From today’s Associated Press: `
Spider-Man 3' Nets Record $59M in 1 Day
Saturday May 5 12:19 PM ET
"Hollywood's biggest superhero now has the biggest box-office debut. "Spider-Man 3" took in a record $59 million domestically on opening day Friday, breaking the previous all-time high of $55.8 million for "Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest" in its first day last summer.”
I haven’t seen the film yet. My wife took our eight year-old son last night His feeling is that, on the scale of important events in his so-far brief life, seeing this film first night eclipsed his actual birth. I didn’t join them because I was busy with work, and the following synopsis at Yahoo Movies aroused the Paul Mooney in me:
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808496334/details
“Peter Parker has finally managed to strike a balance between his devotion to M.J. and his duties as a superhero. But there is a storm brewing on the horizon. When his suit suddenly changes, turning jet-black and enhancing his powers, it transforms Peter as well, bringing out the dark, vengeful side of his personality that he is struggling to control. Under the influence of the suit, Peter becomes overconfident and starts to neglect the people who care for him most.”
Now, I’m not one of those “everything in life is racial – even spaghetti” types, but why even evil Spiderman gotta be Black?
----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/05/2007 06:45:30 PM no hidden racism here.., Venom (the black suit) is an alien symbiont. It's part of a larger story cycle that began in 1988. Not to get all fanboy on you or anything, but when the Marvel writers did their most awkward treatment of Black folks, it had a decidedly different flavor than what you see with a complex storyline featuring an ominously Black (like Black Widow spider) parasitic costume. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/05/2007 06:50:21 PM Here's a clever take on Marvel's racial stumbling and bumbling ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael Fisher EMAIL: IP: 166.214.139.154 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 05/05/2007 06:52:05 PM Hey Bill. Since folks here have NO idea how the Hip Hop industry really works, why don't you do a little post about how you see the diffence between the industry now and how it was on Elizabeth Street in, let's say, 1986-87? Later, Michael ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: IP: 68.217.9.240 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 07:26:53 PM Bill, Please provide the disclaimer you didn't know spiderman went to an alternate universe to battle other superheroes and returned with the black matter. Most people who have comic book history know this. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 69.86.156.240 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 07:34:10 PM also, what's up with all these racist kids who are "afraid of the DARK." ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 09:18:44 PM The costume's color has nothing to do with race. Let's save this type of issue for the AOL Black Voices forum, next to the discussion on R. Kelly's love child. To use cnulan's words: "If you've read anything .. "insulting" between the lines, well..., that's between you and the voices in your head brah..," ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: rikyrah EMAIL: siport27@aol.com IP: 172.133.89.140 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 09:20:31 PM it was meteor ooze. Maybe they could have used something other than Black, but what color then? Couldn't use green, because they'd be accused of ripping off Superman and Kryptonite. Blue? Would you really think that Blue would denote a sad change in Spidey? White? The costume would get dirty. Yello? Who'd be scared of a spiderman in a yellow costume? Brown? Pink? Purple? I'm usually feeling folks, but this conversation is going the way of Tom Joyner and J.Anthony Brown about ' hidden racism' (cue the echo sound). ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: rikyrah EMAIL: siport27@aol.com IP: 172.133.89.140 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 09:26:27 PM I did see the movie, and while it wasn't as good as Spidey 2, very few movies could be as good as Spidey 2. For a self-avowed movie fanatic, it was just the right beginning to the Summer Movie Season. Considering the misery that was last summer, looking at the schedule, I think I'll be in the movie theater 3 out of every 4 weekends from now until Labor Day....and, that makes me a happy camper..LOL ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: M. EMAIL: IP: 69.251.184.57 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 10:44:35 PM I think the problem goes further back -- by about 400+ years. By referring to Africans as black instead of brown and Europeans as white instead of yellow, Europeans constructed races within the pre-existing good/evil Christian symbolic dichotomy. As far as Spiderman 3 is concerned, I'd also like to add that it's horribly predictable in the dull, Joseph Campbell sorta way. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael Fisher EMAIL: assaultonblacksanity@gmail.com IP: 166.214.139.154 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 05/06/2007 04:54:42 AM Bill: Chuck recently said the following on his blog, publicenemy.com: THE BUZZARDS OF BUSINESS On the contrary the news reports of Lyor Cohen and Russell Simmons trying to gather the hip hop current bangers for fixing hip hop's flat tire in the light of anus, remarks - is like what? You go figure. These two, I've known, have always followed the dollar and this time the desperation could be off the fact the available dollar is no longer there for the recording business as it was. Gone. And Russell and Lyor gutted and cashed out their assets long ago. Now they wanna put out a bonfire with a watergun. Sht, gimme a break. Buzzards. A buzzard is not a bad bird they just capitalize on the dead. If NAS says hip hop is dead, remember it can still thrive in a zombie state and spread dead spirit like Rap of the Living Death. TUPAC and BIGGIE get killed and like a buzzard, 1998 replaces the image with DEF JAM icons DMX= PAC, JAY Z= B.I.G. = Brooklyn's best. Again being a buzzard is not always a bad thing, they just wait for the smoke to clear and scoop the death into a business. As far as life (and a woman is life itself, which explains the lack of a woman's voice and brain in hip hop ... again = death) Again a buzzards attitude can be glued to your average hustler, dealer, pimp agenda. By any means necessary life for a few at the expense of death for many. Can't ask a buzzard to save a life. Given that you were both, a pivotal component of PE's development, and at the true hey-day of Def Jam, Def Jam's Vice-President of marketing and Promotion, what's your take on the matter? take care, Michael ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 06:13:02 AM similarly, why does night have to be black? seriously, what's that about? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: IP: 68.217.9.240 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 07:47:37 AM Michael Fisher, You are the baddest brother in the blogosphere and no one even come close. Keep up the good work and just be you. So what's up Bill, no comment? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Joan Steptoe EMAIL: IP: 151.196.233.56 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 10:42:28 AM Well, hopefully, one of issues that the moderators of blackprof.com invited Mr. Stephney to discuss is hip hop --its contents and discontents. In Mr. Stephney's defense (and he certainly doesn't need it): many of us work for institutions that are problematic either at their core or in their effects. It is ignorant when the media (or us) assumes that one black person represents all black folks. Likewise, it is ignorant when we assume that one employee--however highly placed--represents all people within an organization. With that said, I still do hope that Mr. Stephney posts a response to Michael Fischer's question and engages the problems of hip hop's depictions from his insider's point of view. Mr. Stephney: the blackprof.com community needs to learn from your understanding of hip hop and not just your fun-spirited view of Spider Man. So I am looking forward to a substantive commentary on hip hop from you and I wish you best wishes. ~Joan ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael Fisher EMAIL: IP: 166.214.195.240 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 05/06/2007 11:12:05 AM "Likewise, it is ignorant when we assume that one employee--however highly placed--represents all people within an organization." Dear Ms. Steptoe. Not to step ony your toe, but that "ignorant" statment is just ... In any case, Bill and I have known each other and been colleagues in the Hip Hop industry for some twenty years. Thus, being a bit knowledgable about the "people and organization" myself, I know that Bill is quite qualified to answer these questions. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: setting the record straight EMAIL: IP: 70.124.86.36 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 02:22:09 PM Black has always been the color which denoted evil throughout human history. It was only in recent times that black America demanded to be called "black." Can't we find something more legitimate to lament? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: gt EMAIL: IP: 74.98.254.227 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 02:55:02 PM i think there was a very clear racialized theme to spiderman 3. not only does the black suit bring out his macho, aggressive side, but it gets him strutting (like, really strutting...or white man strutting anyway) about town with some funk-like tunes playing in the background (alluding perhaps to a cultural turn to blackness as well). ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill Stephney EMAIL: IP: 138.89.99.21 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 03:30:14 PM My rage over the portrayal of our people as "VENOMS" is intensifying... Think clearly people: Spiderman = White and Good Venom = Black and Evil Venom = Poison Poison = Black Folks Please believe the algebra here...in fact, due to my builiding personal anger over this cinematic insult, in subsequent posts, I shall refer to this reprehensible character only as: ...the "V-WORD." ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill Stephney EMAIL: IP: 138.89.99.21 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 03:35:05 PM Mike Fisher, Hello, old friend. Good to see you amongst people of intellect here. Have no fear - I'll chime in on the Artistry Formerly Known As Hip Hop in a minute. How is our old chum, Roy, the Black Prince? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill Stephney EMAIL: IP: 138.89.99.21 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 03:45:47 PM Keto said: "The costume's color has nothing to do with race. Let's save this type of issue for the AOL Black Voices forum, next to the discussion on R. Kelly's love child." I say: Fine, so I guess we won't see you at the "Marvel Comics March for Dignity" I'm organizing - I'll leave you off of the e-mail blast update list. Further, please leave Black Voices alone. Where else can significant numbers of adults engage in extensive critical discourse about the merits of Beyonce's lacefronts... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: drsnacks EMAIL: IP: 141.156.239.126 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 10:01:57 PM R Kelly has a love child!? By who? It's Beyonce, isn't it? Where's the Black Voices forum, now? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael Fisher EMAIL: IP: 166.214.33.162 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 05/07/2007 04:26:11 AM "How is our old chum, Roy, the Black Prince?" Roy Cormier with the coconut lotion? He's fine. Taking care of his child, bought a few apartment buildings and fast food franchises. The things you can do with Hip Hop money... when you're a black man. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: bolezn@hotmail.com IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 05/07/2007 06:34:57 AM this entire post is nonsense. Cnulan was right, anyone who read comics at the time (which I did) know the Venom story from the Secret Wars Marvel Comic Story Arc. It has nothing to do with race. When Marvel wanted to exploit black characters in the 70's (Blade, Cage, etc) it was totally different. Black did not all the sudden become associated with negative or evil in 1988 or 2007, this has been a common theme in Europe and Asian for thousands of years. Get over it. On a site called "Black Prof" I would expect a more nuanced argument than knee jerk reactionary rhetoric that I could find in the hood in front of the liquor store. Don't black people have any bigger problems in America than what color Spider Man's suit is? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill Stephney EMAIL: IP: 138.89.105.25 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 10:14:07 AM Dragon Horse says: "Don't black people have any bigger problems in America than what color Spider Man's suit is?" I say: Of course we do. But when has proper prioritization of meaningful objectives ever stopped us before? This film is going to earn $1 billion dollars worldwide. I won't rest until every projectionist showing the film is fired by Loews, AMC, Clearview and Sony immediately. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: mister EMAIL: IP: 217.225.115.66 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 10:26:29 AM PUUULEAZE MISTER AUTHOR, U CANT BE SERIOUS!?!? Now, I’m not one of those “everything in life is racial – even spaghetti” types, but - ok, stop right there then. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: bolezn@hotmail.com IP: 162.6.224.224 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 05/07/2007 11:19:59 AM "This film is going to earn $1 billion dollars worldwide. I won't rest until every projectionist showing the film is fired by Loews, AMC, Clearview and Sony immediately." Okay now you must be joking. LOL ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.125 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 02:30:28 PM the real question is: why do people call african americans "black" in the first place? I have never seen "black" person (or a "white" person, for that matter) --- only brown and dark brown people. Spider Man (in part 3) is black --- I mean he's really the color black, African Americans are not. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Mike Bobbitt EMAIL: EMBOBBITT@aol.com IP: 24.46.252.47 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 02:55:29 PM Dear Mr Stephney: I take your post as I think it's intended: with a bit of humor and an underlying bit of truth. As a Marvel comics fan, I wondered why they even tapped into the Secret Wars' story line for these Spiderman movies that are clearly set squarely in New York City, but here we are. I have wondered if the initial notion for the movie makers was as simple as (a) black costumes look cool, and (b) the Venom story line sold a lot of comics - now lets sell those tickets! Since "green" so often trumps considerations of black and white, right? For further reflection I think one should go back to the comics that provided the source material. Now, I've never been attacked by an alien symbiote (to my knowledge) so I don't know why one couldn't appear to be some shade of brown, etc. Why black in the first place? Maybe they tried to explain this in Secret Wars but I am going to take a pass on digging through my collection, and just finish writing this post (so excuse me if I err.) When the Secret Wars issues came out I assumed to some degree this was concocted as a clever way to put Spidey in a black costume. And strange though it is, I agree that it is easier to tell comic fans their hero is hosting an alien lifeform than that he just had a burst of inspiration to change up his costume. (Side note - I think they dreamed up the Scarlet Spider, and the Spiderman 2099 (and other 2099)comics for the same chief reason - just to sell us more stuff). Simple. So I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't the same motivation Sam Raimi et al had. Still, the question: why black? It may well be that the writers and artists who created the Spidey & symbiote storyline had bought into (consciously or not) certain black = evil, hpyer macho, violent, etc. stereotypes. I wonder if they would join this or another online discussion? Anyway, the movie makers could easily wriggle out of this conversation at this stage by saying they just inherited these interpretations (they'd never take it as a given I don't think) along with the characters and the initial situations from Marvel. Plus I can imagine the uproar from Marvel fans if they changed the color of the suite, regardless of their motivation for doing so. So where does that leave us? Perhaps with an argument that even while warranting our consideration, is too nuanced to serve as an effective example for many folks. A more direct (I don't know how to measure how useful) example was in Spike Lee's "Malcolm X": we see Malcolm read the dictionary definitions given to "white" and "black" - then watch what the real-life hero does with that and other information. I would like to point out another aspect of these movies that's been bugging me a bit: the regular unmasking of Spiderman. This is supposed to be a guy who wants a secret identity but (a) all the people on the train in the second movie have seen his face and now (b) everyone who has seen footage of him getting the key to city hall has seen part of his face. Basically everyone knows Spiderman is a young white guy. Reading the comics only WE knew that - and only because WE knew his secret identity. No one else knew that (with periodic, strategic exceptions). I thought that was one part of his appeal - he was a hero who could represent anybody and so did represent everybody. I find this casual approach to revealing his face to be a bit of a disappointment. It makes Spiderman seem less universal in his appeal as a hero, to me. Instead we have a white hero, white damsel, white friends, white petty thugs (thank heavens they didn't update Uncle Ben's killer by making him black) and white super villains. I suppose we should feel lucky Robbie Roberson still works at the Daily Bugle (in fairness, there are black cub scouts during the city hall ceremony too). Anyway this context (where it's a given the characters that matter are white) probably makes the introduction of the first major character who "happens to be black" being a creepy alien parasitic ooze rather than oh, say, a motivated black human being, seem more problematic than might otherwise be the case. On another tangent, is anyone else tired of waiting (about 20 years now I think?) for a Luke Care "Hero For Hire" movie to finally get made? The lengths we go to for our black superheroes... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Guess EMAIL: jthompson25@sbcglobal.net IP: 70.130.170.0 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 03:15:02 PM Victory is not defined in terms of blackness, but whiteness. Strength is not defined in terms of blackness, but whiteness. Protection is not defined in terms of blackness, but whiteness. And I would argue that all white people are white because they have defined themselves on what they consider to be the negatives of being black. This is always "acted out" in all of white man's films and his stories of manhood and strength. Blackness continues to be defined as something dark, dangerous, and ugly...and in this instance it seems to rise to the occassion. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: 9jah EMAIL: IP: 38.119.129.16 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 03:15:37 PM Black Prof: Please screen your commentators. Such nonsensical drivel only serves to undermine the importance and relevance of this forum. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: bolezn@hotmail.com IP: 162.6.224.224 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 05/07/2007 04:25:11 PM So was the red costume against Native AMericans? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael Fisher EMAIL: IP: 166.214.33.162 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 05/07/2007 04:39:31 PM Folks. Apparently many don't quite understand where Bill is coming from, because you have not worked in the image creation and sales industry. Bill has, and so have I. Now, ther is nary a poster here who has not been affected, one way or the other, by Public Enemy. Why is that? Public Enemy is an image. It was created with great deliberation. Bill helped create it. After studying the use of image, color, sound, and text, context in the entertainment industry they created Pubic Enemy. He also was the main person marketing the image. And made a contribution to a mental sea-change not onlu among black youth, but also among white and other non-black youth world-wide. So why would he not be able to take on Loews? Ya'll need to stop underestimating black people. White folks with power certainly don't. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 166.214.33.162 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 04:42:58 PM Folks. Apparently many don't quite understand where Bill is coming from, because you have not worked in the image creation and sales industry. Bill has, and so have I. Now, ther is nary a poster here who has not been affected, one way or the other, by Public Enemy. Why is that? Public Enemy is an image. It was created with great deliberation. Bill helped create it. After studying the use of image, color, sound, and text, context in the entertainment industry they created Public Enemy. He also was the main person marketing the image. And made a contribution to a mental sea-change not only among black youth, but also among white and other non-black youth world-wide. So why would he not be able to take on Loews? Ya'll need to stop underestimating black people. White folks with power certainly don't. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill Stephney EMAIL: IP: 141.150.139.18 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 05:36:33 PM Dragon Horse says: "Okay now you must be joking. LOL" I say: Indeed I am...but underneath the satire exists a definite commentary on the current politics of "collective insult reaction"... Anyway, what would you expect from a guy who's worked with Paul Mooney AND Chris Rock? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael Fisher EMAIL: IP: 166.214.33.162 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 05/07/2007 07:41:47 PM "Anyway, what would you expect from a guy who's worked with Paul Mooney AND Chris Rock?" DH. Now what the hell is your problem with Paul Mooney and Chris Rock? Your gonna have to include me in that indictment, cause my team (the afore mentioned Black Prince) was the one that produced Chris' first album. Heck I WISH I could've worked with Mooney. So go ahead, take your best shot. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael Fisher EMAIL: IP: 75.202.99.143 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 05/07/2007 10:02:44 PM "Anyway, what would you expect from a guy who's worked with Paul Mooney AND Chris Rock?" Ooops. That was YOU Bill. I guess I'm a bit tired today. Lack of sleep = lack of concentration. Sorry. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Lana EMAIL: lana@none.org IP: 162.84.180.225 URL: http://afromerica.com DATE: 05/08/2007 03:19:46 AM Here is an interesting take on this tale. http://afromerica.com/knowledge/entertainment/hollywood/spiderman3.php ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 162.6.234.178 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 08:41:43 AM "Cosby sees that culture can matter more than economics and racism, even for black people (i.e. descendants of African slaves). Dyson, typically of black academics, sees it as an urgent wisdom that black problems are all due to racism and the economy -- i.e. that they are "structural" as academics put it. Academics see Cosby's message as precisely what they have devoted their careers to teaching the public out of. However, the truth is that black America's problems are partly structural and partly cultural -- and furthermore, the cultural part is not something marginal that does not bear extended discussion. Academics will continue to be appalled at the public airing of that message -- but that's the way it has to be because, in my opinion, the academics on this question are wrong (my latest book explains why, for the record)." — John McWhorter, moderate-liberal commentator and former linguistics professor ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Debb S EMAIL: dstephney@gmail.com IP: 208.50.121.2 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 08:45:08 AM As I awakened from the "black out" I was in after receiving this "black eye" from sliding on "black ice", I realized that this "black-hearted" guy did not inform me of the "blackout". He was too busy trying to sell his "black market" DVD's. I guess that's why he's considered the "Black Sheep" of his family. I thought about "blackmailing" him but decided against it. Instead, I "blacklisted" him! Suffice it to say, I wasn't able to catch the evil Spidey, however, I am familiar with the character from the cartoon. Bill, knowing your sense of humor, which you usually combine with intellect, I got it! Excellent as always! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Debb S EMAIL: IP: 208.50.121.2 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 08:54:44 AM Bill, I wouldn't even bother to respond to someone who isn't confindent enough in himself to post his name. One who claims to be "anonymous" should remain just that. Consider him the "Invisible Spidey"! This is obviously turning into the "Haters" Board. That was straight from Black Voices as well. Moving right along..... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Debb S EMAIL: IP: 208.50.121.2 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 09:12:09 AM Ok, I see the name of each poster appears in an odd fashion. Oh Webmaster? The gray lines that separate each post includes what one would think is the poster's name. So Bill, I was actually going off on you! lol! Sorry Anon, but you really should post your name. Now that I'm in sync with the Board, I see you have good things to say. Anyway, Webmaster the page format should be changed :-) ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill Stephney EMAIL: IP: 138.89.169.90 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 10:06:57 AM Debb S said: "Bill, knowing your sense of humor, which you usually combine with intellect, I got it! Excellent as always!" I say: Thank you so much, Debb S...my fan club has ARRIVED!!!! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill Stephney EMAIL: IP: 138.89.169.90 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 10:20:55 AM Lana: Thanks for the link. The author essentially engages in a more sober presentation of my own "tongue-in-cheek" Spiderman racial rant. Let's hope "Venom" doesn't morph into the insult protest of the week. Next thing you know, there will be proposals "to foster dialogue between African-Americans and the Arachnid-American community"... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 11:10:13 PM Paris Hilton calls people n1ggers and f@ggots on tape: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=1997522690 also on cnn.com video news section. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 162.6.228.2 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 10:20:28 AM Cob does it again: http://cobb.typepad.com/cobb/2007/05/the_problem_wit.html OP-ED: The Problem With Institutional Racism The moderate-conservative Republican blogger writes: "One of the classic debates within black politics is the debate over the effect of institutional racism over the prospects for African American success. Something very interesting occured to me as I was reading Booker Rising's account of John McWhorter today. That is that the politics of anti-racism engaged by Leftists encourage the culture of dysfunction by blackfolks below the middle class baseline.....Part of the failure of progressive black politics is that they encourage people who can't even hack the middle class basics to believe they can beat the system via some Black Power. It never worked, it never will work. NOI is proof. Upon reaching the mainstream, that's when boldness and vision can work, but only based upon honest and open business dealings and relationships." He continues: "Academics like [Michael Eric] Dyson, coming as they do from Socialist backgrounds, believe they can identify a structural racism *that can be structurally defeated* through the defunding of 'racist institutions'. But America is not undergirded by racist institutions, America is chock full of public institutions and market institutions that are corrupted and abused by individual racists. Every racist act perpetrated by racist individuals empowered by an institution do not prove that institution racist. It only proves that America is full of racists that we are unable to keep out of the mainstream. It is the unwillingness of Leftists to acknowledge that fact that keeps many blacks distrustful of the mainstream public and market institutions into which they must integrate and assimilate in order to make the American middle class baseline. Instead, they irrationally hate and fear the very institutions upon which their improvement depends." And more: "I think instead we can say that the elimination of Jim Crow was the penultimate battle with the final battle played on social grounds - getting our entire culture past the interpersonal barriers of a Jim Crow society. The first priority of White Supremacy has always been to deny others any 'defiling' of the 'pure' white race. That's not a problem any longer. Opposition to Affirmative Action comes almost exclusively from the moral injunction against racial preferences. There can be no doubt that there are plenty of racists who can't stand the idea of race mixing on college campuses as the basis of their opposition, good luck trying to get them to say so in public. They cannot because the American mainstream doesn't tolerate such ideas. Not even when they're implied in disrespectful commentary. Virtually nobody stands on the principle of racial segregation. So where are the racist institutions? Maybe they're all in our heads." ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 11:58:28 AM Anonymous would you explain this for me given what you just wrote. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/us/08deseg.html?em&ex=1178856000&en=9e7df2c20ba7531a&ei=5070 I agree that Left has problems, but no Institutional Racism. The mere fact that many of us must push ourselves into the middle class, is where we meet the problems, Mr Cobb says is hyped. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 162.6.228.2 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 01:33:44 PM Nana: negros want to keep a black man on the plantation even if it not in their children's best interest. As you noticed the issue is black people are against a black "public figure" who whites support. Whites are concerned about the children in the schools, blacks are concerned with other issues... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 134.60.11.31 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 01:40:33 PM My little voice struggles to be heard. Who told you that you are black? I am galled that americans of african descent have accepted this categorization that started from racist anthropologists and pseudo-scientists in 18, 19 th and early 20century. The only way out to remove the power that this word and other words hold on us... Why can't spiderman have a black suit... for whatever reason humanity has associated the black colour with evil, I have not explanation for it. But we have to stop being so easily offended otherwise the whole world will have a very powerful hold on our psyche. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Majora EMAIL: IP: 207.200.116.196 URL: DATE: 05/21/2007 07:15:03 PM I sincerely hope the goal of this piece was to produce satire. For the record, I didn't view the movie, however when the world of art and social commentary collide, everything is open to interpretation, even the trivial politicizing of the color of a fictional superhero's costume. I understand your effort and sometimes when the frontal brain lobes aren't analytically stimulated, it creates its own stimulation in context to whatever forum is readily available. Hence, the dissection of the Black spidey costume and it's symbolic application. Just the other day I pondered whether the "Smurfs" (cartoon) promoted anti-semetic propaganda by animating the antagonist as a person who seemed to be of Jewish descent and giving him a docile, yet bumbling cat name Azrael very similar to the word Israel. But I digress.... Anyone can pontificate upon the parallelisms of the greater society at large against art (even bad art), and with little effort there will more than likely be multiple, clear cut similarities. However in this case, unless Black Spidey suffered continuous villication, and obstruction from resources and opportunities, along with constant haranguing from media outlets wanting to portray him as a low level individual whose primary function is to engage in random sex, wear gaudy attire, and objectify women, chicken and flashy jewelry, a la Flava Flav et. al, then put your spidey senses to rest and save them for a real struggle. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Anonymous EMAIL: IP: 207.200.116.196 URL: DATE: 05/21/2007 07:21:11 PM Next thing you know, there will be proposals "to foster dialogue between African-Americans and the Arachnid-American community ^^^^^^^^^Hilarious Lana! Keep it up Spidey Noir, you will find yourself suffering the same fate as Imus. ----- -------- AUTHOR: pbutler TITLE: Al Sharpton's Campaign Against Sexism...in Hip-Hop STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 DATE: 05/04/2007 08:16:45 PM ----- BODY:
I was interviewed tonight on Fox News Network The O’Reilly Factor regarding Rev. Al Sharpton’s campaign against hip-hop. The Reverend sponsored a march yesterday in support of banning three words - a focus I describe here and here as short sighted.
