a link to something Pat Buchanan said based on Taylors crime states. However you don't see things like that, you assume and you never ask any questions due to your arrogance. 4) None of the above, in any way, was necessary. It was childish and pathetic. Act like a man. All of this has been sent to Prof. Jefferies...and I encourage Ken to also e-mail him. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 162.83.113.215 URL: DATE: 09/03/2007 11:27:50 AM Lizzie sputters - "Why BT can not control himself I don't know, but now I'm convinced he is a liar and has not accomplished anything he says." Gosh Lizzie - It's high tide in 2 hours. So I am off on my nonexistent little pocket yacht, from my nonexistent dock, through the nonexistent inlet between the nonexistent barrier islands, to the nonexistent Atlantic Ocean... To catch some nonexistent fish. Since I haven't put a sat dish on the boat yet... You have the floor to whimper, whine, and lie all day! That is, until I return to the nonexistent DC area. And while I am nonexistantly enjoying myself, I think you owe everyone here, including Professor Jeffries... An explanation as to why you have consistently, and repeatedly quoted from American Nazi, white eugenacist, and white supremacist sites to disrupt topics. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 09/03/2007 04:11:29 PM Mwafrika: In the end, I don't have much more to say on the subject then I have. I'm for land redistribution, I believe it is critical to further economic development, however I also believe it should be done intelligently. I will take the very recent words of Lee Kuan Yew (of Singapore) under advisement, as he knows more about nation building and economic development than any one on this site and any professor I have ever had. His results speak for themselves. Relatively well off people can afford to have ideology, poor people can not, they need to be pragmatic. Lee explains: "Singapore’s secret, Mr. Lee said, is that it is “ideology free.” It possesses an unsentimental pragmatism that infuses the workings of the country as if it were in itself an ideology, he said. When considering an approach to an issue, he says, the question is: “Does it work? Let’s try it, and if it does work, fine, let’s continue it. If it doesn’t work, toss it out, try another one.” The yardstick, he said, is: “Is this necessary for survival and progress? If it is, let’s do it." www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/world/asia/02singapore.html?_r=2&ref=asia&oref=slogin As for BT: 1) He has lied once again. I have posted info from two "closet (not overtly)" racist sites twice on this board that I recalled. Once this was shown to me I quickly explained the accident and re-posted data from legitimate sources. End of story. 2) BT is typical of black men of his time. He has an obvious inferiority complex. This is why he keeps b