I think Sharpton has done lots of good for the African-American community but I don’t understand why he is so hung up on hip-hop. If Rev. Al is concerned about cultural institutions that don’t seem to exhibit a whole lot of respect for black women, maybe he could spend time on....I dunno, the black church? As Michael Eric Dyson has pointed out, pastors don’t call black women bitches and ho’s, but many sure treat them that way. Or maybe Sharpton could sponsor a march for the inclusion of black women among ...black political leadership? Maybe every time he or Jesse Jackson get a call to go on tv, they could decline and recommend in their place an African-American woman?
What the hysteria about snitching and hip-hop have in common is people blaming African-American men for much larger cultural problems. It reminds me of a poem by Ntozake Shange that begins "the suspect is always black and in his early 20's."
----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 15.251.169.70 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 09:33:42 PM Aside from Sharptons flaws, why not go after bad forms of hip hop? Where do our youth get influenced more, church or the music charts? We should be trying to instill the right values in our youth. I fear that gangsta and booty rap comprise too much of their thoughts, if they consume it as much as I did Public Enemy, Guru and X-Klan back in the day. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 69.156.100.76 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 09:41:41 PM Paul Butler, I consider you an enemy of black people. Sometimes African-American men do deserve the blame. Why don't you retire from public life? You are a disgrace to African American intellectuals. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: spike the cat EMAIL: IP: 81.208.36.89 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 10:27:16 PM I agree with Keto. Why not go after bad hip-hop? I would like more dialogue too, about why we American consumers seem to really gravitate toward violence and sexual degredation in mainstream outlets like music, videogames, etc. The top 40 genre seems to be disproportionately vulgar and agressive, and I am not understanding what the cultural payoff is for this type of expression. I mean at first I suppose there was the shock value of it all, a new way to say something old...But now? I don't get it. And frankly, with Akon running loose, somebody needs to speak up. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: IP: 68.217.9.240 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 10:51:49 PM Al Sharpton understand that corporate hip-hop is the poison needle into the veins of our Black youth. Corporate hip-hop sends negative messages to the Black youth as propaganda warfare - stop snitching, black women are sex objects, be a thug to have credibility - this is what corporate hip-hop mandated and promoting to our youth as a business. What I find wrong with Al Sharpton strategy is his failure to stop the White media from shaping his argument. Al Sharpton of all people should know the mass media will try to twist his point and he need to be more on point. For example, it was not about Don Imus - it was about the media executives. And in this fashion, it is not about some rappers, it is about the White executives that promote these negative stereotypes about our Black youth to a worldwide culture. Al Sharpton is failing to shape the message to target those who matter. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: curious EMAIL: IP: 72.76.3.157 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:38:32 PM Mr. Sharpton & Mr. Butler, two charlatans in a pod. p.s. remind is a transitive verb. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: elvina EMAIL: IP: 66.167.67.43 URL: http://imusshow.net DATE: 05/04/2007 11:39:09 PM Thank you, Professor! Saw you tonight with Michelle Malkin - hmmm - wasn't she staunchly anti-censorship when she recently covered the Danish cartoon controversy? Free speech forever - no matter how disgusting, sexist, racist, etc - for rappers, Imus, Al Sharpton, and everyone - see Imusshow.net - We don't need the media, corporate sponsors, or government telling us what we can say and hear - Let's deal with the pain, hurt, shame from slavery and racism. Strive for racial reconciliation, respect and synergy - Let's strive for civility not censorship - We don't want to live like they do in Cuba where people have to wait til it's dark out in the evening/night so they can sneak out and talk to their neighbors - Free speech - individual responsibility - no corporate conformity! Love one another - ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: elvina EMAIL: IP: 66.167.67.43 URL: http://www.imusshow.net DATE: 05/04/2007 11:42:01 PM Thank you, Professor! Saw you tonight with Michelle Malkin - hmmm - wasn't she staunchly anti-censorship when she recently covered the Danish cartoon controversy? Free speech forever - no matter how disgusting, sexist, racist, etc - for rappers, Imus, Al Sharpton, and everyone - see Imusshow.net - We don't need the media, corporate sponsors, or government telling us what we can say and hear - Let's deal with the pain, hurt, shame from slavery and racism. Strive for racial reconciliation, respect and synergy - Let's strive for civility not censorship - We don't want to live like they do in Cuba where people have to wait til it's dark out in the evening/night so they can sneak out and talk to their neighbors - Free speech - individual responsibility - no corporate conformity! Love one another - ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 12:33:34 AM black churches are directly responsible for a whole lot of good in the black community. indeed i'd say they're the only source of good in the black community today, what with the pernicious influence of black athletes, absentee fathers, hip hop gangsters and politicians (i.e., black men). that people like paul butler would attack black churches instead of hip hop, then, really goes to show you how perversely misguided "black intellectuals" are. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: spike the cat EMAIL: IP: 81.208.36.89 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 06:43:38 AM Elvina, Thanks for the link. Interesting, but I must say that as seductive as the beat and his voice are, yawn, I all hear is more b8tch this, ni88a that, blah blah blah. I googled this artist and you are right, he should have the right to saw what he wants how he wants (at least message is somewhat political) but, in the end, I alway follow the dollar signs. After all if his message is sooo important, he can give it away for free right? Just like he says, he doesn't need the corporate sponsor. Free speech doesn't gaurantee a paycheck! Likewise, Imus can upload podcasts on his own blog and talk about hoes all day long. No one is stopping him. On the cartoons: I don't recall Danish cartoons being published because corporations were following the buck. In fact, in the fallout, there were boycotts and loss of life and limb along with a great deal of very public debate. And even despite this, other country's papers published the toons as well in solidarity and others like the BBC chose not to. But back to music, people also have a right criticize it, not buy it, not support companies that produce it, not to be bombarded with it, to counteract it--all day and all night if we like, until blue in the face. I lean toward anti-censorship for the simple fact that it's better to know what the fools are saying and thinking than not. These people are seducing young minds and changing cultural behavior...Hell yeah, I want to know. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: IP: 68.217.9.240 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 09:17:46 AM elvina, glad to see you are real to real hip-hop artist like Immortal Technique and not like these other cornball claiming to be down with real hip hop but repeat cliche artist like Common, Mos Def, Talib whatever.. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dorkus EMAIL: IP: 66.91.246.41 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 10:33:27 AM Paul Butler, with the hideous filth you spread, I pray for your soul. Black Churches: Where secular mentoring and conventional social services programs for poor urban youth typically end, churches and religious outreach ministries often begin, especially in predominantly black communities. The black church has a unique and uniquely powerful youth and community outreach tradition. Indeed, the black church’s historic role in providing blacks with education, social services, and a safe gathering place prefigured its historic role in the civil rights movement. Ludacris: Hit it a hour and a half, watch the spectacular splash on the back and leave it drippin down the crack of her ass Call me Mr. Magillicuddy, chasin booty soft as silly puddy Killin for money, still a thug get bump; from some pokin --------- I don't know what Paul Butler is working for if it isn't pure evil. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 64.229.193.162 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 10:55:55 AM Butler doesn't care about black people. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dorkus EMAIL: IP: 66.91.246.41 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 11:06:20 AM Anon, It goes much, much further than that. Paul Butler's hideous philosophies are a devil's brew of all manner of evil. It hardly matters what color your skin is when you read what he writes as he tries to convince you that virtue is vice and vice is virtue. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Michael Fisher EMAIL: IP: 166.214.52.78 URL: http://assaultonblacksanity.blogspot.com DATE: 05/05/2007 11:20:55 AM Ya'll are tripping... An "enemy of the people?". Nonetheless. Sharpton criticising Hip Hop on Monday and hanging out with Puff and Russell in the Hamptons on Saturday and "Master Prophet" "Bishop" E. Bernard "Buy my anointed soap" Jordan on Sundays. This whole "ban" the three words thing is just to detract from the real issues. The BEHAVIOR advocated in gangsta rap. So now, a brotha can be killed in such a video but doesn't have to be worried beung called N***a in the process. A sister can be a prostitue without being called a Ho. Lovely. We sure are some dumb "Non-N***az" By the way, when is Steph finally going to do a post. I'd LOVE to see what he has to say about this stuff. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dorkus EMAIL: IP: 66.91.246.41 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 11:47:12 AM Mike, Any step in the right direction can be criticized in some way. When you attack good behavior and equate it with bad, you remove part of the motivation for good behavior. Yes, banning words is a small step, perhaps a trivial one. However, I ask you, how have you advanced the greater good by criticizing it? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Yahoo EMAIL: IP: 72.204.35.102 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 12:31:52 PM I agree with Michael Fisher this time. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: The Angry Independent EMAIL: Websteru2006@yahoo.com IP: 75.132.119.88 URL: http://mirroronamerica.blogspot.com/ DATE: 05/06/2007 03:19:29 AM #1. Paul Butler is another apologist and sympathizer for thug rap. These "intellectuals" are dangerous because they bring legitimacy to this poison with their credentials. Butler is in the same group with Black "intellecuals" like Todd Boyd and Michael Eric Dyson... they go around the country and make excuses for the degradation and mental genocide of our people. Paul Butler is exactly the kind of guest that Faux News wants on their network for this topic. I don't know how anyone (especially a Black educator) could make excuses for this sickness. I suggest giving an ear to opposing intellectuals, activists & commentators like Cornel West, Geoffrey Canada, Juan Williams and others... #2. Amazingly... I agree with Michael Fisher. Although I like Sharptons effort... it is yet to be seen if he is in it for the long haul or in it long enough for the TV cameras. When the TV cameras get tired of his campaign....will he still be there? And will he stop cavorting with these thugs? It's already clear that Simmons and Chavis are loyal to the thug rap community... That's why I suspect that this whole 3 word ban effort could be just a distraction that is designed to legitimize their poison. After the words are banned...then what? What about the damaging behavior that is promoted by thug rap? You can take away the words and thug rappers can (and will) STILL be damaging. I did a post on this about a week ago... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: J.K. EMAIL: IP: 67.70.66.163 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 03:58:44 AM The Angry Independent: I agree with a lot of that, except I'm not sure the people you mention would go to Butler's lengths to defend thug rap (not even Dyson, who I also dislike). In all honesty, Butler is an embarrassment. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: IP: 68.217.9.240 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 09:47:21 AM I'm confused at what people are saying. Those attacking Paul Butler appear to be the subtle bigots trying to instigate. Paul Bulter points are correct - Sharpton need to attack the establishment, not some 3-word ban which is a weak response to the momentum he generated about this issue. However I have faith in Sharpton that he will make the necessary correction. I also agree with Paul Bulter comment about the church in comparison to hip-hop. The Black church does more damage to Black women than pull leases on them and make them walk like dogs or call them Bs and Hs all the time. The Black church preaches doctrines that brainwash Black women to believe they are subserviant to man and they should be obediant (the surrendered wife syndrome). I'm always shocked at what I hear from Black women who attend these churches who act all holy but sleeping around with the men who attend the church - property syndrome. Most of you guys know what I'm talking about. Let's all be honest about the shifting standards. For a time being, I was seeing Final Call photos of Farrakhan smiling with these same punk corporate hip-hop psuedo-thug jigaboo rappers, so let's keep it real. I actually lost a lot of respect for the Minister hosting those hip-hop summits especially when he initially preached to snatch these fools off the stage in the early nineties. I mean, who the @#$# is more dangerous to the Black male than a punk rapper that sold out to promote the most negative vile image of us for bling? All of our leaders sold out in some way to negative corporate hip-hop. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dorkus EMAIL: IP: 66.91.246.41 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 10:18:57 AM Those attacking Paul Butler appear to be the subtle bigots Translation: There is nothing racist in what you said, but you disagree with me so you must be a racist. The Black church does more damage People who go to church are sinners. You seem to be suggesting that since they are imperfect, the message is wrong. How's ditching that chastity thing working for you? How about forgoing forbearance? What's that? You've got a 70% illegitimacy and 7x the murder rate? Hmm. Maybe you just haven't tried attacking black churches enough. I'll bet they're the problem after all. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: IP: 68.217.9.240 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 12:22:35 PM Dorkus, You've got a 70% illegitimacy and 7x the murder rate? and you say you are not one of those subtle bigots? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: elvina EMAIL: IP: 68.164.13.47 URL: http://imusshow.net DATE: 05/06/2007 01:41:56 PM Just noticed on drudgereport today this headline - Egypt's blog rebels silenced by jail A popular Egyptian blogger known for his withering criticisms of the government has given up writing after becoming the latest victim of a state crackdown on dissent. Without free speech, it's hard to FIGHT THE POWER - Corporate hip-hop, thug rap - IMHO it's all about *useful idiots* doing the corporate masters bidding - keeping people down and laughing all the way to the bank. Remedy - IMHO - forget about censoring rappers and Imus - but keep the pressure on corporate like Al is - Most of all, promote all the best people - I don't care what race - of course all intelligent, humorous, humane, clever, creative, innovative, accomplished, musical, artistic, intellectual, generous African American people we can - - on websites, TV, stories, movies, in your houses, in your churches - give credit where credit is due - honor all men and women - Focus and highlight the great and positive - That's the BEST way to foil the corporate masters - And it's great to make money - that's another way to foil em - and use your money to promote your values - Love ya - thanks for reading ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 05:24:54 PM OK, you fools made me download X-Clan--To the East! Sissies!! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 12:48:08 AM Ed, please don't be dumb. pointing out that blacks commit most of the murder and that black dads like to abandon their kids -- i.e., pointing out FACTS -- doesn't make a person a racist. facts, even hurtful ones, aren't racist, and neither is reciting them. again, please don't be stupid. there's simply no maturity on this website. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/07/2007 03:03:41 AM pointing out that we can see mendacious and cognitively impaired motives behind much of the commentary is not an ad hominem attack either, it's a FACT that puppets are in our midst..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: bolezn@hotmail.com IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 05/07/2007 06:40:34 AM The fight does need to be global in that people need to take on those who do the minstrel show and those who pay their bills. It is not hard to fight from two sides simultaneously. Sharpton maybe short sighted but he is trying to do something. What has Prof. Butler done besides apologize for step and fetch it kneegrows willing to sell their soul for a dead white prez? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 70.13.45.225 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 11:30:46 AM "What the hysteria about snitching and hip-hop have in common is people blaming African-American men for much larger cultural problems." I bet it would turn into shouting contest to even try to define the symptoms of these "cultural problems". And tougher still to define the problems. Short sightedness and emotionalism is all we've got. At least he is using the tools he has. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 165.125.144.16 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 01:17:02 PM The Black church does more damage to Black women than pull leases on them and make them walk like dogs or call them Bs and Hs all the time. The Black church preaches doctrines that brainwash Black women to believe they are subserviant to man and they should be obediant (the surrendered wife syndrome). I'm always shocked at what I hear from Black women who attend these churches who act all holy but sleeping around with the men who attend the church - property syndrome. Most of you guys know what I'm talking about.//Ed I guess I'm one of the few who doesn't know what you're talking about. In all my years of attending church, I was never taught that black women should be "subservient" to men. I was taught that men and women have certain roles/duties in life, and should perform them accordingly...as for Black women "acting all holy but sleeping around with the men who attend the church", well the same could be applied to the pastor, minister, reverend (usually married with children) who abuses his authority by sleeping with women within and outside of, his congregation...can you say Jesse Jackson? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Makheru EMAIL: IP: 68.222.159.139 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 01:19:07 PM [Elvina, Thanks for the link. Interesting, but I must say that as seductive as the beat and his voice are, yawn, I all hear is more b8tch this, ni88a that, blah blah blah]--Spike How can this person, Immortal Technique, consider himself to be revolutionary while using reactionary language to deliver his message, which he says is for the children. Our young men, in particular, already have enough confusion about what it means to be a man. The last thing they need is someone posing as a revolutionary, whose message can best be described as an example of reactionary masculinity. Revolutionaries don't emulate their oppressors. A colleague of mine compares constant exposure to gangsta rap lyrics and images to being poisoned with arsenic. Everyone has heard about mad spouses who give their partners daily traces of arsenic in their food. One day the partner keels over dead and no one knows why, except, of course the mad spouse. Sometimes after the second or third partner dies, someone finally connects the dots. This gangsta rap game has been running for awhile. Some people are finally starting to connect the dots. And before someone says you can't blame gangsta rap for all of our self-destructive behavior, I agree. You can't blame smoking for all cancer either, but it is a major factor which needs to be addressed to remediate that illness. The same goes for gangsta rap. Makheru ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Rhonda EMAIL: IP: 165.125.144.16 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 01:22:22 PM Sorry...That's me above, NOT Anonymous. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 03:16:46 PM Rhonda do you care to elaborate about these certain gender roles/ duties? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: elvina EMAIL: IP: 69.3.101.194 URL: http://imusshow.net DATE: 05/07/2007 06:18:41 PM Makheru - I don't think Immortal Technique was saying his lyrics are *for the children.* I think he was saying that corporations (media govt establishment) pretend they care about *the children* to justify this or that repressive regulation i.e. social directive, while they make massive dollars promoting gangsta and and other *product* that's bad for children. I think people should control the message, not media, big business or big government - I agree with your other points and changed the video on imusshow.net to an x-clan video - thanks Keto - I think it's a more positive message - but I'm white so maybe I don't know s*** about black culture - ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: IP: 68.217.9.240 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 07:44:41 PM //I was taught that men and women have certain roles/duties in life, and should perform them accordingly// Do tell, I'm very interested in hearing this... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Akhenaton06 EMAIL: IP: 162.6.225.66 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 09:19:57 PM I didn't make that particular post about distinctive gender roles, but I agree with that particular poster. For one, maybe we could start with women being the primary caregivers for their children. Biology alone is sufficient to demonstrate that. Take note of the word "primary." ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Oakland EMAIL: chambersdean@hotmail.com IP: 76.202.62.160 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 02:23:57 AM Al Sharpton is one of the few people left who are not afraid to say what he thinks. He is not perfect but he scares white people and they really do not like him for the most part! He is becoming the litmus test for whether or not you are a nice Black person or one who wants to blame white people for everything and keep black people in the "I am just a poor victim" mentality. Many people white and black (conservatives) are oh so quick to tell us we are acting like victims every time we assert our rights! It is psychological warfare and Al is the whipping boy that always reminds them that we ain't giving in; Call us whining victims and Al can call you on your stuff because he is still an outside agitator that is not paying favors to anyone but himself. Furthermore he comes with compassion but he does not give black people a pass anymore than some of the conservatives, white or black, so...really he is a voice we need to listen to. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Oakland EMAIL: chambersdean@hotmail.com IP: 76.202.62.160 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 02:23:57 AM Al Sharpton is one of the few people left who are not afraid to say what he thinks. He is not perfect but he scares white people and they really do not like him for the most part! He is becoming the litmus test for whether or not you are a nice Black person or one who wants to blame white people for everything and keep black people in the "I am just a poor victim" mentality. Many people white and black (conservatives) are oh so quick to tell us we are acting like victims every time we assert our rights! It is psychological warfare and Al is the whipping boy that always reminds them that we ain't giving in; Call us whining victims and Al can call you on your stuff because he is still an outside agitator that is not paying favors to anyone but himself. Furthermore he comes with compassion but he does not give black people a pass anymore than some of the conservatives, white or black, so...really he is a voice we need to listen to. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Oakland EMAIL: chambersdean@hotmail.com IP: 76.202.62.160 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 02:24:44 AM Al Sharpton is one of the few people left who are not afraid to say what he thinks. He is not perfect but he scares white people and they really do not like him for the most part! That is already one reason to take a good look at him! He is becoming the litmus test for whether or not you are a nice Black person or one who wants to blame white people for everything and keep black people in the "I am just a poor victim" mentality. Many people white and black (conservatives) are oh so quick to tell us we are acting like victims every time we assert our rights! It is psychological warfare and Al is the whipping boy that always reminds them that we ain't giving in; Call us whining victims and Al can call you on your stuff because he is still an outside agitator that is not paying favors to anyone but himself. Furthermore he comes with compassion but he does not give black people a pass anymore than some of the conservatives, white or black, so...really he is a voice we need to listen to. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Oakland EMAIL: chambersdean@hotmail.com IP: 76.202.62.160 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 02:25:30 AM Al Sharpton is one of the few people left who are not afraid to say what he thinks. He is not perfect but he scares white people and they really do not like him for the most part! That is already one reason to take a good look at him! He is becoming the litmus test for whether or not you are a nice Black person or one who wants to blame white people for everything and keep black people in the "I am just a poor victim" mentality. Many people white and black (conservatives) are oh so quick to tell us we are acting like victims every time we assert our rights! It is psychological warfare and Al is the whipping boy that always reminds them that we ain't giving in; Call us whining victims and Al can call you on your stuff because he is still an outside agitator that is not paying favors to anyone but himself. Furthermore he comes with compassion but he does not give black people a pass anymore than some of the conservatives, white or black, so...really he is a voice we need to listen to. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Oakland EMAIL: chambersdean@hotmail.com IP: 76.202.62.160 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 02:26:12 AM Al Sharpton is one of the few people left who are not afraid to say what he thinks. He is not perfect but he scares white people and they really do not like him for the most part! That is already one reason to take a good look at him! He is becoming the litmus test for whether or not you are a nice Black person or one who wants to blame white people for everything and keep black people in the "I am just a poor victim" mentality. Many people white and black (conservatives) are oh so quick to tell us we are acting like victims every time we assert our rights! It is psychological warfare and Al is the whipping boy that always reminds them that we ain't giving in; Call us whining victims and Al can call you on your stuff because he is still an outside agitator that is not paying favors to anyone but himself. Furthermore he comes with compassion but he does not give black people a pass anymore than some of the conservatives, white or black, so...really he is a voice we need to listen to. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 206.37.240.34 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 01:16:24 PM it's fashionable to beat up on hip hop now days because it doesn't fight back, so everyone is doing it. but the minute racism or reparations is mentioned, coons like stanley "crotch" scatter like cockroaches in a sink full of dirty dishes when the lights are turned on. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Rhonda EMAIL: IP: 165.125.144.16 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 01:53:50 PM I didn't make that particular post about distinctive gender roles, but I agree with that particular poster. For one, maybe we could start with women being the primary caregivers for their children. Biology alone is sufficient to demonstrate that. Take note of the word "primary." Posted by: Akhenaton06 Without giving a religious sermon, I was taught that a woman should prioritize as follows: A husband/wife put God first in their lives... Then each other... Then the children. In laymen's terms, if a husband and wife lavish love, respect, honor, and yes, sexual attention on each other, together, they can be loving and effective parents. As for roles, men need to understand the importance of their role as husband, father, provider; it is a leadership role, and you simply cannot have a household run by two leaders (I know some sistas here will go ballistic over that statment! LOL!!) But let's understand something...a good man, an effective leader, will certainly welcome, consider, and even implement ideas his wife offers; but ultimately, he is responsible for not only making the FINAL decision, but the RIGHT decisions. Although women work (and sometimes make more money than their spouses), they should still understand THEIR role as wife and mother. She should understand that, whatever job/career/position she holds OUTSIDE the home, that is NOT her primary role; her primary role is to be nuturer and caretaker of her family; to ensure that her home is in order, that it is clean, to cook proper/healthy meals for her husband and child/children. If her job outside the home interferes with her role inside the home, she and hubby need to come to an agreement as to how that problem will be solved...will she cut work parttime, while he picks up extra work, will he work two jobs while she stays home, etc. I think we tend to get our priorities twisted, due to economic issues (yes often two paychecks are needed to run a home), but if kids are eating microwaveable food/fast foods every other night, if a house is in physical and emotional chaos, children are not being given the attention they need (and they need alot of attention), and mom is exhausted and frustrated much of the time, then there is a problem. Like it or not, when it comes to children, women are the PRIMARY caregivers...that doesn't mean in any way that a FATHER is not valid or important in a child's life...he is most important. But it is what it is. Now does that mean that dad can't take on a few domestic chores? Of course not. Should he spend quality time with his children? Sure. But his PRIMARY role is still that of PROVIDER, whether his title is CEO or custodial worker. A woman's PRIMARY role is that of caregiver, nuturer, regardless of how big her office is, or how many degrees are posted on her office wall. We squabble about the problems of the black community...well, this is, in my opinion, one of the BIGGEST problems we face; lack of traditional, intact, two parent households. We talk about poverty being one of the reasons for our problems...yet a few generations ago, married black couples who were poor had children, and in many cases, raised them well...hell, put them through college. Today, there is still poverty...but there is also something missing...something that far too many black women have negated the importance of fathers, by continuing to have children out of wedlock. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nipsey Washington EMAIL: me@jiggaboojones.com IP: 152.132.10.196 URL: http://www.niggajigga.com DATE: 05/08/2007 09:24:29 PM Those three words now fly around on my radio show like flys 'round a dumpster. I refuse to let a hustler like "Honest Al" RE-shape America in to a Communist Oppresionist place where people have to tip toe when they speak. Middle fingers up to people down with that... LANSD ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aaron EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 08:23:53 AM //but ultimately, he (men) is responsible for not only making the FINAL decision, but the RIGHT decisions.// //Today, there is still poverty...but there is also something missing...something that far too many black women have negated the importance of fathers, by continuing to have children out of wedlock.// Posted by: Rhonda Rhonda is definitely OUT of her mind. One minute she's talking about men being "leaders" and the next minute she is blaming the ills on black women- "something that far too many black women have negated the importance of fathers, by continuing to have children out of wedlock". Isn't this suppose to read as something something that far too many black men have negated the importance of fathers, by continuing to have children out of wedlock- after all men are the leaders according to you? Seriously what are you smoking your posts are almost always inconsistent? And Rhonda my marriage is working well and me and my wife are of equal footing. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aaron EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 08:30:29 AM Agree with Ed -The Black church does more damage to Black women than pull leases on them and make them walk like dogs or call them Bs and Hs all the time. The Black church preaches doctrines that brainwash Black women to believe they are subserviant to man and they should be obediant (the surrendered wife syndrome). Rhonda is living proof of this. Let's face it some women are excellent caregivers, submissive, etc. while some women are career orientated, ambitious, etc. It's up to people to find their true match. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: CABRIHR EMAIL: IP: 70.94.8.183 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 12:52:15 PM And frankly, with Akon running loose, somebody needs to speak up. RE: IM NOT DEFENDING AKON BUT WHAT HE DID IS A TRINIDAD ISSUE AND HOW WAS HE TO KNOW THE GIRL WAS 15? IN TRINIDAD THE CULTURAL AGE OF AN ADULT IS EARLIER OF THAT FROM AMERICAS STANDARD BUT I GURANTEE YOU THAT IF THE GIRL AKON DID DACNE WITH WAS THAT COUNTRY LEGAL AGE YOU STILL SAY WHAT YOU SAID. about why we American consumers seem to really gravitate toward violence and sexual degredation in mainstream outlets like music, videogames, etc. The top 40 genre seems to be disproportionately vulgar and agressive, and I am not understanding what the cultural payoff is for this type of expression. I RE: RARELY IF EVER I SEE PEOPLE AFTER PLAYING VIDEO GAMES GO OUT AND BEAT PEOPLE UP OR SHOOT RANDOM PEOPLE, VIDEO GAMES HAVE NO INFLUNCE LIKE HIP HOP DOES On the cartoons: I don't recall Danish cartoons being published because corporations were following the buck. In fact, in the fallout, there were boycotts and loss of life and limb along with a great deal of very public debate. And even despite this, other country's papers published the toons as well in solidarity and others like the BBC chose not to. RE: DID YOU KNOW THAT THESE SAME PPL WHO PROTESTED TO THIS CARTOON CAME OUT WITH AN IMAGE OF JESUS AND ALSO DID ONE ON A BLACK WOMAN? BUT ANY ONE WHO DRAWS SOMETHING REMOTELY TO THEM THEY CRY, AND CHANT KILL KILL KILL.... Corporate hip-hop sends negative messages to the Black youth as propaganda warfare - stop snitching, black women are sex objects, be a thug to have credibility - this is what corporate hip-hop mandated and promoting to our youth as a business. RE: ONE THING FIND FUNNY ABOUT THIS IS THAT WHITE CONSERVATIVE CORRESPONDENTS/REPRESENTATIVES NEVER EVER BLAME THERE RIGHT WINGED MONEY MAKING CEO'S OF THE MUSIC INDUSTRY WHO PROMOTE THAT SHIT! We don't need the media, corporate sponsors, or government telling us what we can say and hear - RE: THE MEDIA ALREADY DOES THAT IM PRETTY SURE YOU LISTEN TO TOP 40 RADIO OR CLEAR CHANNEL ,SAME THING PLAYED EVERY HOUR! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Rhonda EMAIL: IP: 165.125.144.16 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 01:37:46 PM Seriously what are you smoking your posts are almost always inconsistent? And Rhonda my marriage is working well and me and my wife are of equal footing. Posted by: Aaron | May 9, 20 What inconsistencies?? I've ALWAYS said that I believe in traditional roles of men and women within a marriage, that there cannot be two leaders within a household. I've ALWAYS said...from a WOMAN'S perspective, that some women continue to negate the importance of fatherhood in conjunction with marriage, by having babies out of wedlock. I LIVE by these beliefs. I am perfectly happy to let my husband "wear the pants" in our family, while I do my thing as wife and mother. And as much as I love my job, if it interfered with my family in a negative way, both my husband agree that I would give it up. And I would be happy to do it, for my family, because their happiness and well being take priority over my job...my family is my PRIMARY responsibility. And while I'm glad your marriage is working well, I never called your marriage into question, so why the need to defend it? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aaron EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 03:13:31 PM Rhonda here is where you are inconsistent One minute you are talking about men being "leaders" and the next minute you are blaming the ills on black women- "something that far too many black women have negated the importance of fathers, by continuing to have children out of wedlock". Isn't this suppose to read as something something that far too many black men have negated the importance of fathers, by continuing to have children out of wedlock- since after all men are the leaders according to you? (please don't go into this long post about women being primarily responsible for preventing pregnacy, because as someone else has proven you wrong, while the primarily burden falls upon women, the responsiblity lies on both partners.) By the way, there is no need to capitalize your words... I can read well. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aaron EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 03:24:54 PM And while I'm glad your marriage is working well, I never called your marriage into question, so why the need to defend it? Why do you feel the need to always bring up your marriage and bash on black women for acting like “men”. As you know well, some relationship work out well with men taking charge, others with women taking charge, and many work out well with both partners taking lead? Who cares what you THINK is the ideal black family! So why do you always go to great length explaining (abiet in illogical manners) why the traditional Christian family - man is the head, women is the follower- is the best? If this family model worked out for you, then good for you. However stop acting like this is the "ideal" family model and that the problems afflicting black families are due to the fact that women do not know their "proper" place. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 03:27:31 PM Ooops, meant to write. And while I'm glad your marriage is working well, I never called your marriage into question, so why the need to defend it? Rhonda Why do you feel the need to always bring up your marriage and bash on black women for acting like “men”. As you know well, some relationship work out well with men taking charge, others with women taking charge, and many work out well with both partners taking lead ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 71.109.49.77 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 10:55:16 PM Rhonda, You may want to ignore the clown known as Aron. He likes to pretend he is either a Black man with a white supremist agenda, or a manipulative white who wants to guide Black people out of ignorance. The family leadership model you prescribe for Black people to develop and empower Black communities is something an ignorant manipulative white person like Aron can not grasp mentally. The dynamics of Black existence in America and white priviledge in America puts Black people in a different frame of mind and on a different path to empowerment. Thus requiring different stategies and disciplines. If you read Aron's drivel it becomes clear that he wants Black people to be just as stupid as he is - just sit around and let whites do all the thinking, while America's "free market economy" cures all of society's racism, discrimination, and abuses. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BBTPM EMAIL: j.smith@yahoo.com IP: 202.33.24.132 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 12:34:48 AM The Black community does not have to wait for Al Sharpton, Russell Simmons, or anyone else to extinguish this vile, disrespectful, self-loathsome form of entertainment. Black people only need to do four things to end this: a. Stop buying their “music” b. Stop attending their concerts c. Stop patronizing their sponsors d. Take control and stop being so dependent on others to determine their destiny. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aaron EMAIL: IP: 70.108.227.249 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 06:06:24 AM Cracka Smasha You have me confused for the other Aaron (I do not believe the capitalist structure is without its flaws). No I am not a white supremacist so get your facts straight. Rhonda is prescribing a family model that worked best for her... she does not need to speak on behalf of all black folks. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nipesy Washington aka Jiggaboo Jones EMAIL: me@jiggaboojones.com IP: 67.126.131.219 URL: http://www.niggajigga.com DATE: 05/10/2007 10:09:52 AM Al Sharpton is the man who is known for speaking his mind???? ..... W T F ? ..... Ok, so I have been a street guy for maybe too long BUT I will tell you this AL "Shar-let-on" has done NOTHING for street guys trying to GO LEGIT.... as many know the clashes I have had with this GIMP I will be glad when I see two dates under his picture on the news.. meaning the flow of his BS is Over... LANSD..... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 10:54:10 AM My apologies to the Aaron who is not the clown. Unfortunately, the clown Aaron is in an attempt to cause confusion among Black people and is using your name. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Rhonda EMAIL: IP: 165.125.144.16 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 01:48:22 PM Who cares what you THINK is the ideal black family!//Aaron I apologize for hijacking this thread, but I need to check Aaron on a couple of issues. First Aaron, I don't know if you're African American or white, nor do I particularly care. I don't "think" a two parent house hold is an ideal environment in which to raise children, I know it is. And while I don't believe that 70% out of wedlock birthrate Dragon Horse keeps harping on, I do know that children who have both parents in the home tend to do better in school, and are less likely to get into trouble, than those whose fathers are not in their lives. A boy needs a father...a fulltime father...to guide him, to teach him how to be a man -- something a woman cannot do, regardless of how much she loves her son. Girls who have their fathers in the home tend to hold off on sexual activity too early, the teen pregnancy rate is less, and their sense of self worth tends to be stronger. The standard of living in a two parent household is better, for obvious reasons. Isn't this suppose to read as something something that far too many black men have negated the importance of fathers, by continuing to have children out of wedlock- since after all men are the leaders according to you?//Aaron No...it reads exactly as it should. First, not EVERY black man possesses the integrity and sense of honor needed to lead; not every man desires the role of leader as respects a family situation. Having said that, it is important that black women recognize those men who are not fit to lead, and avoid these men; however, if they must have sex with them, at least avoid becoming pregnant by them. Perhaps this might be the most important reason why women must be more responsible: it is easy to drag a man into court. It is easy for a judge to order him to pay child support. It's easy for the gov't to garnish his wages. But the MOST important thing a child needs, the gov't cannot garnish from that man...that is the love and nuturing a child needs from his father. If you are a black man, then you more than anyone should know the importance of intact black families. Mothers raising children in homes without husband/fathers is NOT an ideal situation in which to raise a child, and I cannot understand why any black woman would so selfish as to do it. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: aaron EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 02:36:48 PM Okay Sorry that I even bothered with you. This is the same garbage you spew all the time ... blaming black women for all the problems (making me believe that you have issues with yourself and other black women). Just for one minute listen to the nonsense you talk. First you call black men leaders, then by recoginizing not all men are leaders, you call upon black women to identify these so called black men who are not leaders. Well if if it up to women to choose out these "leaders" then the it is only evident that women are leaders themeslves- hence this is my original point that leadership roles is ideal when shared. So then we are left with your nonsense drivel, men are leaders, but when problems occur (such as sinlge family house) it is the fault of black women because black women do not properly choose out black male leaders. What nonsense is this? If one belives that men are leaders, then fault them (men) for not being able to keep their house in check. It only makes logical since. Then to top off your nonsense this is what you state //Perhaps this might be the most important reason why women must be more responsible// ROTFLMBAO. If women must be more responsible, then likewise they should be the "leaders". LOL.. But most importantly, here is where you do not make ANY sense- if men are leaders and women must bow to their authority then we cannot fault the problems of the black community on women, can we? And last, why do you feel the need to always bring up your marriage and bash on black women for acting like “men” or being the root cause of all the problems in black neighborhoods. As you know well, some relationship work out well with men taking charge, others with women taking charge, and many work out well with both partners taking lead. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: aaron EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 02:47:37 PM rhonda There's no need to reply if you do not care to make rational sense. If you believe all of this because your pastor/ bible, etc. says so, then that's on you. The site is called blackprof so most the people here expect to read rational posts (logical/ backed by facts), not what Rhonda irrationality believes. While your marriage is working well that's good for you... yet don't irrationally argue that this is the "ideal" marriage/ family when there are many happy family who do not adhere to your beliefs. Furhtemore do not even attempt to place sole/ majority of blame on women when someone here clearly explained to you the difference between "burden" and "responsiblity". ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Rhonda EMAIL: IP: 165.125.144.16 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 06:28:16 PM I'll respond like this: Before I married, I had my share of fun as respects men. Didn't matter if they were husband/father/leadership material not. My goal was to have a good time, not settle down. I protected myself against unwanted pregnancy, by using birth control, and insisting my partner used a condom. When I felt the desire to settle down, I sought out men who would be good husband/father/provider and yes, leader material. I met one, fell in love, married him, and had a child. I had a child with my husband...not a fuck buddy. See the difference? End of discussion. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 69.15.230.105 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 10:17:03 PM I wonder if Sharpton will address a national radio program's call to rape the highest-ranking black woman in America? http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=450 Since she's a Republican, probably not. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aaron EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/11/2007 08:18:29 AM Rhonda I never asked you to explain the difference between fuck buddies and a husband so there's no need to spew nonsense irrevelant garbage. What worked out good for you is simply ONLY good for you. I, and many others, could care less about your personal experiences. Don't sit on your high horse telling others (incorrectly) what the "ideal" black family is. Understand? (I think you do wish is why you can't explain your inconsistencies) End of discussion. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 4.79.229.69 URL: DATE: 05/11/2007 08:21:52 AM OOps I meant Understand? (I think you do which is why you can't explain your inconsistencies) ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Oregon EMAIL: IP: 70.162.116.15 URL: DATE: 05/12/2007 10:42:53 AM Why doesn't nappy headed Sharpton go after opie & anthony for their filth on the radio? Oh, that's it--he hates Condi and would appear two faced to defend her. AS is a spineless turd that needs to be flushed!! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nipsey Washington EMAIL: me@jiggaboojones.com IP: 152.132.10.197 URL: http://www.niggajigga.com DATE: 05/12/2007 05:54:00 PM Al Shar-let-on is a glory hunting phony! You try to call into his show and ONLY those that agree with him get on. He does not like to debate the facts as seen on Hannity & Combs.... Pull the plug and throw the curtain back on this fool. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: spike the cat EMAIL: IP: 81.208.36.89 URL: DATE: 05/13/2007 07:23:25 AM Aaron says:"Just for one minute listen to the nonsense you talk. First you call black men leaders, then by recoginizing not all men are leaders, you call upon black women to identify these so called black men who are not leaders. Well if its up to women to choose out these "leaders" then the it is only evident that women are leaders themeslves- hence this is my original point that leadership roles is ideal when shared." Brilliant. Thank you. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: RavenRavings EMAIL: IP: 66.41.74.212 URL: DATE: 05/14/2007 02:17:28 AM What is objectionable about this post is the professor's call for a different emphasis in SHARPTON'S leadership. If the black church needs correcting, then why doesn't Butler do it himself. It doesn't condemn Sharpton to emphasize Hip Hop's problems--and not the church (assuming, for purposes of argument, that the church has the failings Butler identifies.) Sharpton is an older gentleman. He can't do everything. He can just choose one thing to do--the thing that is important to him--or that he has already emphasized--and has sufficient independence from to critique. Apparently Butler has no connection to the black church, Butler then should take the church on. Will Butler take on the church for the sins he claims the Church commits? No, he won't. He'll write a blog--a short article--but he will not take the time out of his schedule to mount a sustain attack. Why? Because he is faking a commitment. It would be inconvenient to his lifestyle. Not easy. And this is why I find it laughable when this supposed second or third generation of blacks "leaders" criticize Sharpton or a Jesse--as Butler does. These younger folks--though they criticize--are just not ready for primetime. They expect the reigns f leadership to be handed over to them--on the way to the glf tee--to buddy it up with their colleages. Noo. They're very disrespectful--criticizing the older leaders for just talk--when they are not even prepared to just talk on a sustained basis--if there is even the hint of personal cost. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: katrina in L.A. EMAIL: IP: 130.166.31.87 URL: DATE: 05/15/2007 12:59:30 AM Yeah, but nobody should overlook that there is also a reoccurring verdict when 'she' is black and in her 20s or teens. Without fail, every time I have been treated disrespectfully based on my genderandrace (ran together on purpose) it has been by some fool using hip-hop imitations as a guise for his or her own racist and sexist views, pretending that he or she could "identify" with those black guys rapping. Let Al Sharpton go get those guys. For the most part, church has been the only place where any male I've ever known was not primarily inclined to treat me disrespectfully just because I am not male. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: towninflorida EMAIL: IP: 66.0.144.194 URL: DATE: 05/17/2007 04:23:01 PM If the black church is so great for the black community, why has it kept quiet and in denial about HIV and AID's, that is actively wiping out the black community? What people fail to realise is that the Rev.Sharpton's and Jesse Jackson's and the black church in general, is out of touch with the people it most needs to reach out to. The black church is antiquated and that is why so many of our black youth cannot relate to it and instead they gravitate towards hip-hop and other negative influences as their role models. If Sharpton really want's to make a difference, he should start with the black church, which has historically brought black people together in the past. Times have changed and the church needs to as well. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Rhonda EMAIL: IP: 165.125.144.16 URL: DATE: 05/18/2007 01:39:50 PM Actually, some black churches are dealing with the issue of HIV/AIDS as respect prevention of this disease; however, they are doing so from a religious perspective. They are promoting abstinence amongst single people, particularly young adults/teens, and faithfulness/fidelity within a marriage. The black church is reluctant to discuss condom use because, from it's viewpoint, it promotes premarital and extramarital sex...something the church/christian religion frowns upon. So while the black church does hold seminars about HIV/AIDS treatment and prevention, don't expect those cute how-to-put-on-a-condom-properly demonstrations using a banana or a model of a penis. Not happening. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Abel EMAIL: asalag@yahoo.com IP: 66.199.250.218 URL: http://djakon.net/smoking/smoking.html DATE: 05/25/2007 02:56:28 PM a bad job ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Zion EMAIL: chmoore@siue.edu IP: 4.245.17.210 URL: DATE: 06/04/2007 09:54:22 AM I find it amazing how the black churh has become the target of so much criticism yet it was the basis for our original Civil Rights Movement. Now, admittedly, there are some teachings that have been misinterpreted in order to suit a male-dominated culture, but that is with any church (black, white, whatever). Yes, hip-hop needs to be called on the carpet period. How did a vehicle for civil rights and justice turn into a commercialized vehicle glamourizing sex, violence, and unspeakable life styles? Simple. Like everything that black America latches on to, we allow the dominating white culture to treat us like whores. Just simply show us the money, and we will tap-dance for that almighty dollar. Hip-Hop has become another black face, just in a different form. While I am not the biggest fan of Sharpton or Jackson, did the white media have a valid argument when they called us out on our own disrespect towards one another. Also, we need to redefine hip-hop and allow the real hip-hop to dominate the air waves, not this commercialized pop music. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: zvljiubg ijpknfsl EMAIL: crsphtulf@mail.com IP: 59.106.23.152 URL: http://www.hsglwdv.ycwaur.com DATE: 08/11/2007 09:39:47 AM zwknqb bgyufnctj msrnelf myhkuirez xtny rkbdao izgbnweu ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: kcpz wfzs EMAIL: fjdvs@mail.com IP: 218.246.96.46 URL: http://www.google.com DATE: 08/11/2007 09:40:44 AM hgtkx kuzog mkqp ilvzyt ldtvki tkysh rlovpksw http://www.twrybfdk.wjkar.com ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: porno EMAIL: puwx@hotmail.com IP: 194.228.61.99 URL: http://homeloanswithbadcredit.blogspot.com/ DATE: 08/19/2007 06:59:23 PM Cool site. Thanks. http://homeloanswithbadcredit.blogspot.com/ porno ----- -------- AUTHOR: sifill TITLE: Uncle Ben's and Racial Stereotypes in Advertising STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 PRIMARY CATEGORY: race CATEGORY: race DATE: 05/04/2007 01:27:38 AM ----- BODY:
I don’t care much about the latest controversy involving the $20 million ad campaign launched by Mars Co., the owners of the Uncle Ben’s Rice brand, in which “Uncle Ben” is now “Chairman Ben” (still no last name). Who cares? I’ve never purchased either Uncle Ben’s rice or Aunt Jemima syrup. But I really enjoyed this slide show about the historical use of racist stereotypes in advertising. For a visit to Uncle Ben’s new “office,” go to www.unclebens.com
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AUTHOR: Dorkus
EMAIL:
IP: 72.255.51.72
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DATE: 05/04/2007 05:20:52 AM
Well that wasn't a total waste of time. Nope! Very worthwhile. Thanks for the post. Great job. Uncle Ben's is racist. Hey, I just realized that some rice is white! How about a follow up post about that? Darn that old rice anyhow!
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AUTHOR:
EMAIL:
IP: 134.60.11.31
URL:
DATE: 05/04/2007 05:36:44 AM
These stereotypes are nothing compared to what I see in Europe, I feel pretty powerless since they are really offensive.
As I said before there is even a chocolate type known as negerkuss... i,e "niggerkiss".
There has to be a way to stop this especially in Europe where there are no advocacy groups fighting against such things
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Dorkus
EMAIL:
IP: 72.255.51.72
URL:
DATE: 05/04/2007 05:39:52 AM
By the way, thanks for the link to Uncle Ben's. What a contrast with blackprof.com!
One site is cleverly done, beautiful to look at and has a strong dose of self-deprecating humor that helps makes its points with style and grace. The other is a bunch of professors screaming "Racism!" at every leaf that blows in front of their faces.
I'll be picking up a bunch of tips for my own websites from Uncle Ben's for a long time to come. The animated Day Planner in his office was great!
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AUTHOR: dilettante
EMAIL:
IP: 81.129.137.64
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DATE: 05/04/2007 07:10:55 AM
I like the old uncle Ben better. The slide show was informative, Like it or not this is our [American- black and white] history. I'm glad the more outrageous images are gone- I don't have a problem with the current Aunt Jemima image, or the the prior uncle Ben. The problem I have with the *makeover* is that it gives an image to the white fantasy of what affirmative action is/was all about. One day a black person is a cook- the next he's a CEO just like that. I do not/ would not buy any of the products- but I don't begrudge the companies trying to capitalize on their product'slong history. Line from the Godfather- "after all- we are not communist."
The comments on the blog the other day about O'Bama &'acting white'-- missed the fact that white people are just as complicit and actually hold more power in perpetuating this idea. I know many of us have had the 'interview' by some white person who feels they have a right to ask invasive questions about how/why we have a certain job, education, lifestyle etc. Or my personal favorite- What do your parents do?? -from people I have just met, wtf? This happens when they can't say flat out-- YOU'RE BLACK, WHY ARE YOU DOING X?- implicit in this is their view that X is for WHITE PEOPLE I'm not sure how conscious even they are of having a view of what is appropriate for 'whites only'. Can you imagine a marketing campaign to "see "the inside of the office of the actual CEO of Mars/Master food?- (who I'm sure has a last name)? No, Im sure you can't. The manufacturing process, the cocoa plants where the chocolate comes from, or some fiction about how well they treat their suppliers- that might be marketed. But there is no novelty in seeing a white mans office- that's "normal".
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Al
EMAIL: abrophy@law.ua.edu
IP: 76.27.137.41
URL:
DATE: 05/04/2007 09:30:35 AM
Sherrilyn--thanks for this, especially the Slate slideshow.
Uncle Ben's website is amazing. Did anyone else look at the history section? I actually enjoyed learning about rice--some pretty interesting stuff there. But, more importantly, it's a classic in the selective memory genre. Lots of stuff left out. Fascinating how they're dealing their history....
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: cnulan
EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com
IP: 65.69.77.51
URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net
DATE: 05/04/2007 09:57:21 AM
But, more importantly, it's a classic in the selective memory genre. Lots of stuff left out. Fascinating how they're dealing their history....ain't that the truth!
By the way, thanks for the link to Uncle Ben's. What a contrast with blackprof.com! One site is cleverly done, beautiful to look at and has a strong dose of self-deprecating humor that helps makes its points with style and grace. The other is a bunch of professors screaming "Racism!" at every leaf that blows in front of their faces."beautiful to look at" as contrasted with hard to look at, hard to come to grips with an ugly, ugly recent history - won't you negroes try to forget and ignore? tickles me no end to hear these disingenuous squeals of protest..., Anamnesis binds us with the world in an essential way.
It places us in the centre of the world's proceedings, of its pains, of its deepest quests. It reminds us that Christ's work of salvation concerns the entire world; it embraces the whole universe, earth and heaven, "all things". The church, "which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all" (Eph.1:23), cannot be shut in itself and take thought only for itself. The church lives "for the whole world". With its prayer, its message, its interests, its action, it embraces all the pains of humanity, the exploitation of individuals or groups, the multifaceted oppression of women and children, the local clashes, the global financial unrest and injustice, and deepening ecological threats. The church offers the holy gifts "in all and for all".----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aaron EMAIL: IP: 198.31.170.156 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:05:28 AM Now this is the pinnacle of ridiculousness! "Uncle Ben's" image is meant to portray the homemade quality of the food. The company wants us to see Uncle Ben and imagine that we're purchasing the result of a family recipe passed down from generation to generation. Uncle/Chairman Ben has a kind and honest face. He's elderly which is meant to make us believe that the recipe is the result of a lifetime spent perfecting the recipe. No one looks at a package of Uncle Ben's rice and actually believes that most black people are just like Uncle Ben. That's absurd. And how is this any different than commercials for Vlasic pickles (that could be seen as stereotyping Jews) or the Taco Bell dog (that could be seen as sterotyping Mexicans)? Like it or not kosher pickles are associated with Jews and mexican food (if Taco Bell even fits the bill), believe it or not, is associated with Mexicans. Consumers like to believe they are purchasing an authentic product. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: kyle EMAIL: kyle@spam.com IP: 207.47.5.100 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:34:11 AM That slide show was well worth the visit. It's so easy to look back in moral satisfaction at the prejudices of yesteryear and so hard to look at ourselves (myself included) in the mirror. So what are we to make of this phrase in the slide show, which was on the page with the Chief Wahoo picture? The accompanying text says that Chief Wahoo was "grinning like a frat boy at an orgy." Wow. Fighting fire with fire? Prejudice to combat prejudice? "Good" stereotyping to counter "bad" stereotyping? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: LFT EMAIL: IP: 138.163.0.41 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 12:13:24 PM I agree with Aaron. Uncle Ben's these aren't: http://www.ferris.edu/news/jimcrow/caricature/ http://www.ferris.edu/news/jimcrow/cartoons/ ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 12:24:31 PM Aaron: You have no clue about the history of African-Americans in this country if you think that the choice of the name and image of Uncle Ben was some innocent portrayal of some arbitrary cook or waiter. Rice was farmed by African slaves and was associated with southern Blacks because it was pretty much brought here by Africans during the slave trade. It was a major slave product produced in South Carolina. While we today tend to associate rice with Asian foods, that was not the case when Uncle Ben's was introduced. It was a southern dish and in the South, the cooks and servants of the well to do were Black. Using the image of Uncle Ben--a servant to wealthy White people--provided this rice product with an upscale image--at the expense of Black people. This image stereotyped Black men as servants and harkened to an era when Blacks knew their place. You are looking at the box from your modern post civil rights perspective, not from the Jim Crow perspective in which it was developed. Even today, you see nothing wrong with this servile image of a Black man. As for the Taco Bell dog, in case you haven't noticed, that campaign was ended. Why? Because many Mexican-Americans found that ad distasteful and offensive. If there had been TV ads back when Uncle Ben first came out, it would have looked like a Step-n-Fetch-It Minstrel show. I don't think there would be any doubt about the image that Uncle Ben was portraying--an old, un-educated, shuffling, freed slave that's jus' happy to be alive and serving these good Whtie folk! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 02:04:57 PM Is it just me, or does this image of Chairman Ben call to mind the Honorable Elijah Muhammad? That bowtie is giving me a hankering for some whitefish and beanpie...., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Rhonda EMAIL: IP: 165.125.144.16 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 02:09:53 PM No one looks at a package of Uncle Ben's rice and actually believes that most black people are just like Uncle Ben. That's absurd.//Aaron You'd be surprised at what people actually believe. Folks still think that black men have enormous penises; if they're that stupid to believe that, it's not impossible that they'd think that black folks are like Uncle Ben. White America, believe it or not, longs for the days when "It's Darkies" were docile and happy. If you are anything other than that, you are perceived as having an attitude, or you are angry. I still get that, "Are you okay, are you upset about something?" when I'm at my desk, working intently. My response is always, "No, I'm not upset, I'm busy, can I help you with something?" ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 02:40:10 PM
You'd be surprised at what people actually believe. Folks still think that black men have enormous penises; if they're that stupid to believe that, it's not impossible that they'd think that black folks are like Uncle Ben.HEY, HEY, HEY, HEY, HEY!!!!! What the hell? Slow your role sister, don't go talkin out of class like THAT now! I mean dayyum....let's not get hasty and start airing out trade secrets in public! (^; ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: bigmaconcampus EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.121 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 03:21:09 PM "White America, believe it or not, longs for the days when "It's Darkies" were docile and happy." what, you don't want to be happy? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 04:47:32 PM is "uncle ben" a euphemism for "uncle tom"? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: maleficent cat EMAIL: IP: 81.208.36.89 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 06:01:49 PM "Uncle Ben's" image is meant to portray the homemade quality of the food...Consumers like to believe they are purchasing an authentic product" OK, but it's a freakin' box of rice for crying out loud! If consumers are that thick in the head, then damn...I don't even know what to say... A box of rice?!Americans really need to get out more, I mean the last time I bought a bag of rice, the bag was clear and just said "rice" on it... P.s. the slide show was informative, although I have to agree with kyle, that some of the comments in the slide show were a bit much... cmoney's take is all there needs to be said on the rest... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 07:25:24 PM speaking of images that make me go hmm...., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: tio ben EMAIL: IP: 72.76.3.157 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:52:14 PM Hola amigos..I'm all over this topic like white on rice...ya know, pa que sepas.. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: tio ben EMAIL: IP: 72.76.3.157 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:54:14 PM Hola amigos..I'm all over this topic like white on rice...ya know, pa que sepas.. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: tio ben EMAIL: IP: 72.76.3.157 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:59:04 PM Hola amigos..I'm all over this topic like white on rice...ya know, pa que sepas.. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: deb EMAIL: IP: 70.124.86.36 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 05:13:30 PM The very fact that rice is white should concern us all. After all, why should anything which keeps half of the world alive be "white." That's so wrong! As for "black widow" anything, let me just say that putting down on the black culture is despicable. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 06:44:40 AM Rhoda: "Folks still think that black men have enormous penises;" Uhm enormous is not true, but bigger on average? yes. Even the UN (World Health Organization) agrees. :-) "The World Health Organization bases its specifications for condom width on consumer preference and penis size, citing three studies. Taken together, the studies show significant variations in penis size within all population groups, but also indicate that men of African descent on average have a slightly wider and longer penis size, Caucasian men have a medium size, and Asian men a slightly narrower and shorter size. (WHO)" http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1998/WHO_RHT_FPP_98.15_spec&guidelines.pdf on pg. 65 ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: bolezn@hotmail.com IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 06:46:11 AM last post was me. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Rhonda EMAIL: IP: 165.125.144.16 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 01:44:12 PM men of African descent on average have a slightly wider and longer penis size, Caucasian men have a medium size, and Asian men a slightly narrower and shorter size. (WHO)" http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1998/WHO_RHT_FPP_98.15_spec&guidelines.pdf on pg. 65 Posted by: Anonymous The key word being SLIGHTLY...as opposed to the prevailing myth that black men's penises are so much longer and thicker than those of men of other ethnicities. As for Uncle Ben, I haven't bought it in years...but when I look at the picture, I tend to want to cringe, as I do when I look at the picture on the box of Cream of Wheat. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: bolezn@hotmail.com IP: 162.6.224.224 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 05/07/2007 02:43:16 PM Well yeah Rhonda...you are right, this goes to the Mandingo stereotype that black men basically have a "third leg" and are basically animalistic/primitives. (sigh)...I also agree when I see Uncle Men or Aunt Jamima I think of slaves...I always have, since late elementary school. They have tried to update Aunt Jamimima's image too, but it is too late for that. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: John Holmes EMAIL: IP: 71.109.49.77 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 11:20:37 PM Looks like DH has done his homework on penis sizes. Apparently he is not ignorant on everything. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nipsey washington EMAIL: me@jiggaboojones.com IP: 152.132.10.196 URL: http://www.niggajigga.com DATE: 05/08/2007 09:17:59 PM Well you know if you look hard enough ANYTHING can be racist..... So what Uncle Bens rice Aunt J syrup. Grew up with them and never felt bad about that. with such more important issues to be tackle all I ask is so what and why?? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nipsey washington EMAIL: me@jiggaboojones.com IP: 152.132.10.196 URL: http://www.niggajigga.com DATE: 05/08/2007 09:18:45 PM Well you know if you look hard enough ANYTHING can be racist..... So what Uncle Bens rice Aunt J syrup. Grew up with them and never felt bad about that. with such more important issues to be tackle all I ask is so what and why?? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BBTPM EMAIL: j.smith@yahoo.com IP: 202.33.24.132 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 11:27:35 PM There are more important issues than fictional characters from yesteryear. That was an entirely different era... Time would be better spent focusing on real issues that affect the Black community. These issues would include, but are not limited to self exploitation by Black people in today's entertainment industry. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: hey you EMAIL: IP: 152.163.100.8 URL: DATE: 06/05/2007 08:44:50 PM I totally agree with aron sorry ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: owhnle rumf EMAIL: uvwh@mail.com IP: 194.112.113.78 URL: http://www.umztjdofl.esab.com DATE: 08/18/2007 07:40:04 AM cuvnjpf sgknyb nxtosv rqkscfuyl qxfvpswm cvziaybpt cxeovsmp ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: owhnle rumf EMAIL: uvwh@mail.com IP: 209.97.195.208 URL: http://www.umztjdofl.esab.com DATE: 08/18/2007 07:41:04 AM cuvnjpf sgknyb nxtosv rqkscfuyl qxfvpswm cvziaybpt cxeovsmp ----- -------- AUTHOR: lharris TITLE: Should Black Folks Die in Iraq, Too? STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 PRIMARY CATEGORY: race CATEGORY: race DATE: 05/03/2007 11:05:58 AM ----- BODY:
Thanks for the introduction. I am gratified by the opportunity to post on BlackProf, certainly one of the successful blogs on the Internet.
I want to start off by posting about Iraq and black involvement (or the lack thereof). The military has had a tough time meeting there recruiting goals to meet the twin demands of Iraq and Afghanistan, even though the military has lowered standards and increased spending sharply to recruit. Still, as reported today in a newspaper article, all the major Democratic candidates for this year want to increase the size of ground forces. (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/08-hopefuls-would-grow-the-military-2007-05-02.html). Part of the recruiting problem has to be African Americans, which the military has had a particularly tough time recruiting. According to National Public Radio (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4561618&sc=emaf), African Americans recruits to the Army are down 41% since 2000.
The sharp drop in African American recruits is surprising, considering that there is long history (or trope?) of African Americans being over-represented in uniform. The decline in African American enlistees is even more surprising, given that military service has never had so many benefits from combat pay to enlistment bonuses to tuition assistance. In some sense, Latinos may be picking up the slack. Over the same period of the decline in African American enlistment, the number of Latinos enlistees is rising fast. One reporter has noted the prevalence of bumper stickers in Florida that read: “Yo Soy Army.” What’s going on? Why the change of heart among African Americans? Whether a hawk or a dove, the military does offer significant benefits for those that enlist, like those mentioned, but also a marketable skill set, exposure to a diverse group of individuals and other cultures, and discipline, among others. Thus, is it a good thing that African Americans are increasingly disinclined to enlist?
----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 70.12.44.220 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/03/2007 11:19:55 AM Dr. Sonja Ebron spelled it out years ago...,What are we to do? Recognize that Black well being in the U.S. and around the world will be adversely impacted by our government's war for oil. Recognize that an oil war, by increasing the costs of energy, threatens oil-importing developing economies everywhere, especially those in Africa and South America, as well as Black America's. Recognize that the war to control the world's oil is in the late planning stages but is early in its implementation and can be stopped. Recognize that Martin was killed because of the moral authority he brought to the Vietnam anti-war movement, drawn from his use of the "race card," and that the African American community retains that authority. Recognize that our ability to drive domestic response to an immoral foreign policy is what keeps the warmongers up at night. Recognize that thoughtful Black people, from Nelson Mandela to your next-door neighbor, are against this war for two reasons: because it is against Black interests - in the U.S., in central and South America, in Africa - and because it is so very terribly wrong. Talk to your friends and family about your opposition to the war. Stick an anti-war poster in your yard and a bumper sticker on your car. Join or help organize a local or national protest. Call, write, email and visit your congressional representatives. Take a few "sick days" from work, and don't buy anything you don't absolutely need. Get behind the anti-war movement now, before it's too late.----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: nunya EMAIL: queernunya@aol.com IP: 141.211.81.206 URL: http://queerthinker.blogspot.com DATE: 05/03/2007 11:48:45 AM So...blacks are supposed to put their lives on the lines because good benefits are offered?! For a nation that doesn't really even consider us Americans? Latinos might be that delusional (after all, to many of them, America is better than where they're originally from), but apparently we're not. Plus, maybe if there weren't a nonsensical war going on right now, more blacks would be enlisting. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: nunya EMAIL: queernunya@aol.com IP: 141.211.81.206 URL: http://queerthinker.blogspot.com DATE: 05/03/2007 11:49:53 AM So...blacks are supposed to put their lives on the lines because good benefits are offered?! For a nation that doesn't really even consider us Americans? Latinos might be that delusional (after all, to many of them, America is better than where they're originally from), but apparently we're not. Plus, maybe if there weren't a nonsensical war going on right now, more blacks would be enlisting. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 11:50:28 AM The best way to recruit Black people into the armed forces: Establish and maintain a system of racial equality and justice in the United States. Period. When the people of this nation decide they are tired and fed up with white supremacy, that is what will result. Until then Black people have no business in the U. S. armed forces carrying out white supremist imperialism goals. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Cincinnati NAMjA EMAIL: covrider1978@yahoo.com IP: 192.122.237.11 URL: http://namjablog.blogspot.com DATE: 05/03/2007 12:35:08 PM I think that it is great that the number of African Americans enlisting in the Armend Forces are dropping. It means that there are grater oppurtunities for is on the "out side". ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 12:49:02 PM Nobody should be dying in Iraq-Black, White, Latino, Asian, Arab--nobody. Blacks are abandoning the armed forces because our country has gone off the deep end philosophically and has delusional leadership. This war and this administration is simply not worth dying for and African-Americans see that more clearly than most. Let all those who voted for Bush enlist and die. The world would be a better place with fewer of them around. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 01:05:34 PM I left the Nam and joined the Panters and the Lords. So you know where I stand. Not one of my children went into the service. When a society can now send both parents to war and leave children with grandparents, how can they say they believe in family values? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 01:10:47 PM The use of well trained personnel to work with other nations is what should be. Not to go to war but to stop genocide! The service we should push is sending qualified folks into the communities. On a yearly bases. Civil Duties!!! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ETS EMAIL: escott@alumni.unc.edu IP: 204.155.172.17 URL: http://www.nubianoproject.com DATE: 05/03/2007 01:11:02 PM Blacks should die if they want to die ... not because they enlisted in the military because it was their only outlet. If they wanted to die on purpose, they could have just gone with plan A. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.173.248 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 01:20:02 PM Why should black folks fight for a government installed by Jim Crow vote rigging, whose every move is in antithesis to our basic human interests? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: AnnabelleDickson EMAIL: IP: 131.118.39.36 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 01:24:59 PM Yo soy Army. -- Are you kidding me? If Black folks are finding better opportunities elsewhere then yes, it is a good thing that our numbers in the military are declining. If it's an act of political protest, even better. If the numbers are declining due to Backs being unable to qualify for service then the answer becomes no and it speaks to other issues. I think I'm more interested in why the numbers are declining as opposed to whether or not it's good or bad. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 02:29:39 PM well, if blacks aren't going into the army because they have better job opportunities at home, doesn't that mean that blacks are progressing instead of regressing socioeconomically, quite contrary to the "victimhood" logic of the black left? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.154.164 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/03/2007 02:33:22 PM The profession of U.S. Soldier is still the noblest profession in a world where our and other nations’ leaders are willing to risk the lives of thousands of their bravest citizens in order to achieve their political economic objectives. In the U.S., we select our leaders. We elect them and give them the power to start or end our wars. We contribute the tax dollars that pay for annual $500 billion U.S. Department of Defense budgets. So, our soldiers fight for us when we decide to go to war against nations or ideas. Our soldiers stay at war until we decide to bring them home. U.S. soldiers transform our tough words turn into tough action. Soldiers walk our political economic talk. That’s the vocation. The noblest vocation. I believe more U.S. citizens would use their power to send our soldiers to war or bring our soldiers home more judiciously if a higher percentage of us had served in the military. And, I still believe most U.S. citizens, of all social classes, could benefit from military training and experiences. I am a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate and a former military officer. Since graduating in 1995, I’ve advised many Black men and women who were considering joining the military by enlisting, by completing an ROTC program, or by completing an Officer Training School program. I also spent my first year as a commissioned military officer working with the Academy’s admissions office in a position that enabled me to work almost exclusively with its minority candidates. While in this position, I travelled to more than a dozen major U.S. cities to promote, not to recruit for, the Academy. Few of the lower-class or middle-class Black high school students in Detroit, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Seattle, Oakland, and other cities I visited knew about their U.S. Air Force Academy or their U.S. Naval Academy or their U.S. Coast Guard Academy. Most had heard of West Point. Few knew the differences between military officers and enlisted members. So, I spent a lot of time educating Black students, teachers, counselors, community leaders, and parents about their country’s military organization and the various types of military careers and opportunities. I also spent a lot of time addressing concerns about being Black in the military. I didn’t attempt to convince Black students that everything bad they had heard about being Black in the military was wrong. I did spend a lot of time telling them about the very important history of Blacks in the military, the many Blacks who had greatly benefitted from their military careers, and the ways they might be able to benefit greatly from careers as military officers. I also shared my personal story with them. Unfortunately, anti-military sentiments in our Black communities are even stronger these days than they were while I held that job. Personally, I am unconvinced our war in Iraq is either just or necessary. And, I hope more of my fellow citizens will begin to use their political and economic influence in order to get our soldiers out of Iraq faster. Even so, I would still advise most talented young Black men and women to strongly consider military careers. The profession of the U.S. Soldier is still the noblest vocation there is. RECOMMENDED BOOK American Patriots: The Story of Blacks in the Military from the Revolution to Desert Storm (ISBN 0375502793), by Gail Buckley. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: rusty EMAIL: IP: 72.43.116.93 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 02:37:48 PM "even in the Army, African Americans in the volunteer force are more likely to enlist in administrative, medical, and support specialties rather than in combat specialties. In the context of current combat operations in Iraq, these differences are not as important as they would be in a conventional war: In Iraq, there is no front line, and all military personnel are potential combatants." http://www.prb.org/Articles/2005/ArmyRecruitmentGoalsEndangeredasPercentofAfricanAmericanEnlisteesDeclines.aspx ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 15.251.169.70 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 03:17:46 PM "The profession of U.S. Soldier is still the noblest profession in a world where our and other nations’ leaders are willing to risk the lives of thousands of their bravest citizens in order to achieve their political economic objectives. In the U.S., we select our leaders. We elect them and give them the power to start or end our wars. We contribute the tax dollars that pay for annual $500 billion U.S. Department of Defense budgets. So, our soldiers fight for us when we decide to go to war against nations or ideas. Our soldiers stay at war until we decide to bring them home. U.S. soldiers transform our tough words turn into tough action. Soldiers walk our political economic talk. That’s the vocation. The noblest vocation." Are you kidding me? Drop the motherhood and apple pie. The events of the last 7 years have effectively negated your paragraph. It is not noble to fight a rich man's war. To encourage our youth to enlist at this time is simply criminal. We are fighting against neither a nation nor ideas. We are a for occupying a few patches of land in a multi-party civil war. We have killed and tortured many so that our puppet government can give US-based oil companies legal permission to exploit another people's natural resources. What's so noble about that? Noblest profession? I beg to differ. I had a chance to attend two military academies. I turned it down, and am glad I did. I don't have to toe the line for this corrupt administration, or suffer from the cognitive dissonance with which I have seen many in uniform struggle. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto (with edits) EMAIL: IP: 15.251.169.70 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 03:22:26 PM Are you kidding me? Drop the motherhood and apple pie. The events of the last 7 years have effectively negated your paragraph. It is not noble to fight a rich man's war. To encourage our youth to enlist at this time is simply criminal. We are fighting against neither a nation nor ideas. We are a force occupying a few patches of land in the midst of a multi-party civil war. We have killed and tortured many so that our puppet government can give US-based oil companies legal permission to exploit another people's natural resources. What's so noble about that? Noblest profession? I beg to differ. I had the chances to attend two military academies. I turned them down, and am glad I did. I don't have to toe the line for this corrupt administration, or suffer from the cognitive dissonance with which I have seen many in uniform struggle. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: rikyrah EMAIL: siport27@aol.com IP: 172.131.77.9 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 03:48:13 PM I respect anyone willing to put their lives on the line, but it doesn't mean that I have to encourage anyone I know to do it. People wonder where the Black community is at the anti-war movement. We are here - against the war, as a community, from the beginning. And, unwilling to give our sons and daughters to go to slaughter for an unjust and immoral war. Plus, we see the treatment of those who did serve when they get home. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.154.164 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/03/2007 04:32:17 PM keto: You need a sermon. I wish I had more time to polish this comment/sermon up, but this one will have to do for now. The soldier is the noblest profession in this world because there are still nations who would take from other nations against their will. The soldier defends his or her nation from those other nations. We still live in an aggressive world. Even though we live in the most powerful nation, our power would fade away quickly without our military force. You are too smart to make the mistake of thinking we don't need a military force to maintain or increase our quality of life. You are too smart to make the mistake of thinking that our military might doesn’t influence all the wealth-building international trade deals we have been able to “negotiate” with other nations or our global economic eminence. You are too smart to make the mistake of thinking that our supreme military power is not linked to the fact that you can live so opulently on only 40 to 60 hours of labor per week. And, you are too smart to make the mistake of thinking we don't need soldiers to keep our military strong. U.S. Blacks might not have it as good as U.S. Whites when it comes to average wealth, power, or prestige; however, that is an intra-national problem. We still need people who are willing to do more than talk for their country, who are willing to deal with very real actual and possible international problems. The nobility of the soldier’s profession has nothing to do with race or social class my fellow U.S. citizen. Nor does it have anything to do with whether our current wars are just. We make the U.S. soldier’s profession the noblest profession, because the U.S. soldier walks your, my, our political economic talk. What your and my leaders do with our tax dollars and military machine can be unjust; however, those leaders' unjust uses of our military does not make the soldier’s profession less noble. The soldier is still the one who enables you to live the quality of life you enjoy, no matter what type of political economic games we allow our leaders to play using our soldiers’ lives. You should not forget that. And, you should not forget that soldiers don't go to war until the leaders we put in power or allow to stay in power send them. More importantly, you ought not to forget that they won’t come home until more U.S. citizens demand that our leaders bring them home. If you are tax paying U.S. citizen, with the right to vote and the right to protest, my country’s Southwest Asia wars are your wars too. Our military is using our money. If your political representatives support the war and you aren't using your money, votes, and influence to replace those representatives with people who would end the war, some might argue that your inaction speaks louder than your tough talk. I am a veteran. And, I didn’t have a problem with you or my other fellow U.S. citizens when you and they sent me into combat zones. Somebody had to go; that’s what my fellow citizens agreed upon. I figured it might as well be me. And, while I was in the military, I didn’t have a problem with allowing you and other U.S. citizens to do the tough talking while I did the tough walking. Somebody had to back up all our tough talk. I figured it might as well be me. So, I put the uniform on and I walked your tough talk (or your tough silence). My allegiance to my country and my fellow soldiers is strong. It will always be strong. That part is not political. On the political side, I use my time, money, and influence in my efforts to get our soldiers back home. That's how I do my tough walking these days. If you are not doing something more than talking to bring our soldiers home, then your words are empty. You are another one of those talkers who never really gets around to walking. Don't let the illusion or fallacy of political economic powerlessness give you an excuse to do nothing about our wars if you don't approve of them. You are not powerless, but you write as if you might have been convinced that your political and economic power has no value, as if you were invisible. I highlighted the pronouns in my initial comment for a reason my fellow U.S. citizen. You do pay taxes and vote don't you? I would ask you to tell me which profession is nobler than the U.S. soldier, but I wouldn't want to waste any more of your time. I'd prefer that you use that time walking some of your talk. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/03/2007 05:33:09 PM what Dr. Ebron said...,
Recognize that Martin was killed because of the moral authority he brought to the Vietnam anti-war movement, drawn from his use of the "race card," and that the African American community retains that authority. Recognize that our ability to drive domestic response to an immoral foreign policy is what keeps the warmongers up at night. Recognize that thoughtful Black people, from Nelson Mandela to your next-door neighbor, are against this war for two reasons: because it is against Black interests - in the U.S., in central and South America, in Africa - and because it is so very terribly wrong. Talk to your friends and family about your opposition to the war. Stick an anti-war poster in your yard and a bumper sticker on your car. Join or help organize a local or national protest. Call, write, email and visit your congressional representatives. Take a few "sick days" from work, and don't buy anything you don't absolutely need.is the truth. the bloated, unsustainable, unjust, and ultimately doomed American standard of living is a moral abomination. any and all measures implemented to forcibly sustain an immoral way of life are themselves immoral. there's nothing noble about wasting 8 times the average American per capita of energy consumption pursuant to the practice of industrialized force projection and murder. it's not only immoral, it's flat out archaic and stupid, as well..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 15.251.169.69 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 05:40:30 PM "I would ask you to tell me which profession is nobler than the U.S. soldier" Doctor, inner city teacher, paramedic, the people who manage and run institutions that help and assist the poor,... the list goes on, but you get the gist. "My allegiance to my country and my fellow soldiers is strong." Since you are a soldier, how could one expect less? "On the political side, I use my time, money, and influence in my efforts to get our soldiers back home. That's how I do my tough walking these days. If you are not doing something more than talking to bring our soldiers home, then your words are empty. You are another one of those talkers who never really gets around to walking. Don't let the illusion or fallacy of political economic powerlessness give you an excuse to do nothing about our wars if you don't approve of them." "I'd prefer that you use that time walking some of your talk." I most certainly do. I give my time and resources where I think it will do enough good. And I vote, btw. "You are not powerless, but you write as if you might have been convinced that your political and economic power has no value, as if you were invisible. I highlighted the pronouns in my initial comment for a reason my fellow U.S. citizen." Katrina, dozens of imperialist wars, the dramatic paring down of my civil liberties, and an ultra-corrupt regime at home has shown all of us how little power we actually have. "The soldier is the noblest profession in this world because there are still nations who would take from other nations against their will. " Most prominently, that would be us doing the taking. The fact that our prosperity is based on the blood and backs of the denizens of our pseudo-empire doesn't make the troops that enabled this situation more noble. (My conscious won't be bribed that easily.) That goes to our shame. "The nobility of the soldier’s profession has nothing to do with race or social class my fellow U.S. citizen. Nor does it have anything to do with whether our current wars are just. We make the U.S. soldier’s profession the noblest profession, because the U.S. soldier walks your, my, our political economic talk." Taking ethics and social context out of it sure does make things nice and simple, doesn't it? The nobility of a soldier is directly tied to those things you listed. Context is everything. A sword can kill a rabid dog, or it can kill a newborn baby. Likewise, the nobility of our soldiers is a direct function of who uses them and for what reason. Also, you are elevating the role of the military too highly. It is one tool in a set that enables our power and might. The mystique and honor you draw around the military is understandable, since killing enemies and innocents requires some strong rationale. However, a cool analysis would reveal to you that a base of soldiers (noble as they may be) by itself is useless. Technology, diplomacy, business savvy are all as or more important than the army. Bush's "troops only" methodology has proven this out. In that case, we don't need more soldiers, we need prudent leadership at the helm. Also, on walking "our" talk, please get real, here. The US soldier walks the talk of corporations and the rich. They don't speak for me. OIL is the only reason those poor guys are dying over there, not for my "freedom". And anyone who signs up today is either a fool, bloodthirsty, or desperate. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 15.251.169.69 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 05:41:25 PM That was me ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Jim EMAIL: darachmor@msn.com IP: 63.162.143.5 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 06:35:31 PM People who say the war is about oil are simply right. Kevin Phillips in American Thoecracy details how over the years since the beginning of the 20th century US foreign policy, and therefore military policy, has revolved more and more around oil. He points to the pattern of deployments of all three branches of the military as cncrete evidence. He doesn't leave much to refute. But there is no one in any industrialized nation that doesn't live by oil. In the Us people in the north heat thier homes with it and in the South they cool theirs and the whole nation and economy rely on transportation that depends on oil. So it is a little rich to fulminate about a war for oil from some imagined moral high ground and then to enjoy the benefits of an economy based on it. Oil is poison to the countries where it is found - look at the Arab world - in Iraq and saudi Arabia it props (-ed) up dictators that stay in power because they have the money to buy secret police organizations, and they don't ned to develop their people to get their wealth. Ex-pat Nigerians will tell you it is the same story there. This is how Ken Saro-Wiwa died. It's an abomination alright, but we arein no hurry as a world to get off this addiction to oil. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/03/2007 07:09:04 PM you've got to change your evil ways, baby.., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed EMAIL: IP: 68.217.9.240 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 08:32:58 PM Cut EC Hopkins some slack..it is obvious some of you who are attacking the military never served. Spare me the idealogy crap. I joined because I had nothing going for me as a Black kid who parents didn't have money for food, let along college. I met some of the finest Black people in my life in the military - my mentors, friends who really look after my life and well-being and a command structure that I respected because they earned their leadership position. No, you cannot find any of that good stuff in your greek-lettered organizations or in your corporate world. Plenty of outstanding Black people I meet I found out they were in the military making something out of themselves. So E.C. Hopkins is right, it is the most noble service you can do in America and if you haven't serve, then you just don't know. With that said, I agree with all of the statements that going over there and killing and getting killed for Bush pride and "stay the course" rhetoric is the reason Blacks don't want to be bothered with today military. But don't let the worst president we ever had take away from the fact the military had help made a great number of Black people lives better. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 09:06:13 PM Thank you E.C. and Ed for your willingness to serve. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 09:24:43 PM You're right: I never served in the military. And you're right that I am being to harsh to those who serve, including EC. I wrongly projected my frustration with hegemonistic leaders on some of our true-believing troops. Actually, much of my family is military, which is why for a while as a senior in high school, I considered becoming an officer. But there are many other ways to serve your country that are as valuable as joining the military. Maybe not as dramatic, but effective. I still disagree that being a soldier is the most noble profession. This can be the case, but is not inherently so. That distinction has alot to do with context. What are the actions of the individual soldier, and what cause is being fought for? This Iraq adventure doesn't count. What an absolute waste of young lives. Lastly, before I start thanking soldiers for serving, I have to have some idea of when and how. Shooting brown people to support some corporation's profitability just doesn't cut it. I understand the obligations of a soldier; but just because you are forced to fight for the moneyed doesn't mean I have to give respect to that. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/03/2007 10:08:49 PM
So E.C. Hopkins is right, it is the most noble service you can do in America and if you haven't serve, then you just don't know.some of the wisest and best men I've ever met were conscripted into military service - they didn't want to be there, but they did what they had to do - and then they tucked it into a memory hole. the fact that they didn't want to be there - yet sacrificed to the duty of being there (that, and avoiding the penitentiary) served as both a personal and an instutional control. what I've seen of this all volunteer army is a whole nother creature. I've yet to meet a single individual ennobled by time in the professional military. as a matter of fact, the most corrupt and malfeasant individuals I've had to deal with in both the public and private sectors were formed in the professional military. Time to revisit the history of exactly why America has a professional army rather than a citizen conscript army nowadays..,
The U.S. government would be happy to see the history of the Vietnam War buried and forgotten. Not least because it saw the world’s greatest superpower defeated by a peasant army, but mainly because of what defeated the war effort – the collective resistance of the enlisted men and women in the U.S. armed forces, who mutinied, sabotaged, shirked, fragged and smoked their way to a full withdrawal and an end to the conflict.guess there's no need to talk about Tillman, Lynch, Abu Ghraib, Walter Reed, and other recent institutional PR phukkups plaguing the "noble profession"? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 68.55.117.119 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 10:40:24 PM I have to disagree with the assertion that being a soldier is the most noble profession. With no disrespect to our esteemed commenters, the military has produced some of the worst terrorists and murderers in world history. Timothy McVeigh and Lee Harvey Oswald come to mind as two ignoble ex-military men who used their training to terrorize this nation. A soldier's job and training is to KILL other people. Yes, it may be in an organized, scientific, precise and well intentioned manner in the name of God and country, but it is killing nonetheless. Let's not confuse the wonderful personal experiences, training, education, discipline and benefits soldiers receive and provide with their ultimate mission--to kill. Killing is nothing to be proud of. While I am sure there are some great men and women in the military -and I don't take anything away from their accomplishments or sincerity-I find it hard to assign noble and positive attributes to a profession whose mission is about death and destruction or the threat of death and destruction. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.20 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 10:51:28 PM I have served, although during peace time. A young man which I raised as a son is now serving his second tour of Iraq as an Army Captain. However, I would encourage any person of color to get more than "three 'hots' and a cot" from their military service. Seek a ROTC educational opportunity. Some of the best educational opportunities available are via the "Military Junior College" system where you may be commissioned as a 2LT after just your sophomore year of college. [see www.marionmilitary.edu] ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.163.229 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/03/2007 11:32:57 PM keto: I did anticipate you would respond as you did. And, I anticipated that you would misread my comments in ways similar to the ways you did. That's okay. I know how power works. I know that the power elite, most of whom are U.S. born White males, influence much more wealth, power, and prestige than Black and Brown people. I know who will benefit most, economically, from our current wars. And, I know you and I and the average U.S. citizen benefitted economically from the many uses of our military, as a wealth-building political economic tool, during the 20th Century. I realize technology, innovations, and good ol' fashioned hard work helped the U.S. accumulate world-leading wealth and power as well. This may be where we differ: I don't think the U.S. would have become the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world but for our superior military. We used intimidating military powers to gain control over the Panama Canal. We used military might and soldiers’ lives to win WWI and WWII. Those early uses, in my opinion, secured the power we used in order to lead the world with respect to technological innovations and dominate economically during the second half of the 20st Century. So, I think our superior military, more than any other factor, enabled us to be superior in all the other ways you mentioned. We might also differ on another point. I think those who assert U.S. soldiers fight for special interests and corporations oversimplify their political economic relationships to the U.S. Military. Soldiers fight for U.S. citizens. U.S. citizens allow special interests and corporations to dominate our government. That's our fault. Each U.S. citizen shares blame for letting special interests and corporations do what they do in our name. So, I can agree with you that powerful special interests and corporations are responsible for sending our troops to Southwest Asia and keeping them there, while at the same time still argue that our soldiers are fighting for you and me, because you and I allow the powerful special interests and corporations to use our military the ways they do. And, I suspect we don’t really know whether we could have stopped the powerful special interests and corporations from using our military the ways they have. Because we didn’t do everything we could to stop them. I believe U.S. citizens have the power to take back control over how our military power gets used. Perhaps you don’t. So, unless you want to take the position that U.S. citizens are not responsible for allowing special interest and corporations to run our government, you need to take responsibility for your role in enabling the power elite to use our military to achieve their political economic ends. You might only have little power, but you have some. I’ll assume you have been using your wealth, prestige, and power to do much more than talk about how little power you have. Additionally, you disrespected all soldiers and demonstrated a lack of practical wisdom and good taste when you wrote "anyone who signs up today is either a fool, bloodthirsty, or desperate." You really should retract that public statement. I guarantee you that the men and women who enter or graduate from our military academies every year have plenty of options. Scholarships at military academies are worth approximately $200,000 and the our military academies are among our nation’s top 15 most selective academic institutions. If you could have attend two military academies as you say, then you know how very difficult it would have been to get into one of them. You know that you would have had to convince a U.S. Representative, a U.S. Senator, the U.S. Vice President, or the U.S. President to give you one of his or her limited nominations after you had passed the physical, passed the physical fitness test, convinced a military liaison officer that you had sufficient character and leadership potential via an interview, received a great SAT or ACT score, and received outstanding grades in high school, especially in math and science courses. However, military academy cadets are not the only soldiers who have plenty of options. Almost all of the men and women who decide to re-enlist in the military after their first tours of duty have plenty of options. After their first tours of duty most of them will have picked up very valuable training and experiences that could help them get better paying jobs in many industries. I still believe most U.S. soldiers choose or stick with military careers because they realize that the profession of U.S. soldier is the noblest, not because they are “either a fool, bloodthirsty, or desperate.” I probably know a few hundred more soldiers on a personal level than you do, so the sample size for my generalization here might be a bit larger than yours. At the end of the day, your right to speak lowly of your U.S. soldiers, your right to be an unsound hypocrite by speaking lowly of the U.S. soldiers who walk your political economic talk, your right to get your political economic relationship to the U.S. Military and our Southwest Asia wars so very wrong, and your right to believe there is a single profession even remotely as noble as that of the U.S. Soldier, are some of the rights I voluntarily wore the uniform to protect, after I had turned down several full-ride scholarship offers from some of the best universities in the nation. And at the end of the day, when hypocritical non-soldiers talk about how there are many better ways than soldiering to walk America's international political economic talk--I mean the talking we do through the IMF, the World Bank, the G8, the U.N., international trade agreements, and other wealth-building vehicles we use to make it so easy for so many U.S. citizens to live very opulent lives without much toil--soldiers will know this: we could have helped our country maintain its economic eminence by doing well in professions that never put us in harm's way. But since some U.S. citizens’ bodies were going to be put in harm's way, we volunteered our bodies, as well as our minds. We offered much more than productive labor and talk. We did the kind of walking that the most powerful nation in the world could not be the most powerful nation in the world without. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.163.229 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/04/2007 12:02:09 AM cmoney: Your May 3, 2007 10:40 pm comment is a fallacious argument. Why did you use the fact that “the military has produced some of the worst terrorists and murderers in world history” as a premise to argue that the profession of soldiering is not the noblest profession? Don’t you realize that is a grossly fallacious method of argumentation? Moreover, the mission of the U.S. Military is not to kill. Where did you learn that? The U.S. Military is one of your country’s political economic tools. Do you understand why military wars between nations are fought? Do you understand which political and economic processes often fail before the U.S. Military is sent to attack? Do you realize that the U.S. Military actually attempts to limit human casualties, by focusing on the opponent’s infrastructure? Really cmoney, if the U.S. Military mission were simply to kill as you assert, don’t you think many more people would have been killed in our wars? I am confused about why you even would write “Killing is nothing to be proud of.” Do you really think most U.S. soldiers who have had to kill took pride in killing? This is one of the reasons why I wish more U.S. citizens would serve in the military. Even smart folks like you and cnulan often make gross errors about the military. You both argued fallaciously in back-to-back comments. I don’t have enough time to write a lengthy U.S. Military 101 comment right now. My sermons for keto ate up almost all of my allotted weekly blogging hours. I would recommend that both you and cnulan review your shaky premises and the soundness of your arguments. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Makheru EMAIL: IP: 68.222.159.139 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 01:22:40 AM With all due respect to Prof. Harris, I take issue with the title of this thread, “Should Black Folks Die in Iraq, Too?” Afrikan Americans are dying in Iraq. According to a study by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, Afrikan Americans accounted for 16.7% of the military personnel killed in Iraq prior to Bush’s publicity stunt on the deck on the Lincoln (5/1/03) and we represent 12.2% of the deaths since Bush’s stunt. So Afrikan Americans are dying in Iraq, maybe not at the rate some people would hope for, but we are dying. The professor asks, “Thus, is it a good thing that African Americans are increasingly disinclined to enlist?” That’s not a good thing professor, that’s a great thing. The current generation of young Black people is often maligned for their lack of political consciousness, and their refusal to accept intergenerational transfers of wisdom. When one analyzes the high school graduation rates, and the labor-force participation rates of young Afrikan American males, and one considers the lowered standards, and economic enticements for military enlistment, and our enlistment rates are still declining, then what else is their to conclude. A whole lot of young Afrikan Americans are making conscious decisions. With all due respect to EC, Ed, and any other veterans, I believe that the noblest people are those who put their lives on the line fighting for the rights of their people in the belly of this beast. I want to emphasize that I’m not saying this in disrespect of the brave veterans and soldiers of America. To do so, would be to disrespect my late father (WWII vet), and numerous relatives and friends. The issue is not courage; it’s orientation in my opinion. For the record, during the latter years of the Vietnam War, when a military recruiter found out that I was no longer enrolled in Morehouse, he began an intense recruitment of yours truly. Just as quickly, he dropped me like a hot potato. I could only surmise that it was because my name turned up on the FBI’s COINTELPRO files during that timeframe. Although they could have drafted me, apparently they decided that I was not worth the risk. Some of America’s finest soldiers have had second thoughts about their nobility. “I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.... “I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. “During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.” – Major-General Smedley Butler, 1933 In addition, has anyone considered who the military is now recruiting? The following excerpts are from: http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=121072 “Nick Turse on 12-Pentagon Steps to a Misfit Military:” In 2004, the Pentagon instituted a "Moral Waiver Study" whose seemingly benign goal was "to better define relationships between pre-Service behaviors and subsequent Service success." That turned out to mean opening the recruitment doors to potential enlistees with criminal records. In February of this year (2005), the Baltimore Sun wrote that there was "a significant increase in the number of recruits with what the Army terms ‘serious criminal misconduct' in their background" -- a category that included: "aggravated assault, robbery, vehicular manslaughter, receiving stolen property and making terrorist threats." The Houston Chronicle reported in August that Army recruiters were trolling around the outskirts of a Dallas-area job fair for ex-convicts. "We're looking for high school graduates with no more than one felony on their record," one recruiter said. In July, a study by the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks racist and right-wing militia groups, found that -- due to pressing manpower concerns -- "large numbers of neo-Nazis and skinhead extremists" are now serving the military. "Recruiters are knowingly allowing neo-Nazis and white supremacists to join the armed forces and commanders don't remove them from the military even after we positively identify them as extremists or gang members," said Scott Barfield, a Defense Department investigator quoted in the report. The New York Times noted that the neo-Nazi magazine Resistance is actually recruiting for the U.S. military "urging skinheads to join the Army and insist on being assigned to light infantry units." As the magazine explained, "The coming race war and the ethnic cleansing to follow will be very much an infantryman's war… It will be house-to-house… until your town or city is cleared and the alien races are driven into the countryside where they can be hunted down and ‘cleansed.' –Nick Turse I suppose one can hope that these people will become “noble characters” while in the military. If not, maybe the long term effects of exposure to DU weapons will take its toll on these folks. You fellows can hope for the best, but my position is that military power will not save America. In fact, the arrogance America derives from its military might will be a major contributing factor to its downfall. As Chalmers Johnson says, “history tells us that one of the most unstable political combinations is a country – like the United States today – that tries to be a domestic democracy and a foreign imperialist.” Makheru ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 07:19:11 AM
Even smart folks like you and cnulan often make gross errors about the military. You both argued fallaciously in back-to-back comments.I don't argue fallaciously, though from time to time, I indulge a little hyperbole and ridicule...,
This is one of the reasons why I wish more U.S. citizens would serve in the military.Not much has changed in that regard. TPTB(the powers that be) have always wanted folks to serve so that they might profit. The so-called "greatest generation" of TPTB kept its platitudes ever so much more real...., The question begging in your impassioned theses E.C., is monumental. Everybody here knows that force projection is the basis of American economic prosperity. The question is whether or not this is an intelligent, moral, or sustainable model for economic prosperity? If the answer is no, then your impassioned thesis falls all to pieces....., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: spike the cat EMAIL: IP: 81.208.36.89 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 08:20:55 AM Military idealogy reminds me of religious idealogy-- 1) that it cannot be criticized 2) indoctrination often targets young people 3) the believers "know" that they are right 4) if you do not believe or in this case, haven't served then you "cannot understand" One thing is the ideology another is reality. And try as you may, you cannot divorce the warrior from the war; Soldiers are not only trained killers, they maime, rape, intimidate, humiliate, and terrorize. This is the reality. I dare someone to show me a war, where this was not the case. Soldiers are human beings like the rest of us, afterall. All this talk about military academies, brotherhood...it's just window dressing to hide behind the ugly truth...because unfortunately the world has not yet figured out how to solve problems without violence. So, societies (including ours) elevate the warriors to the level of heroes or martyrs...not because they are necessarily deserving, but because we need to inspire our young people to sign up. All one has to do is look at the crappy medical care and disporportionate number of homeless vetrans to see how the government and society as a whole REALLY feel about the soldier. So, in conclusion, nobody should be signing up. If we had a draft, I bet the conversation about invading Iraq would have been a lot different. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 09:07:43 AM E.C. Hopkins: When you wrote "Moreover, the mission of the U.S. Military is not to kill." I almost spit out my coffee. What the hell are we spending billions of dollars for bombs, missiles, submarines, bullets, tanks, mortars, landmines, bullets, "smart bombs" and the like for if the mission of the military is not to kill? Those weapons have one purpose: to destroy anything in their path. Maybe we should just mount an ad campaign and dispense with all the weaponry. Who needs all those bombs when we can just run commercials? I am not impugning you or other professionals in the military, but I think you are really pushing the limits of credulity when you claim that the mission of the military is not to kill. And yes, Tim McVeigh and Lee Harvey Oswald were soldiers and pretty good ones from what I have read. I brought them up as a counter to your flowery sermon about the wonderful benefits of military training and the nobility of military life. It also produces monsters. Military life also destroys the lives of many young men who go in thinking they are doing the right thing for their country and come out mentally ill after being abused and participating in or witnessing horrific acts of violence against innocent and not so innocent people. The mental hospitals, prisons and streets are full of these shattered men. And no, I was not in the military. At the time when I considered joining, Reagan and Bush I were president and, as much as I wanted to join and to serve, I just could not fathom fighting and killing people of color around the world at the command of these racist liars. I think I made the right decision for me. I never faulted others who decided to serve, but I don't think of them as "noble". I think they are getting a paycheck, benefits,an education, and entre' into federal employment. If you want to see a noble profession, check out nursing. People who actually save lives, restore health and literally get shit on by their patients and figuratively by the doctors and the hospitals that employ them, yet they labor on helping people for less money than they are worth. Nursing is a noble profession. Soldiers? Well they are a necessary evil, a drain on society, a leg up for some, but nothing to glamorize or put on a pedestal, your service notwithstanding. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 09:30:32 AM
One thing is the ideology another is reality. And try as you may, you cannot divorce the warrior from the war; Soldiers are not only trained killers, they maime, rape, intimidate, humiliate, and terrorize. This is the reality. I dare someone to show me a war, where this was not the case. Soldiers are human beings like the rest of us, afterall.Thanks for the clarity Spike. Building on that thought, I think it is an out of sight out of mind fact that the rabbit-hole that is our reality extends to yet more subterranean levels. This morning, I read a snippet over at Cobb summarizing (in very small part) and in microcosm - the source of woe in contemporary African states from the perspective of a development worker.
The real reason in my opinion is that the systems that restrict government acting in its own interests are very much under-developed, and while many development workers (and even more westerns who bought that poverty wrist band) model their work as helping an altruistic cash-strapped government in Africa to help its people. A better and entirely different model is to imagine you have been parachuted into a playground where a small gang of well-dressed bullies have gained entire domination of the playground, and pay for their lifestyles by taking the other kids' (its a metaphor - easy now...) lunch money. Are development workers playing 'playround monitor' by going and asking the smiling, highly sociopathic bullies, "how can we help you?"Bingo!!!! and this perfectly describes the predicament we face in America, as well. Now, while it is certainly the case that TPTB, (i.e., well dressed bullies) settle their differences via industrialized violence in the Westphalian modern world - (and are very much up in arms about democratized assymetrical violence in the hands of a rabble, i.e., "terrorists") - it is also the case that the well-dressed bullies are also extreme sadists who ultimately govern via fear, violence, and mayhem and the promise of the same. Yesterday, Shavar Jeffries deleted a comment I made to Chauncy in response to his request for point clarification. In that comment, I alluded to Reich's book Listen Little Man - and referred to conservatism as a condition in which its ideological adherents function as sock puppets controlled by the hand of upper-class elite sadists. Conservatism can't hold a candle to military indoctrination and ideology in this regard. Which brings me full-circle to the foundation you laid;
Military idealogy reminds me of religious idealogy-- 1) that it cannot be criticized 2) indoctrination often targets young people 3) the believers "know" that they are right 4) if you do not believe or in this case, haven't served then you "cannot understand"Looking behind the curtain of religion is actually a lot more permissable in this society than looking behind the curtain of militarism. Best believe that the sadistic wizard of Oz doesn't want you to ever question - much less know about - his ruthless and brutal machinations.
"... the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today - my own government." - Dr. Martin Luther King, "Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence," April 4, 1967 at New York City's Riverside ChurchWhich brings us back to the counterpoint of Mr. Hopkins cavalier summons to civic duty and George the aid worker's futile lament about being impotent playgound monitors. Unless you're ready to go to war, and involve everyone you know and love in the process, it's really not feasible for most folks to attempt to challenge the ruthless sadism and penchant for covert gloved ultra-violence that is embodied in TPTB. Doing so can get you shot as MLK and his family found out, and much, much worse..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 09:39:51 AM America 2007 Is Germany 1930
We who live in the post-World War II period possess an immensely valuable symbol, even if we don't understand it or use it effectively: the example of Nazi Germany. "The German experiment, except to those who are its victims, is particularly interesting, and, like the offer of a strong man to let himself be vivisected, should make a great contribution to political science. For the Germans are the most gifted and most highly educated people who ever devoted the full strength of a modern state to stopping the exchange of ideas; they are the most highly organized people who ever devoted all the coercive power of government to the abolition of their own intellectual life; they are the most learned people who ever pretended to believe that the premises and the conclusion of all inquiry may be fixed by political fiat." Walter Lippmann. (1936), The Good Societycmoney on the money this morning;
If you want to see a noble profession, check out nursing. People who actually save lives, restore health and literally get shit on by their patients and figuratively by the doctors and the hospitals that employ them, yet they labor on helping people for less money than they are worth. Nursing is a noble profession.----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.163.229 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/04/2007 09:50:48 AM cnulan: a) I’ll assume you are familiar with the concept of validity in logic. So let’s begin with soundness. I own and have read a few books on philosophical logic, informal logic, argumentation theory, and classical rhetoric. I just pulled one of them off my shelves in order to assist me with this comment: Howard Kahane, Logic and Philosophy: A Modern Introduction, Sixth Edition, 1990. “Valid arguments that contain only true premises (and thus also have a true conclusion) are said to be sound arguments. Invalid arguments and valid arguments containing at least one false premise are said to be unsound arguments.”—Kahane p. 11. b) The Nature of Fallacy? “We can divide reason reasonings into those cases that are cogent--and thus should be persuasive—and those that are fallacious--and therefore should not be persuasive. Cogent reasoning must satisfy three conditions: (1) it must employ arguments whose premises provide good grounds for their conclusions (that is, it must utilize deductively or inductively valid arguments); (2) the premises must be warranted (acceptable) to the reasoned in question; and (3) the premises must contain all of the relevant information known to that reasoner. Fallacious reasoning is just reasoning that is not cogent, which means reasoning that either (1) does not provide sufficiently good grounds for its conclusion; (2) employs unwarranted premises; or (3) ignores or overlooks relevant information.”—Kahane p.296-297. Which fallacies were used in your May 3, 2007 10:03 pm comment for this thread? 1) Fallacy of Hasty Conclusion or Fallacy of Small Sample: “those who are convinced of relevant, but insufficient evidence in support of a theory are guilty of the called hasty conclusion.” Kahane p 301.
“some of the wisest and best men I've ever met”
“what I've seen of this all volunteer army”
“the most corrupt and malfeasant individuals I've had to deal with”2) Fallacy of Appeal to Authority: “applied chiefly to improper appeals to an authority. Appeals are improper, among other cases, when there is good reason to doubt that the authorities have the information needed, or there is evidence of special interests of the like that might prejudice authoritative wisdom…”—Kahane p.300. See your use of the quote from libcom.org. Other fallacies I might be able to justifiably tag to your comment (these would require more time for me to explain than I have this morning): Fallacy of Biased Sample Fallacy of Faulty Comparison Fallacy of Questionable Cause Fallacy of Suppressed Evidence c) What does this mean?
“The question begging in your impassioned theses E.C., is monumental.”A good definition for the fallacy of begging the question (petitio principii) is “when someone uses as a premise some form of the very thesis at issue.”—Kahane p.300. So, when you accuse me of this fallacy, you are basically accusing me of arguing that the “U.S. soldier is the noblest profession because no profession is nobler than the U.S. Soldier.” I’d be surprised if you really believe my argument was that simplistic. Do you? Certainly you realize that the passion with which someone makes an argument or plea does not make the argument or plea fallacious. I won’t accuse you of asserting as much; however, if you did intend to assert that my passion makes my argument fallacious, then I might have to tag you with yet another fallacy.:) d) In your May 4, 2007 7:19 AM comment you write
“The question is whether or not this is an intelligent, moral, or sustainable model for economic prosperity?”I never expressly argued for or against the intelligence, morality, or sustainability of the use of military force in order to accumulate. In fact, I think yours is a good question. I suspect substantial erudition, wordly wisdom, and ample real-world international big stakes experiences are required to have a shot at answering it. Inexperienced armchair philosophers probably won’t be able to answer it very well. However, your good question has nothing to do with how noble the profession of soldier is. Indeed, most of the anti-war arguments in this thread have nothing to do with how noble the profession of soldier is. e) My Argument/Thesis The U.S. soldier fights the wars U.S. citizens ask him or her to fight. U.S. citizens choose whether to use the political economic tool of military war. It is noble to put one’s life and wit on the line to serve the ends of one’s country when the majority of one’s fellow citizens in a democratic republic ask one to risk one’s life in order to maintain or enhance their qualities of life. Professions may be ranked in degree of nobleness according to how much they help their fellow citizens achieve their ends and how much must be risked in order to help their fellow citizens achieve their ends. The soldier’s profession has helped our country achieve its ends at least as much as any other profession. However, no profession (other than professions related to law enforcement or espionage) requires its workers to risk more than the soldier’s profession does. Therefore, the soldier’s profession is the noblest profession. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 10:07:37 AM
The U.S. soldier fights the wars U.S. citizens ask him or her to fight. U.S. citizens choose whether to use the political economic tool of military war.This is a lie, and a farcical one at that. In the specific context of this thread, you've trebly wedged yourself into a blind alley E.C., because the overwhelming majority of Black folks opposed this war of resource appropriation. (and no, I'm not making a fallacious argument from popularity) In future E.C., you can save yourself a lot of time whenever you feel the need to blow straw at a professional logician, try Nizkor's 42, which typically encompasses much of what you'll encounter online and will definitely save you the superfluous keystrokes..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.163.229 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 10:19:15 AM cmoney: I am a student of military science and I have been in real world strategic military planning sessions. I am more than somewhat familiar with the mission of the U.S. Military and how it does its work. The U.S. Military kills. You are correct. However, its mission is to achieve a political economic objective while causing as few casualties as necessary. The U.S. Military kills when it must in order to achieve objectives, our objectives. However, the military does not always need to kill in order to achieve its mission. The mere presence of military force often gets the job done. In this case, others knowing that the military could kill if necessary, gets the job done. Those who plan and execute wars attack infrastructure and logistics first. They attack an opponent's ability to wage war. The goal is to do this while causing as few deaths as necessary. Even though it is true that when the walkers get called up to go do your and my political economic talking real people tend to die, the U.S. Military I know wants to save as many lives as it can. You must understand something. War will happen. When it begins, even the best case scenarios can get ugly. People will probably die. If there were a way for the U.S. to get everything it wants from the world without going war from time to time, then I do hope someone would have found it by now. However, I am not yet convinced that we could get everything we want in the international political economic realm, without going to war from time to time. I don't believe most U.S. citizens are ready to stop killing, or stop asking their soldiers to kill when necessary to achieve our political economic objectives. Sure many U.S. citizens think they are against the use of the political economic tool of military war; however, most of them have just failed to connect all the political economic dots. Most of them just don't want to admit they are complicit in acts that make them uneasy while they philosophize and moralize in their comfortable armchairs. And most of them just don't want to deal with the stuff that happens when powerful nations stop negotiating, because that's walking time--the time when tough-talking philosophers are asked to step aside. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.163.229 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 10:27:07 AM cnulan: Is that the best response you can give me? Obviously we both are students of logic, formal and informal. Surely, you can do better than that my freind. :) Give me a reason to believe that you really do understand why your arguments in this thread were fallacious or weren't. I need to make a phone call to my most desired law school in my efforts to convince them to move me off their wait list and give me a seat. After that, I'll be in meetings all day. I'll not be able to check in on this thread until later this evening. I wrote that because I want to let you know that I will read everything you will write, as I respect your opinion highly. And, I am certain you will give me something to chew on. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 10:55:59 AM
Give me a reason to believe that you really do understand why your arguments in this thread were fallacious or weren't.stripped of puffery and posing, you stated your essential thesis and I flatly contradicted it. everything else is merely preferatory conversation.., if you'd like to proceed to the essence of the thing and how profoundly flawed your core assumption is, the same one leading you to a flawed conclusion re the nobility of soldiering, then by all means, let's get to it. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 10:57:08 AM The noble profession is being a warrior for noble cause. I will agree that for a black man, the military was a profession that gave some sort of self-worth. But they still hung us in Rosewood after our fathers came home. Many of us who went into the Army, like me, to get away from heroin and idleness in Dyckman St Projects; we became once again the warriors for a noble cause - Many BP/Rainbow Coalition cadres where veterans. I left the Nam with an undesirable discharge and three purple hearts; it was upgraded in 76, when they wanted to get the white boys back from Canada. The amount of Africanam with bad discharges was immense. And the racial fights are well documented. Then the Army turned brown and poor. Why?! The discipline that is taught to be a warrior is something I am working on to teach our youth. (I believe this is a way to help stop violence among them) We don’t have to go into the service today to teach that. The military today is much corrupt than it ever was; it can not be noble until the cause of the State it protects is radically changed to defend the rights of the common person, where ever. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:03:23 AM Thanks again E.C Hopkins for your very good posts. Its clear our military has not only allowed us to prosper, but also Europe, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Canada, and many others. And all these countries because of their prosperity have helped us to prosper even more. It was the protection of our military that allowed these countries to expand economically. And we and especially our military should feel good about that. Although, you are against aiding Iraq, I feel that one day they will also join the group of countries who have prospered from our military strength, if we can see this through. The people here who are discounting your service do not wish to live anywhere else in the world, and I believe if it wasn't for our military there wishes would be different. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:22:49 AM "I did anticipate you would respond as you did. And, I anticipated that you would misread my comments in ways similar to the ways you did. That's okay." OK, Let's see then…. "I know how power works. I know that the power elite, most of whom are U.S. born White males, influence much more wealth, power, and prestige than Black and Brown people. I know who will benefit most, economically, from our current wars. And, I know you and I and the average U.S. citizen benefitted economically from the many uses of our military, as a wealth-building political economic tool, during the 20th Century. I realize technology, innovations, and good ol' fashioned hard work helped the U.S. accumulate world-leading wealth and power as well. " Good, at least we agree on the basics. "This may be where we differ: I don't think the U.S. would have become the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world but for our superior military..........(omitted for space)" You're right, this is a point of disagreement, but possibly not by much. My stance here is that the military was required, but not sufficient for domination. Look at all of US international intervention in the last 100 or so years: including our intervention and conquering of Hawaii, Panama/Colombia, Nicaragua, Cuba, Haiti, Guatemala, Honduras, Chile, Venezuela, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines, Iran, and now Afghanistan and Iraq, and our actions in WWI and WWII. In many of these adventures, the direct role of the military was minor indeed, the diplomat, spy and the businessman buttressed strategy. In most of these adventures (that we won), the shrewdness of the military strategist and technological superiority trumped the mere presence of the soldier. "We might also differ on another point. I think those who assert U.S. soldiers fight for special interests and corporations oversimplify their political economic relationships to the U.S. Military. Soldiers fight for U.S. citizens. U.S. citizens allow special interests and corporations to dominate our government. That's our fault. Each U.S. citizen shares blame for letting special interests and corporations do what they do in our name. So, I can agree with you that powerful special interests and corporations are responsible for sending our troops to Southwest Asia and keeping them there, while at the same time still argue that our soldiers are fighting for you and me, because you and I allow the powerful special interests and corporations to use our military the ways they do. " This is indeed a huge disagreement. Look at the list of intervention above. When was the military fighting for my, as a citizen, interest? WWI and WWII stand out. OK. Where else? I heard someone utter Afghanistan, though upon close inspection between the poppies, the resurgence of the Taliban, and with Osama running around there, I don't see how I'm any safer. Any where else? In the rest of that list, the blood of our soldiers was spilled for conquest in imperial interest or for corporate interest. I also disagree that US citizens bear the full weight of responsibility. Look, this country was set up to limit the "mob's" role in selecting leadership. And clearly, since money=speech and money=votes, the table is clearly tilted in favor of those with money; do I have to spell this out? Merely voting or writing your congressperson won't change this situation. The founders did hit on a remedy in the Declaration, though. "So, I can agree with you that powerful special interests and corporations are responsible for sending our troops to Southwest Asia and keeping them there, while at the same time still argue that our soldiers are fighting for you and me, because you and I allow the powerful special interests and corporations to use our military the ways they do......... " You can argue this, but it's a weak argument, since "we" don't have the power to tell the corporations and specials interests to lay off. Our government is structurally designed to be controlled by money and special interests. 1) You have a flawed view of history. Power did not rest in the individual citizen's hands, and eventually end up in the hands of the powerful. No. It started in the hands of the powerful, and over time, the powerful ceded some authority to the individual citizen. So, we did not "give" special interests power to run our government, they already had it! 2) Take responsibility for my role! How laughable! Aside from fomenting a treasonous overthrow of the government, what do you suggest can be done? I mean real solutions. Maybe I am misreading you again, but your attitude is pretty flippant, here. Like I am Dorothy, and all I've had to do was click my heels three times and the special interests will be gone. 3) And if we have so much power, explain the paring down of our so-called liberties. "Additionally, you disrespected all soldiers and demonstrated a lack of practical wisdom and good taste when you wrote "anyone who signs up today is either a fool, bloodthirsty, or desperate."" I was not talking about the academies, but enlisted men. This clarification is as far as I'll go in retracting: 'Anyone who enlists, today, is either a fool, desperate or bloodthirsty.' That's why they've had to let in so many felons. And why we've been hearing about so many sadist acts and murders over there committed by our own troops. "At the end of the day, your right to speak lowly of your U.S. soldiers, your right to be an unsound hypocrite by speaking lowly of the U.S. soldiers who walk your political economic talk, your right to get your political economic relationship to the U.S. Military and our Southwest Asia wars so very wrong, and your right to believe there is a single profession even remotely as noble as that of the U.S. Soldier, are some of the rights I voluntarily wore the uniform to protect, after I had turned down several full-ride scholarship offers from some of the best universities in the nation. " You are confused about me. I. don't. like. America's. imperialism. If being born here makes me a hypocrite, so be it. I refuse to buy the pomp and circumstance you are shoveling here. You plunder the earth at the behest of corporate masters, hand the average citizen a few doubloons, and want to count us as co-conspirators? Get real. I reject your assertions about my hypocrisy. You are the hypocrite, to project blanket honor on people, whether deserved or not. To cast your institution as noble, despite what history and the present say. No matter the act or the cause, the means or the ends, you will stand by your soldiers like the infamous blue wall of silence. I choose to selectively honor good service from our soldiers. I don't assume that because you're wearing a uniform, you have honor or are noble. That has to be earned individually, and has to be part of a good and noble struggle. And I refuse to worship soldiers or troops. So, excuse me if I don't kiss your ring diamond embroidered with the word 'service', without knowing exactly what it was you actually did. This isn't a military dictatorship--yet. EC, in the end, you made your choice. I made mine. I don't purport to deny the ethical inconsistencies in what I do and in my profession. I find unsurprising that you want to wrap both the honorable and infamous about soldiering and the military in your shining flag. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:45:50 AM I think this bears repeating: I choose to selectively honor good service from our soldiers. I don't assume that because you're wearing a uniform, you have honor or are noble. That has to be earned individually, and has to be part of a good and noble struggle. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Anon EMAIL: IP: 208.27.111.125 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:58:18 AM It is emphatically a bad thing that African-Americans are not enlisting to serve in the military. It is delusional to think that these high school students and young adults are making a political statement and taking advantage of "better opportunities." Many of the young adults who historically joined the military, view the military as a way out. Now young African Americans view it as way to death, if death is the end result why not get rich quick or die trying. Why not get involved with a gang and drugs? In their minds a viable road out is not an option. This is a dangerous thing that is not to be celebrated. It is incredibly myopic to celebrate this. Other cultures still prize military service even if they may not agree with the war, they believe that serving one's country is noble. As showcased by the responses to the post, the African-American community as a whole doesn't believe that military service is a good thing. Thus, a young soldier can't take solice in the fact that if (s)he goes to Iraq and dies (s)he will have a heroes death. On the contrary, the brethen will consider the death a waste and the soldier a fool or a dim witted pawn. There are no real outlets out for young African Americans living in poverty when their parents are barely adults and their grandparents are barely forty and nobody has finished high school. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 12:02:22 PM
I don't believe most U.S. citizens are ready to stop killing, or stop asking their soldiers to kill when necessary to achieve our political economic objectives.Priceless..., Seldom have I observed such an easy admission that one's polity IS one's way of life.
If there were a way for the U.S. to get everything it wants from the world without going war from time to time, then I do hope someone would have found it by now.and nothing exceeds the nobility of volunteering to kill for what you want..., straight gangsta - go head brah...,
And most of them just don't want to deal with the stuff that happens when powerful nations stop negotiating, because that's walking time--the time when tough-talking philosophers are asked to step aside.E.C., I turned down a CIA commission after graduating from the institute. my sole interest and motivation for enjoining the application process was to determine how I stacked up against the PAS (Personality Assessment System) The very thought of "putting in work" at the behest of this organization was morally repugnant to me - even back then when I was young and full of cum. With the benefit of hindsight, I have no regrets about the choices made on my behalf by the higher angel of conscience. I don't even regret the loss of potential access and exposure that declining such an offer entailed. I've been around and seen everything I've ever wanted to see without sacrificing either my autonomy or personal integrity. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.177.116 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 12:13:33 PM Uhhhhh... Aaron - So the ONLY opportunity open to young poor black kids is... The Military? And if they don't sign up they are limited solely to a life of criminality. You wear hip boots when you spew tht amount of fecal matter? Which raises the question of... After 6 years of your rethugly buddies being in control of the White House. Congress, and Judicial... Why is the only way out for a poor minority kid to serve and die in your Army? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 12:49:06 PM "You must understand something. War will happen. When it begins, even the best case scenarios can get ugly. People will probably die. " No. Wars do not just "happen" like the weather. There are reasons and machinations behind every conflict. You are again mystifying things related to military. Why? The last few wars involving US troops (that we know about) were initiated by the US government. They didn't just happen. In the present conflict in Iraq, it is now clear why we invaded that country and built several permanent bases there. It starts with an "o" and is the same reason we overthrew the secular parliamentary government of Iran 50 years ago. "If there were a way for the U.S. to get everything it wants from the world without going war from time to time, then I do hope someone would have found it by now. However, I am not yet convinced that we could get everything we want in the international political economic realm, without going to war from time to time." You have truly embraced the narrative of conquest and of a globalized manifest destiny. I have the chorus of Wynton Marselis' "Super Capitalism" running through my head. How about this: we shouldn't always get everything we want. Maybe living in a global environment means compromising with others. "I don't believe most U.S. citizens are ready to stop killing, or stop asking their soldiers to kill when necessary to achieve our political economic objectives." So? Were you trained to be a leader or not? Most US citizens think the jigaboos in New Orleans deserved to be drowned like rats. I thought nobility meant adhering to a nominal system of ethics. You are sounding more like a mercenary, willing to draw your pistol at any whim of those you claim to serve. "Sure many U.S. citizens think they are against the use of the political economic tool of military war; however, most of them have just failed to connect all the political economic dots. Most of them just don't want to admit they are complicit in acts that make them uneasy while they philosophize and moralize in their comfortable armchairs. " 'You want me on that wall! You NEED me on that wall!' Again, with the doubloons. So, it's either 'renounce your citizenship' or 'shutup and let me drive'? What a spurious choice. I have connected the dots, and the more I learn, the more disgusted I am. Just because you have chosen to give in to the 'dark side', don't put that choice on everyone else. You are stretching to assert that I or any other american are inherently complicit in the dark acts of the military. Does that make it easier to pull the trigger or press the button? "And most of them just don't want to deal with the stuff that happens when powerful nations stop negotiating, because that's walking time--the time when tough-talking philosophers are asked to step aside." You mean when the US stops negotiating. And how macho you sound! Might makes right, and since you hold the pistol, all honor goes to you! What we have here, is not just a difference of opinion, but a clear difference in ideology. Your attitude is exactly what the Cheneys, Rumsfelds, PNAC folks, and Halliburtons of the country desire in our military. Congrats on that. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: spike the cat EMAIL: IP: 81.208.36.89 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 01:19:11 PM E.C. said: "However, your good question has nothing to do with how noble the profession of soldier is. Indeed, most of the anti-war arguments in this thread have nothing to do with how noble the profession of soldier is." E.C., I beg to differ. As as I said before, I don't think you can divorce the warrior from the war. The crux of the argument is therefore to discuss what war really represents (the good the bad and the ugly) because with out war (or the threat of it) there cannot be soldiers. ken said: The people here who are discounting your service do not wish to live anywhere else in the world, and I believe if it wasn't for our military there wishes would be different. Hmm, I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say that! I guess I should grow a penis and "go back to Africa,"--not necesarily in that order, mind you; because in America, it seems that you can't criticize anything without calling into question your right to exist. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 01:20:34 PM
I thought nobility meant adhering to a nominal system of ethics. You are sounding more like a mercenary, willing to draw your pistol at any whim of those you claim to serve.ROTFLMBAO!!! Keto, I strongly suspect Mr. Hopkins has never drawn a pistol outside a practice range in his entire impassioned young life - air force service included. anyway..., all this John Wayne hypermacho posturing would be very, very amusing if it weren't for the fact that this fetishistic sock puppetry emanates from the hand of indoctrination by deadly serious upperclass sadists. I strongly suspect that if this interrogatory persists, we'll soon be exacting quite a few additional unintended disclosures. but that's the way it go when you decide to put on a mask and front. Hopefully it won't veer over into the far reaches of uninformed military fetishism plumbed by some of the conservative armchair warrior cheerleaders..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 01:32:30 PM "Its clear our military has not only allowed us to prosper, but also Europe, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Canada, and many others. And all these countries because of their prosperity have helped us to prosper even more. It was the protection of our military that allowed these countries to expand economically. And we and especially our military should feel good about that." Yes/No. First of all it was for self-interest; and you are talking about a time, within the context of the Cold War. You are right the military gave us some of our greatest technology. Help the nations you stated. But at the same time it did nothing for Haiti or any country with a black population. And the stories of how this military trained some of the worst dictators on this planet, should make us a little bit more humble. Some things can start out as a blessing and end as a curse. For in the long run, wars have helped to pollute the world as we see now. The use of wars has reached an atrophy state. http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 68.25.241.48 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 01:37:33 PM "Hmm, I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say that! I guess I should grow a penis and "go back to Africa,"--not necesarily in that order, mind you; because in America, it seems that you can't criticize anything without calling into question your right to exist" Not really sure how you got that from my statement. Maybe you should reread it. The military has shaped and comforted your way of life to the point that you do not want to live anywhere else. How is this questioning your right to exist? To also conclude that if it wasn't for our military you would probably not like the life you have now as much and wish you could live somewhere else; why is this in invitiation to grow a penis and move to Africa. I don't know maybe you were just looking for a way to use this "cute" phrase. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Makheru EMAIL: IP: 68.222.159.139 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 01:41:31 PM Anon, since you are obviously disappointed that many young Afrikan Americans are not choosing to become cannon-fodder for US imperialism, take solace in the fact that Afrikan Americans are still nearly 25% of US Army personnel. Afrikan Americans account for 12.2% of combat deaths, which mirrors our percentage of the US population. I suppose that is not enough. [As showcased by the responses to the post, the African-American community as a whole doesn't believe that military service is a good thing.] –Anon Wrong! The Afrikan American community does not support a white supremacist war of aggression in Iraq. Makheru ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 01:42:56 PM
Hmm, I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say that! I guess I should grow a penis and "go back to Africa,"--not necesarily in that order, mind you; because in America, it seems that you can't criticize anything without calling into question your right to exist.henceforth be cursed as Spike the maleficient Cat! Now keep silent evil wench!!! We are delving into the deepest reaches of sacred mantalk* upon this thread. Do not attempt to taint these holy mysteries with your vile feminine cunning..., (^; *(lotta talk about donning uniforms and brotherhood and sweaty mens and stuff...,) ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 01:46:11 PM "The military has shaped and comforted your way of life to the point that you do not want to live anywhere else." That is a HUGE assumption. There are many other locales (including some countries in Africa) that would do just as well. And before you counter "well, leave then!", I have to say, it's not out of the question, for me at least. Katrina did alot to change my formally optimistic view of american progressivism. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 01:52:32 PM spike the cat ROTFLMBAO!!! That is a gem ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 01:58:25 PM
Should Black Folks Die In Iraq, Too?What's the mission? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: LFT EMAIL: IP: 138.163.0.44 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 02:05:20 PM I find unsurprising that you want to wrap both the honorable and infamous about soldiering and the military in your shining flag. That it is "your" flag rather than "our" flag says it all. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 68.25.241.48 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 02:05:32 PM keto, I am not asking anyone to leave, and I knew you were in the thread here, and can remember having a discussion on China's freedom being comparable to ours, so I understood not all feel they would rather be in this country. But most of the people in this country are thankful to be here. As for your formally optimistic view of progressivism, I would be surprised if we are using this word the same way, but I agree with you. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 02:10:09 PM "That it is "your" flag rather than "our" flag says it all." No it doesn't. If you want to call me a traitor, like Bush does to folks who dissent, then come right out and do so. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 02:18:05 PM "I am not asking anyone to leave, and I knew you were in the thread here, and can remember having a discussion on China's freedom being comparable to ours, so I understood not all feel they would rather be in this country. But most of the people in this country are thankful to be here." It's not about being thankful (to whom?) about being born here. Your assertion was that there is no other desireable place to live. To people who are completely ignorant to the rest of the world, that is true, I guess. Malcolm X talked about 'white's disease', the condition that led many of our people to believe we can't get along without the white man. Well, I would say that today, many of us have the similar strain of "West's disease", in that we think we can't get along outside of the US. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 02:18:59 PM "I am not asking anyone to leave, and I knew you were in the thread here, and can remember having a discussion on China's freedom being comparable to ours, so I understood not all feel they would rather be in this country. But most of the people in this country are thankful to be here." It's not about being thankful (to whom?) about being born here. Your assertion was that there is no other desireable place to live. To people who are completely ignorant to the rest of the world, that is true, I guess. Malcolm X talked about 'white's disease', the condition that led many of our people to believe we can't get along without the white man. Well, I would say that today, many of us have the similar strain of "West's disease", in that we think we can't get along outside of the US. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 02:28:15 PM Supreme Conservative: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural Keto. You are fulfilling your destiny. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the dark side of the Force. ..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 68.25.241.48 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 02:45:27 PM "It's not about being thankful (to whom?) about being born here." Now who is being assumptive? First thank your mother for allowing you to get out of her womb alive. Then those who believe in God give him thanks. After that I would thank the people who went before me to make this country what it is. I can do this by knowing our history (good and bad) and teaching it to my children. I can also show my thankfulness volunteering, voting, helping my fellow citizens, being a good mentor for others. Basically make a personal investment in this country and call it mine. This would be my idea of thankfulness. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 03:00:39 PM I wasn't being assumptive, thus the question. Mom? Check. Dad? Check. Higher power? Check. People who went before...? Check. Volunteer, vote, help, mentor? Check. Investment (personal, expertise, etc) in this country? Check. OK. At least we're aligned on these. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 03:00:55 PM I wonder if we could obtain reparations for the moral absolution that "other" folks appear to be seeking for their catastrophic political and military blunder(s) and the profound errors of cognition upon which said blunder(s) depend? In all my years I've never heard such strenuous pronouncements of "we" as what I've heard here lately emanating from this element.., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 03:03:46 PM don't hold your breath waiting for an answer to your question brah..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 03:53:48 PM I remember who you're sposed to thank...., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 68.25.241.48 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 03:54:12 PM "OK. At least we're aligned on these." Perfect. Call it mine? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: spike the cat EMAIL: IP: 81.208.36.89 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 04:06:51 PM To Ken: "The military has shaped and comforted your way of life to the point that you do not want to live anywhere else. How is this questioning your right to exist?" I can only speak for myself, but if I choose to live in the country of my birth, as is my right as an American citizen, perhaps it is because I was raised in America, have family in America and thus have a stake in America. And if I do believe that America is really THE best place to live, at least I recognize the role of US foreign and corporate policy (backed by our military) that have stifled the self determination of other nations to grow and to develop on their own as America was allowed to do. This is a bit different from your take on the military's role in things. And I must tell you also, that right now I happen to not be living in America! Er, I've given up for the time being on that other part :) Anyway, to me, it makes no difference for the military/war argument "where I or others want to live" when expressing valid criticisms of American lifestyle, policy, military, etc. Usually, this type of reasoning is meant to shut people down...perhaps not what you implied, but inferred nonetheless. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: spike the cat EMAIL: IP: 81.208.36.89 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 05:25:55 PM http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070504/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/battlefield_ethics "In the first internal military study of battlefield ethics in Iraq, officials said Friday they also found that only a third of Marines and roughly half of soldiers said they believed that noncombatants should be treated with dignity." ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 15.227.217.75 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 05:36:58 PM More alarming from the same study: "A new Pentagon survey of troops in Iraq found that only 40 percent of Marines and 55 percent of Army soldiers would report a member of their unit for killing or wounding an innocent civilian. " ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.163.229 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/04/2007 07:26:46 PM Whew! 1) cnulan: You ambiguously challenged the soundness of my argument's premises, and then left me hanging in your May 4, 2007 10:07 AM post. And, you just ignored my accusations that your arguments were fallacious. I was unable to chew on the stuff you gave me today. I will admit, however, your insults and bad assumptions about what I have done were interesting, if humorous, argumentative techniques. The last word between us in this thread shall be yours if you choose. I'll leave this thread alone after this comment. Perhaps this is where we differ with respect to our social and political philosophies or assumptions: I believe that U.S. citizens, combined, have more power than special interests and corporations; however, I also believe too many U.S. citizens have allowed themselves to feel disconnected, helpless, or powerless. Too many believe they just don't have enough power to really make a difference. I don't let them or myself off the hook though. Perhaps I am too stupid or too arrogant to feel disconnected, powerless, or helpless. I never felt that way. I never want to feel that way. What will it take to change things for the better, whatever we believe "better" would entail? Wealth, power, and prestige. That's how the game is played these days. That might be how its always been played. Those with the most wealth, power, and prestige get to influence things more than those with the least wealth, power, and prestige. Personally, I don't like the way the wealth, power, and prestige awards are unmeritocratically and unjustly distributed in this game. However, disliking the current game, or fretting over the state of world we live in, or disagreeing on an ideological or philosophical level with the power elite we have allowed to rule the world, won't change the game or the world. I tried that method in philosophy classes; it just wouldn't work for me. Philosophers may not like this world, or the powerful people who influence it much more than they do, but until philosophers go out in the world and take much more wealth, power, and prestige, powerful people will tell the philosophers to sit down and shut up when talking time stops and walking time begins. This frustrating, yet beneficial (for me at least), conversation reminded me of how I used to argue as a young teen before I learned formal logic and informal logic. Friends and I would go at it; we would spew our fallacies left and right. However, at this stage of the argument, when one side failed the convince the other side and no further progress would be made, we wouldn't end it by saying, "let's agree to disagree." That's how I prefer to end these types of stalled blog arguments these days. Often, we would just start insulting one another, calling one another names, trying to provoke one another to act stupidly. The best insulter would win the debate. Occasionally, we would fight, and the winner of the fight would be the winner of the debate. Yet, there were times when one or both arguers didn't really want to fight. One or both knew who the winner of the fight would probably be if there were a brawl. In times like those, we would say something like "but can you beat my ass?" or we might say "let's play big bank take little bank then." I know that's dumb and childish, but that's what we did. :) The U.S., our country, is one of those countries that prefers to end negotiations, especially ones during which our international opponents refuse to concede to our often humiliating or pauperizing demands, in a way very similar to the way some of my friends and I used to end our stalled debates. You and I should probably just keep striving for more wealth, power, and prestige so we could help the world's nations play nice and convince many more of our fellow citizens to be less greedy or less unjust. 2) keto and spike the cat: Our dialogue on this issue is no longer fruitful; I don't think we are helping one another much at this stage. Perhaps my comments didn’t help you whatsoever. And that’s okay. I'm going to call it a day here. I'll still read the comment(s) you might write in response to this one. I just won't respond. 3) All: This thread touched on some issues about which I am quite passionate (as cnulan rightly observed). Thank you all for your opinions and arguments. I respect them all. I respect you all. And, I learned some new things. Please accept my sincere apology if any of my comments offended or insulted you. I did not want to offend or insult anyone. I did not wish to be tasteless or unbecoming. I look forward to our future Blackprof.com conversations. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/04/2007 08:11:57 PM
You ambiguously challenged the soundness of my argument's premises, and then left me hanging in your May 4, 2007 10:07 AM post.Your Argument: The U.S. soldier fights the wars U.S. citizens ask him or her to fight. U.S. citizens choose whether to use the political economic tool of military war. My Response: This is a lie, and a farcical one at that. By the time Keto, Maleficent, CMoney, Mak, and BT were done with all the heavy lifting, wasn't nothin left for me to do but kick back on this thread like Flava Flav clowning on stage and hollaring "YEEAH BOIEEE!!!!"
I will admit, however, your insults and bad assumptions about what I have done were interesting, if humorous, argumentative techniques.Don't be insulted by my assumption that guntoting hasn't figured large in your career. If you've read anything else "insulting" between the lines, well..., that's between you and the voices in your head brah.., You've read enough of my commentary to know that I'm really not one to bite my tongue. (or hold my keystrokes...,)
You and I should probably just keep striving for more wealth, power, and prestige so we could help the world's nations play nice and convince many more of our fellow citizens to be less greedy or less unjust.cream, get the money, dollar dollar bill y'all... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 15.251.169.69 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 08:50:57 PM EC, I respect your opinion and you, from what I have read of your posts in this forum. Disagreement on even strongly held views is not taken personally by me. In every statement I have made here, I have felt strongly about. It was definitely not my aim to be shocking or tasteless. Also, good luck on your legal ambitions. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 15.251.169.69 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 09:04:02 PM "Wealth, power, and prestige. That's how the game is played these days......" Ah hah!!! This paragraph is where we agree. And that is what I am trying to gain. Don't confuse my strong views with a "hippie" or apathetic mentality towards changing things. I am a student of strategy, and look at achieving my aims with a cold strategist's eye. I don't pretend to be noble, and from my study of military history and strategy, don't consider the best military minds all that noble either. Effective, but not noble. Nobility is for politicians and stage acts. Lastly, my observation that corporations control our government and my location inside of a corporation is not a coincidence. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Makheru EMAIL: IP: 68.222.159.139 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 10:21:51 PM [Although, you are against aiding Iraq, I feel that one day they will also join the group of countries who have prospered from our military strength, if we can see this through.]--Ken Reverend, have you been imbibing the Holy Wine today? Just teasing Ken, but my-oh-my how badly things have gone since “Mission Accomplished.” Tom Englehardt says what started as Top Gun has become the Texas Chainsaw Massacre (http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=191294): “ Four years later, U.S. prisons, one of the few reconstruction success stories in Iraq, are chock-a-block full, holding 18,000 or more Iraqis in what are essentially terrorist-producing factories; Iraq has the worst refugee problem (internal and external) on the planet with perhaps 4 million people in a population of 25 million already displaced from their homes (202 of whom were admitted to the United States in 2006); the Iraqi government inside the Green Zone does not fully control a single province of the country, while its legislators are planning to take a two-month summer "vacation"; a State Department report on terrorism just released shows a rise of 25% in terrorist attacks globally, and 45% of these attacks were in Iraq; 80% of Iraqis oppose the U.S. presence in their country; 64% of Americans now want a timetable for a 2008 withdrawal; and the President's approval rating fell to its lowest point, 28%, in the most recent Harris poll, which had the Vice President at a similarly record-setting 25%.” I have a prediction for you Reverend. When the history of America is written the demarcation for the decline of America as we know it will be the presidency of George W. Bush, and Iraq will be the albatross around this country’s neck. [You have truly embraced the narrative of conquest and of a globalized manifest destiny. I have the chorus of Wynton Marselis' "Super Capitalism" running through my head. How about this: we shouldn't always get everything we want. Maybe living in a global environment means compromising with others.]—Keto That’s about as cogent as it gets. Makheru ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 70.13.222.242 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 05:17:00 PM Makheru, Haven't talked to you for awhile. Of course you and me differ on this subject. Its true "mission accomplished" was a milestone much like whenever any of our foes surrender. Take for instance when Germany surrendered, the mission of winning the war was accomplished. But because of the cold war we couldn't let the country sit in a disorganized heap waiting for it to be taken into communism. So we left 200,000 troops after the war and trained German police. The war ended in 1945 and the first national elections in the combined American, British, and French zones did not take place until 1949. West Germany did not gain full sovereinty until 1955, that's 10 years after the mission was accomplished. In Japan, after the mission was accomplished, with hardly any resistance from the Japan citizens we still had between 200 and 300 thousand troops there. Japan gained full sovereinty in 1953, seven years after mission accomplished. Do you think there was still people dying in any of these countries during the rebuilding phase? Haiti was another attempt at nation rebuilding, it failed. Here is how the RAND report interpreted the failure: "President Clinton sent in American troops who joined with smaller forces from other countries. They established order, abolished the Haitian army, trained a national police force, and oversaw elections. An unsupportive Republican-controlled Congress pressed President Clinton, a Democrat, to set a deadline for removing American troops. He removed troops in 1996 before economic and democratic reforms had taken root." I don't fault Clinton for this, its hard to go against what's popular and do what is right. He was up for reelection. I think its a shame the republicans traded historical perspective for partisanship and did not allow Haiti a way out of their mess. I saw your prediction and I think you could be right. Our present inability to see things through together will be an albatross around [our] necks. Certainly, it is an invitation to our enemies to test our resolve. I am pretty sure they see our limits within reach. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/05/2007 06:15:17 PM Once upon a time the Lone Ranger & Tonto were riding through a canyon, when suddenly they were surrounded on all sides by Indian warriors on horses dressed for battle. Tonto, the Lone Ranger’s faithful Indian guide, turns to the masked man and asks: "What we do, Kimosabe?" The Lone Ranger pulls his trusty steed, Silver, to the east to find a hidden pass only to find more Apaches in war paint. Tonto asks again: "What we do, Kimosabe?" This time they head south, but again more warriors. To the north and once again their escape is blocked. At last the Lone Ranger turns to Tonto, "What are we going to do?" Tonto answers, "What do you mean 'we,' paleface?" ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 07:39:13 PM Comparing Iraq to the occupations of WWII, and Haiti, is flawed on so many levels. It evinces a Cliff's Notes understanding/appreciation of history, lacking nuance and a basic understanding of the details. I will rattle off a couple of critical differences between W's Iraq Conflict & the WWII occupations, and can't really do this contrast justice: 1) Planning. Possibly the biggest contrast. The military campaigns and subsequent occupations were planned to a high level of detail years in advance. In war, nothing ever perfectly follows the script, but that didn't stop the allies in preparing for occupations with detail that put the current deciders to shame. 2) Guerilla War. This is a full blown gorilla war, like the way Vietnam was fought (very different in other ways from 'nam). From the perspectives of the denizens of what we call Iraq, this is also a "civil war", for lack of a better word, because the state of Iraq is an amalgam pieced together by the British years ago out of a few former provinces of the Ottoman empire. Which leads to the next point: 3) Lack of Insurgency. The Japanese and the Germans had strong, unified nation states (whose authority their citizens acknowledged), that officially declared war and officially surrendered. The citizens of those nations overwhelmingly accepted the surrender of their governments. That's why our GIs could stroll around without fear of death or injury. I don't think we lost any lives during those occupations due to insurgency (since there were no insurgencies). Our leadership was also prudent enough (though this was a no-brainer) to not disband the civil and military agencies of those nations. 4) Profiteering. The Iraq conflict is championed by contractors, weapons firms, and oil companies, in addition to the ideologues. In contrast, WWII was literally for all the marbles, and war profiteering was prohibited and prosecuted, from what I understand. Again, just a few thoughts that don't do the full contrast of these conflicts justice. As far as Haiti, that's even more far fetched of a comparison. Clinton's adventure there was but a postscript on the decades--no---centuries of conflict on that island. We have had varying roles, directly and indirectly, on that island, and it's a long and complex story. Did you know for instance, we occupied Haiti from 1915-1934, with a figurehead in place? Point being, Aristide is just a sub-section in a long history of failed and flawed intervention down there. And having close to nothing in common with Iraq. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 07:52:22 PM You know, I left out the something more important than Planning: Commitment & Sacrifice. When the biggest sacrifice Bush asks of us is to 'shop more', what can you say? And if we really wanted to control Iraq, we would conscript a few hundred thousand men (non-felons) and send them to every corner of that land, with a clear strategy and plan. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 09:31:39 PM I think you are helping making my point. Certainly to have success in this more time is needed. My other point, our ability to see an action through to the end is about done as a nation. We only advocate for partisan reasons, not for the good of the country. Take for instance your claim this is a full blown gorilla war, my beleif is that is a partisan distorted statement. Since the conflict began we have a little under 70000 civilian deaths. That's a lot, but not as much as Sadaam in power. In four years of conflict this is about 65 deaths per 100000. (pop. about 27000000)Now that is more than our worst city which is Baltimore at 42 deaths per 100000; but Iraq came from not having a government and no police to beginnings of a government. Baltimore has many more advantages than this. If this is a full grown gorilla conflict with no way to win, how close are we to the tipping point in Baltimore. When should we consider Baltimore lost to the insurgency? I only say this, because like republicans who worked Clinton over when he bombed Sadaam in 1998 (By the way I think you would take interest in his speech: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html) is the same thing the democrats are doing now. We are not thinking what is good for the country anymore, but only how to get one party or another back in power at any cost. This time the democrats need things to go badly for our country in Iraq to insure their position of power in the elections. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 10:20:57 PM http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html For some reason the whole address didn't make it. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 01:50:10 AM "Take for instance your claim this is a full blown gorilla war, my beleif is that is a partisan distorted statement." Why not? Why is this not a guerrilla war? (Here's a definition to get you started: Guerrilla warfare (also spelled guerilla) is a method of unconventional combat by which small groups of combatants attempt to use mobile and surprise tactics (ambushes, raids, etc) to defeat a foe, often a larger, less mobile, army.) How does this not fit the insurgent's conflict with the US forces? You are dead wrong that people are opposing US involvement in Iraq for partisan reasons. Maybe that is why you are for it, but to say that is why I oppose it is unjustified. It seems to me that you think pointing out the obvious is partison. "Certainly to have success in this more time is needed. My other point, our ability to see an action through to the end is about done as a nation." My points in the above post, are that the situation for the Japan and Germany occupations were completely different. Thus, the remedies involved in those exercises, including "more time", don't fit the current crisis. "Since the conflict began we have a little under 70000 civilian deaths. " The highest estimate of combatant and civilian deaths is over 600k (done by a nonpartisan academic group at Princeton, I think). Now, you may not subscribe to this estimate, but 70k is way too low; those are the *reported* deaths from various media outlets. Surely you realize the media does not have the resources to report/document every death in the country? "That's a lot, but not as much as Sadaam in power." Saddam ruled for a few decades. But post US-invasion is much worse than anything Saddam ever cooked up. I remind you to reread what someone posted above:"Four years later, U.S. prisons, one of the few reconstruction success stories in Iraq, are chock-a-block full, holding 18,000 or more Iraqis in what are essentially terrorist-producing factories; Iraq has the worst refugee problem (internal and external) on the planet with perhaps 4 million people in a population of 25 million already displaced from their homes (202 of whom were admitted to the United States in 2006); the Iraqi government inside the Green Zone does not fully control a single province of the country, while its legislators are planning to take a two-month summer "vacation"; a State Department report on terrorism just released shows a rise of 25% in terrorist attacks globally, and 45% of these attacks were in Iraq; 80% of Iraqis oppose the U.S. presence in their country". When did anything like this happen under Saddam? "In four years of conflict this is about 65 deaths per 100000. (pop. about 27000000)Now that is more than our worst city which is Baltimore at 42 deaths per 100000; but Iraq came from not having a government and no police to beginnings of a government. Baltimore has many more advantages than this. If this is a full grown gorilla conflict with no way to win, how close are we to the tipping point in Baltimore. When should we consider Baltimore lost to the insurgency?" For you to compare Baltimore to Iraq is laughable!!!!! It's not even worth it to dissect it. Do you listen, watch or read the news?!? Every week--Every week there is a Virginia Tech-sized massacre. I've lived near Baltimore, and I don't remember that in the roughest of neighborhoods there. Where do you get your information about Iraq? As of May, there were about 600 dead due to the civil war and insurgent/US conflict---and those are only the reported deaths. A sampling of the carnage (from http://www.iraqbodycount.org/): "This week the dead exceeded 600. Among the week’s attacks, another major one, killing over 50 civilians, bringing the year’s total to 14: -16 January, 70 mainly students and staff, Mustansiriya University, Baghdad -22 January, 88 killed by bombs at Baghdad market -1 February, 73 killed by suicide bombers in Hilla -3 February, 137 killed by a suicide bomber in a lorry full of explosives, Baghdad -12 February, 90 killed by explosions in Shorja market, Baghdad -18 February, 62 killed by bombs at second-hand market, Baghdad -24 February, 56 killed by truck bomb outside mosque, Habaniya. -6 March, 120 pilgrims killed by suicide bombers, Hilla -27 March, 152 killed by truck bomb, Tal Afar -28 March, 70 shot dead in reprisals, Tal Afar -29 March, 82 killed by suicide bombers at market in Baghdad 53 killed by car bombs, Khalis -18 April, 140-195 killed by suicide truck bomber in Sadriya, Baghdad -28 April, 75 killed by suicide car bomber in Karbala" *This* reminds you of Baltimore? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 01:56:46 AM "This time the democrats need things to go badly for our country in Iraq to insure their position of power in the elections." Things are not bad in Iraq now? Please pass the pipe, my friend. And you like that conflict so much, I hear they have raised the enlistment age to 42. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/06/2007 07:20:05 AM A fundamentalist "christian" Taliban is running the Department of Defense..., The whole U.S. military, up and down the chain of command, is coming to be dominated by members of a small, characteristically intolerant sliver of Christianity who truly regard themselves as Christian soldiers, on a God-appointed mission to harvest souls and battle evil. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/06/2007 07:41:37 AM War and "Christian Right" Fundamentalism
This review will cover the essence and flavor of American Fascists beginning with some background on the Christian right, its influence, and danger it poses that Hedges covers in detail. He said he wrote the book out of anger and fear of the fundamentalist Christian Right seeking to establish theocratic dominion over society in America in the name of God and is using the Republican party as their vehicle to do it. He compares the movement's messianic mission to Italian and German fascism of the last century cloaking itself in Christianity and patriotism as their way to gain political power under theocracy's literal meaning from the Greek words "Theos" meaning "God" and "cratein/crasy" meaning to rule.
They're not kidding and neither is the risk they'll gain control of government with some observers in Washington believing they already have it including journalist/commentator Bill Moyers saying "for the first time in our history, ideology and theology hold a monopoly of power in Washington." Some call them "The Christian Mafia" noting they're well-funded by and allied with wealthy, powerful hard right businessmen like beer magnate Joseph Coors and Amway founder Richard DeVos, Sr. Hedges calls them American Fascists, and his powerful book leaves no doubt how great a threat they are to our cherished liberties in a free society now in great jeopardy. Below is an explanation of the Christian Right and fundamentalist movement overall before getting into the book.----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.173.208 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 01:27:59 PM Not sure where the Rev is getting his numbers but the casualty rate as reported by the Baghdad Morgue averages 85 a day in the city. http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=32897 That number alone accounts for over 31,000 deaths in Baghdad alone a year. With a population of 7 million - that's a rate of 443 per 100,000... And those numbers exclude the numbers of people who are "disappeared" which could be several times higher than the numbers found and brought to authorities. There are more people killed in Baghdad per month - than in our top ten cities combined annually. The numbers killed by US troops are likewise being supressed. Many of our weapons systems are designed to fight against armored enemies. As such a 50 cal armor piercing round goes through a brick wall, about like a bb gun goes through tissue paper - and has an effective armor penetrating range of over 2 miles. We have no idea how many incidental civilian casualties our troops are causing when engaged in firefights with any of the 4 different factions who consider us their common enemy. We PROBABLY killed something between 30-40,000 Iraqi civilians during "Shuck and Jive" alone. Current estimates are saying that there are roughly 200,000 Iraqi Civilians killed a year since the 2003 Invasion. And we are still losing. Compared to Germany in WWII - Germany lost 5.5 million soldiers dead, another 8 million wounded, and 2 million civilians out of a population of 60-70 million. The reason the Germans didn't fight anymore... Is there wasn't anyone left. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 03:05:40 PM Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq Min Max 62842 68869 http://iraqbodycount.net/ From Clinotn's speech: "The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world. The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently. The decision to use force is never cost-free. Whenever American forces are placed in harm's way, we risk the loss of life." This decision to go in and end Sadaam's rule in Iraq was a bipartisan decision. I can understand ending our committment if the Iraqis are not putting enough effort into this. And this is now coming under scrutiny, but to quit something that we committed to just because it hasn't gone perfect... is, well whatever, I was going to say typical of us current Americans but what's the point. (long off topic tangent) Currently, we are not the ones killing civilians in the numbers Keto is bringing up. And is anyone on the left appalled at these thugs killing civilians? No, this is just considered a failure of our military. And good insurgent strategy that will be rewarded by our weak will. And if the issue was civilian lives, having our military exit this area would not reduce civilian loss of life. The death and chaos will increase. I think Bush and the other leaders did make a mistake. I can't fault them, you can't look at somebody and know they will change their minds. But for the next leaders there shouldn't be any excuse. We know now, we aren't the previous generation, don't particapate in any conflict unless we are being invaded. Even then as our great wisdom leader for this site tells us its questionable if we will unite. "This time they head south, but again more warriors. To the north and once again their escape is blocked. At last the Lone Ranger turns to Tonto, "What are we going to do?" Tonto answers, "What do you mean 'we,' paleface?" Don't worry nobody is watching this. We'll be ok. Thanks for the discussion, this only started because I said I believe that one day Iraq will join the others as a nation that will prosper because of our military's help. And believe me, I understood when I said this, that this would be received as poorly as winning the cold war on this site. I have got to get back to some chores around here. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 04:44:31 PM may 6 3:05 was me ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 71.59.142.147 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 06:05:29 PM Ken, thanks for the discussion. To move this conversation forward requires a level of analysis and intellectual rigor you are demonstrably not willing to devote to this issue. From the issue of number of casualties, to flawed historical comparisons, to flawed comparisons of Iraq to present-day US inner cities, I fear that there is a superposition of opinion with fact that presents an insurmountable wall. The frustating thing for me is, the information exists in so many non-partisan places. It's clear you only see this issue through a political lens, something of which you've accused some of us. This is not about left or right, republican or democrat (labels which themselves lack nuance). People across the american political spectrum have opposed this war, from strategic and humanitarian reason, which dwarf any beltway political considerations. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.173.208 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 06:10:21 PM Interesting Anon #9889 - The numbers you are reporting vastly differ from the ones advanced by the Iraqi "governmet" as well as the UN. Previous UN human rights reports have included official Iraqi figures on civilian casualties. The last report, issued in January 2007, said that 34,452 civilians were killed and more than 36,000 wounded in 2006. The Pentagon estimated Iraqi Civilian Casualties as a result of US action at 100,000... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html and that was in 2004! Even your link to Iraqbodycount admits that "many if not most Iraqi civilian casualties go unreported". In any event - no amount of "surging" or right wing prevarication is going to make up for the fact... Dumby lost the war. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/06/2007 07:40:01 PM
Even then as our great wisdom leader for this site tells us its questionable if we will unite.you.are.on.your.own. kimosabe..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Makheru EMAIL: IP: 68.222.159.139 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 09:29:19 PM In addition to the information already posted by BT, Keto, and Nulie, comes the news that the Iraqi government has not reported any civilian casualties in 2007. U.N. report and Times data paint grim Iraq picture By Tina Susman, Times Staff Writer 8:27 AM PDT, April 25, 2007 BAGHDAD -- Academics are being assassinated, prisoners are being tortured, women are being murdered by their own families in so-called "honor killings," and civilians continue to be cut down by rampant violence, the United Nations said today in a report painting a grim picture of life in Iraq. The report, which covers from Jan. 1, 2007 through March 31, was most notable for what it did not include: the number of civilian deaths. That's because the Iraqi government refused to release those numbers, the U.N. spokesman, Said Arikat, said as he presented the organization's 10th such summary of the human rights situation in Iraq. However, numbers obtained from various ministries by the Times indicated that already this year, 5,509 civilians had died violently in Baghdad province alone, which includes the capital. The numbers obtained by the Times indicated that civilian deaths, which had been 1,991 in January, dropped to 1,646 in February -- the month the security plan began -- then rose to 1,872 in March. That could be a reflection of what U.S. and Iraqi military officials acknowledge has been a rise in bombings targeting crowded public areas since the crackdown began. The figures also showed that Iraqi police were dying at a far higher rate since the security plan began. In January, 59 police died. The number for February was 132, and it was 165 in March. Police increasingly are being targeted by insurgents who view them as collaborators with the U.S.-backed government. [My other point, our ability to see an action through to the end is about done as a nation]--Ken Ken, are you lamenting the loss of the capacity for manifest destiny? Even a former director of the NSA, Lt. Gen. William Odom, considers the invasion of Iraq to be the “greatest strategic disaster in United States history.” So you are asking Americans to see this “geopolitical fiasco” through to the end? What end is that, the Gates of Hell? To borrow one of Dr. Martin King’s famous phrases, events like the war of aggression in Iraq are the result of an illicit intercourse between injustice (the power structure right) and immorality (the power structure moderate/left). I don’t know if you thought that you were adding some weight to your argument by bringing Slick Willie Clinton into the equation or not, but Slick Willie is nothing more than a political prostitute who participated in his part of this illicit intercourse. In the final analysis the American body politic is going to have to make a decision. As Chalmers Johnson stated, “history tells us that one of the most unstable political combinations is a country – like the United States today – that tries to be a domestic democracy and a foreign imperialist.” Is the body politic willing to accept fascism to maintain the trickle down benefits of imperialism? Time will tell. Makheru ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 12:01:39 AM Keto, "From the issue of number of casualties" I quoted a site that seemed to try hard to be accurate about this. (not right wing either) The truth of the matter the Iraqis are not releasing this figure so nobldy really knows except through other pieced together sources. However the civilian casualties will increase if we leave. So using this as a reason for us to leave to save lives is not a viable argument. "to flawed historical comparisons" Comparing how long it took to get an independent government up and running with a country that we had a war with, seems like a valuable comparison. I agree the world war 2 countries were more manageable. But this shouldn't mean we give less time to have this situation work. "to flawed comparisons of Iraq to present-day US inner cities" I agree we have a police force in place, and a totally functioning government, it was not a fair comparison, the other has people coming in from other countries whose sole purpose is to kill defensless civilians to promote chaos. Good point on your part. "I fear that there is a superposition of opinion with fact that presents an insurmountable wall" Oh. "People across the american political spectrum have opposed this war, from strategic and humanitarian reason, which dwarf any beltway political considerations." The war has already taken place, the leader of that country is dead. A new government has been elected, we are trying to give that government time to be able to defend itself against peoples we consider enemies to the Iraqi population, and us. You are correct, however I don't wish to waste anymore time discussing this. I think the next year will tell us if this will be successful or not. We certainly should see much improvement if ther is going ot be any by then. Mak: "Even a former director of the NSA, Lt. Gen. William Odom, considers the invasion of Iraq to be the “greatest strategic disaster in United States history" Usually history waits to judge things like this. I think I will to. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/07/2007 03:24:49 AM The last argument of fools....,
"If the United States leaves Iraq things will really get bad." This appears to be the last remaining, barely-breathing argument of that vanishing species who still support the god-awful war. The argument implies a deeply-felt concern about the welfare and safety of the Iraqi people. What else could it mean? That the US military can't leave because it's needed to protect the oil bonanza awaiting American oil companies as soon as the Iraqi parliament approves the new written-in-Washington oil law? No, the Bush administration loves the people of Iraq. How much more destruction, killing and torturing do you need to be convinced of that? We can't leave because of the violence. We can't leave until we have assured that peace returns to our dear comrades in Iraq. To better understand this argument, it helps to keep in mind the following about the daily horror that is life in Iraq: It did not exist before the US occupation. The insurgency violence began as, and remains, a reaction to the occupation; like almost all insurgencies in occupied countries -- from the American Revolution to the Vietcong -- it's a fight directed toward getting foreign forces to leave. The next phase was the violence of Iraqis against other Iraqis who worked for or sought employment with anything associated with the occupation regime. Then came retaliatory attacks for these attacks. Followed by retaliatory attacks for the retaliatory attacks.----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Joe EMAIL: IP: 68.217.2.114 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 08:31:15 AM Nearly all native Black people in this country have served in the military or know someone who has served in the military. I can understand the Iraq war disagreement, but the name calling? Some of you should reread your posts. Not good. Black youth should consider all options for themselves, including the military. The military can be dangerous, but many more Black men die on the street. For a lot of Black's the military has been a way to better their life and the life of their family. Ask some. Last point, one thing the U.S. will always have is a large military. You are going to support it financially, in various ways, no matter what. Whites and Hispanics will take advantage of those opportunities. Most of them are not going to die and use veterans benefits to better themselves. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 09:26:20 AM Tonto, Got it, kill those around you, if occupied. Stop when they leave. Hey, this is right out of your playbook isn't it kimosabe? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/07/2007 09:59:36 AM The Moral Sensibility of a Military Recruiter
If asked, would the recruiters explain the findings of the National Intelligence Estimate? Would they tell potential soldiers that this report found that the invasion and occupation of Iraq has made us less safe and has given rise to a new generation of terrorists? More than 3,360 of our troops have died and thousands have suffered debilitating brain injuries and amputations.More than half a million Iraqi civilians have been killed-all because of the lies of the Bush Presidency and its war of terror, packaged and sold to our military, a neutered Congress, and a frightened public as a war "on" terror, packaged and sold so that military recruiters can meet their quotas.----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Makheru EMAIL: IP: 68.222.159.139 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 10:22:59 AM Excellent point Nulie. That’s why, if the truth be told, most Iraqi’s would rather have the order of Hussein’s tyranny, than the chaos of this occupation. This is one of the pitfalls of white supremacist arrogance. “We can’t possibly be wrong.” “Why don’t these people just give up, and go along with our plan.” “We know what’s best for the whole world.” “We are superior!” I see that Sam Brownback and Joe Biden are proposing a partition of Iraq into three states. Many of us said five years ago that as soon as Hussein is overthrown, balkanization is inevitable. They are really scrambling, trying to find an honorable way to lose. Makheru ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/07/2007 10:41:09 AM restating the obvious - from a different angle - and for the umpteenth time, (cause some folks are just r.e.a.l.l.y. slow...,) Black folks - by and large - are not cognitively impaired and consequently will not willingly or knowingly board the stoopid train just because its current occupants are skinnin and grinnin and waving the flag. Who Won in Iraq? Iran Did -- Big Time
A funny thing happened on the floor of the Senate the other day. Somebody asked a serious question: "If the war in Iraq is lost, then who won?"
But let's take the question seriously for a second here: who won in Iraq? To answer it, you have to start with a close-up of the region, then change magnification to look at the world picture. At a regional level the big winner is obvious: Iran.
Iraq is destroyed, and Tehran hasn't lost a single soldier in the process. Our invasion put their natural allies, the Shia, in power; gave their natural enemies, the Iraqi Sunni, a blood-draining feud that will never end; and provided them with a risk-free laboratory to spy on American forces in action. If they feel like trying out a new weapon or tactic to deal with U.S. armor, all they have to do is feed the supplies or diagrams to one of their puppet Shia groups, or even one of the Sunni suicide-commando clans.
All these claims that Iran is helping the insurgents really make my head spin. Of course they're helping. They'd be insane if they weren't. If somebody invades the country next door, any state worth mentioning has to act. If Mexico got invaded by China, you better believe the U.S. would react. We'd lynch any president who didn't.
What really amazes me is how patient Iran has been about it, how quiet and careful. They've covered their tracks carefully and kept their intervention to R&D level: just enough to keep Iraq burning, and patiently test out news IEDs.
But that's the Persian way: behind all the yelling, they're sly, clever people.so lone ranger, and any other disgruntled passengers along for the special needs ride you've booked yourself on, you can stop muttering the curse of Ham under your breath and just accept that we cannot join you on this ride. given that we've told you from day one that you're making a HUGE mistake, and your camp arrogantly ignored this sage advice - we may also be compelled - at this juncture - to mock your nakedness and stupidity each and every time you deny the error of your ways.
This is one of the pitfalls of white supremacist arrogance. “We can’t possibly be wrong.” “Why don’t these people just give up, and go along with our plan.” “We know what’s best for the whole world.” “We are superior!”(you should also realize that your continuing inability to admit error given the full benefit of hindsight is proof that your position, your polity, and perhaps even your person - is unworthy of Black moral, cultural, and political support) ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.173.208 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 01:09:32 PM Geez... Must suck to be a Rethugly nowadays! There is no evidence whatsoever, that short of a Stalin level mass liquidation, that anything we can do militarily will resolve the crisis Dumby and his neo-nit morons created in Iraq. The bankrupt strategy to draw Al Queda into a ground war in Iraq better suited to the strengths our Military will go down in history as the worst tactical decision since the French charged Henry V's longbowmen at Angicort. The Rethuglys have granted the greatest boon in history to our enemies since lining up our Navy in a straight line for Japanese Bombers in WWII Pearl Harbor in allowing the Terrorists to gain political and moral traction, to refinance, recruit, and re-equip... Further, in balkanizing America along religious, political, ethnic, and racial grounds - the Rethuglys have created exactly the kinds of divisions in our own country which plague Iraq and the former Yugoslavia, and threaten long term devolvement of America into balkinization across cultural, ethnic, racial, and religious lines. Indeed, while America's greatest enemy may indeed be radical Islam - the greatest threat to America is Christian-corporate Rethuglanism... Our own American Taliban. It is well past time to get this country back on it's feet. The singular failure of the left is to believe that logic will somehow convince the right out of a position that logic didn’t get the right into in the first place. What we are dealing with is the same sort of reality dysfunction which allowed Germans to believe the smoke and smell of carnage coming from concentration camps was just burning wood for the heating plant. There is no amount of intellectual Prozac which will tear down the 150 foot thick castle wall of rationalizations built around a philosophy designed to reinforce and legitimize the true believer’s basest prejudices. Much like dealing with a rabid Fox staggering across the back yard at high noon towards the children playing in a sandbox – there is no level of bipartisanship that is going to convince that rabid Fox that harming children is bad for the world because the disease has rendered it incapable of dealing with morality… Or logic. If the Fox were sane, it wouldn't be out during the light of day as it's ken are nocturnal hunters. Simply rescuing the children may be gratifying, but it leaves the Fox to stagger into the next yard, and the next to find yet another child victim, creating a moral responsibility for those the Fox injures. Call me a country boy, or an un-rehabilitated liberal – but the best solution may well be spelled Winchester. It’s time to tear this rabid Rethugly beast down, before the cost of tearing it down consumes our children. It’s time to impeach, try in an open court of law, and if convicted… Hang these Rethugly scum for treason… If for no other reason than as an example to those politicians in the future, as a warning against betraying the public trust. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 15.251.169.70 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 01:49:44 PM Great post BT! and: "The singular failure of the left is to believe that logic will somehow convince the right out of a position that logic didn’t get the right into in the first place. " ...an astute observation. Though, sometimes (at least initially) it's hard to tell the difference between plain well-meaning ignorance, and straight-up denial or cognitive dissonance. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/07/2007 03:19:49 PM The scary side of American balkanization...,
These guys are sounding exactly...exactly...like the militia movement prior to the Oklahoma City bombingThat's because they are!! Though the caller was from central Illinois, which is not the epicenter, but definitely a hotbed of rich nutrient media - he represents something very real and just a little ominous. As I see it, the fault lines for American Balkanization haven't really changed that much in 150 years. The Players - Some peak oilers use the term "EarthMarine" to denote various types of para-military groups through out the U.S. The term is a bit confusing so I will go with "Merc" or a shortening of mercenary. Technically mercenaries are illigal in the U.S., but let's call a spade a spade shall we?. These are the numerous private citizens who perform a military or para-military role here in the U.S. and abroad for the U.S. Govt for money. The ill-considered invasion of Iraq put a bunch of these folks in play and in pay. Anybody else also remember Blackwater in NOLA? The Game Board - As goes the south, so goes America. The contemporary south is fiercely independent - some side with Bush et al and some don't, but think of themselves as loyal Americans. The White/Black ratio is about 60/40. There is, however, a dangerous and volatile concentration of capable authoritarians in the south. If there is a tipping point region, it is definitely the south. I see this region becoming a seperate part of anything post collapse. Take almost all of the original rebel states from the Civil War and either keep them together or split them among Blacks and whites. It would depend on what divided Blacks and Whites or unified them against a "common" enemy. Right now, there IS no agreed upon common enemy, and very much that disunites folks politically. Much because the truth has never simply been told about why the U.S. invaded Iraq! The important factor to consider here is Military presence and para-military training schools, and the pool of militarized folk concentrated in this region. Let's see, Georgia has at least five Army bases and the U.S Marshal's training facility at Glynco, GA. Two Air Force Bases and I think two Navy bases and one small Marine base. South Carolina has one Army, three Marine and two Air Force bases. Alabama has two Army and one Air Force. Florida has seven Air Force bases and seven Navy. Mississippi has two Air Force and three Navy basess. North Carolina has two Air Force and three Marine and one Army. Tennessee has one Air Force base and one Navy base. Virginia has one Air Force base and five Army, two Marine and nine Navy bases. Kentucky supposidly neutral back in the 1860's has two Army bases even though Ft. Campbell is mostly in Tennessee. The Department of Energy (DOE) has facilities in SC and TN. The SC one has over 600 highly trained and VERY well armed LE Officers keeping nuclear material safe. Augusta Georgia is home to many as is Ft Gorgon's off post population of retirees and separated vets who have stuck around. Black Water USA is in North Carolina and Triple Canopy and HCT is in Virginia. Check out HCT's web Site and notice what it says on the bottom of the intro page. Will post-collapse troops stay loyal, or hire their services out to the highest bidder, or simply stay and defend their homes? Will they split along racial lines and fight each other? Many live with each other in the same neighborhoods. This may lend itself to more communitarian cohesion. However, many towns are isolated and have a high ratio one way or another, like 70% Black or white. Those pockets merit close scrutiny as they could get ugly quickly. Black and Latino gangs have also been sending members into the Army and Marines to be grunts and come back and teach the rest tactics. So there is a constant export of subject matter expertise out of the military south and into the urban hood, but nowhere near the depth and discipline that is concentrated in the South. Not only do you have these Military bases and personnel concentrated in these areas, but many have the BEST troops on them. Ft Bragg NC 82nd Airborne, Special Forces School along with SF Line Units. Ft Benning GA 75 Ranger Regiment and 3rd Ranger Battalion (BN) and Ranger School. Infantry School. Ft Stewart GA has either 2nd BN or 1st BN of the 75th Ranger Reg. Ft Campbell KY 101st Airborne. Ft Jackson SC and Parris Island SC are major Basic Training bases for the Army and Marines respectively. What this all boils down to is that there are troops trained in every type of warfare that train others to do the same. Special Forces primary mission is to train indigenous people to be guerilla fighters. Get an ex Ranger or Green Beret and they could have them to a higher level with a few more weeks training. Back in 90's a Green Beret started an underground newsletter that was distrusting of the Gov't. These Bulleteers tend to keep it real. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cabrihr EMAIL: IP: 70.94.8.183 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 11:44:08 AM should blacks die in iraq? its apart of war we are american!!!!!!!! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BBTPM EMAIL: j.smith@yahoo.com IP: 202.33.24.132 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 12:02:29 AM I don't have a problem with minorities, in this case Black people serving in the military as long as there is appreciation and adequate recognition for their service. The problem I have, as of late is that the media tends to highlight positive stories when they involve White military members or their families, but Black members are usually highlighted when it involves a negative i.e., crime (Hasan Akbar). Another example, when the media features military members who have returned from a deployment it focuses on White families embracing… and occasionally flashes for a half second on Black families reuniting. In my opinion, I don’t think Black military members are as appreciated and recognized for their service by the American public or media as their White counterparts. Therefore, I feel they should think long and hard before signing up to serve a country that doesn’t consider their service, family, or life as significant as other Americans. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BBTPM EMAIL: j.smith@yahoo.com IP: 202.33.24.132 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 12:14:50 AM “They’ve got me fighting on the frontline, but I'm standing in the back of the line when it comes to getting ahead” – Stevie Wonder ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: stalker EMAIL: IP: 63.99.218.193 URL: DATE: 05/14/2007 10:51:56 PM i don't believe that anybody joins the military thinking they won't have to go to war. everyone that enlists, knows there is that chance. many enlist because it's a chance to have a great carreer, a great education, or simply because they want to be a part of what it takes to keep america free. so should a black man die in iraq? ...should a white man, a mexican, a native american, a jew, an asian, etc. etc? if that man enlisted, or woman, then he bares that cross with honor just as everyone else has. i think war is wrong, but i also understand that sometimes it is necessary. if you don't want to die in iraq...then keep your ass out of the armed forces, because personaly, i wouldn't want anyone covering my ass that wasn't sure why he/she was there. get some, green ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Acanthus EMAIL: plantsmantx@yahoo.com IP: 24.238.187.249 URL: DATE: 05/15/2007 07:01:20 AM Should black folks die in Iraq, too when a fair number of the black people on the "caging lists" drawn up by the RNC and the White House were military people serving in Iraq? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: meka EMAIL: mekaatnu@yahoo.com IP: 68.154.65.123 URL: DATE: 05/19/2007 01:20:05 AM For all those people who dare to be successful and serve their country there is work at the Post Office and Peace Corps; and since "going postal" and "Anti-Americanism" is standard operating procedure you can still encounter action because getting shot ain't out of the question in either case!To those who made something out of themselves in the military more power to you and blessing on your house. I'll be the last to spit in your face. Nevertheless a substantial segment of the Homeless fighting Bush are black veterans denied benefits.Which makes me feel that them killing Arabs is just as futile as killing their own-both come down to profit. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Terrie Campbell EMAIL: tceero@aol.com IP: 205.188.116.11 URL: DATE: 05/31/2007 12:42:14 AM My book is entitled " Harlem and Momma" by Terrie Stinson- Campbell.It is one of the stories on a series of books about my childhood growing up in poverty. My mother was victorious in raising three daughters and one son in Harlem , NYC. She walked by seen and unseen faith... rooted in the promises of God. I value those childhood days and moments.. they were the forces which strenghtened my journey to education and given back to the community. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Terrie Campbell EMAIL: tceero@aol.com IP: 205.188.116.11 URL: DATE: 05/31/2007 12:43:09 AM My book is entitled " Harlem and Momma" by Terrie Stinson- Campbell.It is one of the stories on a series of books about my childhood growing up in poverty. My mother was victorious in raising three daughters and one son in Harlem , NYC. She walked by seen and unseen faith... rooted in the promises of God. I value those childhood days and moments.. they were the forces which strenghtened my journey to education and given back to the community. The book is at Barnes and Nobles..com ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ro286ck EMAIL: new627@gmail.com IP: 83.222.23.227 URL: http://b4382.searchik.info DATE: 07/02/2007 02:11:47 AM m439k ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: zwns kgfce EMAIL: fkqrw@mail.com IP: 70.89.101.117 URL: http://www.nzcpkb.ndrhwo.com DATE: 08/18/2007 10:17:59 AM nutcgafr uvtwkij xhobp smwc tycjofawp wsdgp peqjr ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: zwns kgfce EMAIL: fkqrw@mail.com IP: 58.71.35.206 URL: http://www.nzcpkb.ndrhwo.com DATE: 08/18/2007 10:19:23 AM nutcgafr uvtwkij xhobp smwc tycjofawp wsdgp peqjr ----- PING: TITLE: Motherhood - Free Report Newsletter - Pregnancy URL: http://abortion.motherhood-maternity-pregnancy.com IP: 67.19.241.114 BLOG NAME: Motherhood - Free Report Newsletter - Pregnancy DATE: 07/29/2007 07:16:29 PM Watch out for brand new info on this subject. ----- -------- AUTHOR: dhutchinson TITLE: Obama on "Acting White" and other Black Problems STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 PRIMARY CATEGORY: race CATEGORY: race DATE: 05/03/2007 08:47:36 AM ----- BODY:
[Although I believe the "fair use" doctrine would allow us to post full news articles -- here's a quote and a link]
Obama Reaches Out With Tough Love
Candidate Says Criticism of Black America Reflects Its Private Concerns
By Perry Bacon Jr.
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 3, 2007; A01
Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) is delivering pointed critiques of the African American community as he campaigns for its votes, lamenting that many of his generation are "disenfranchising" themselves because they don't vote, taking rappers to task for their language, and decrying "anti-intellectualism" in the black community, including black children telling peers who get good grades that they are "acting white."
As he travels around the country in his effort to become the nation's first black president, Obama has engaged in an intense competition for black voters -- a crucial Democratic Party constituency that accounts for as much as half the electorate in some key primary states such as South Carolina. But the first-term senator, who has sought to present himself as an agent of change eager to challenge political convention, has taken the unusual route of publicly criticizing his own community.
In a brief interview, Obama said he is simply giving broader exposure to the problems that African Americans discuss with great frankness in private. "It's what we talk about in the barbershops in the South Side of Chicago," Obama said, adding that he talks about these problems more in the black community because they are more pronounced there. "There's an old saying that if America has a cold, we have pneumonia," he said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/02/AR2007050202813_pf.html
----- EXTENDED BODY: ----- EXCERPT: ----- KEYWORDS: ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Darren Hutchinson EMAIL: IP: 75.196.229.62 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 09:17:04 AM I was waiting for this moment. Obama had to show some "complexity" on race in order to run as a Democrat, at least as a centrist, national-office-seeking Democrat. So the article reports that Obama has been "quietly" lamenting problems within the black community. Some commentators have likened this to Clinton's Sista Soulja moment. I am not sure we have enough evidence of this - but the thought entered my mind. On some level, I accept the notion of criticizing certain communities or at least populations of people. No population is beyond reproach. Interestingly, however, we do not see candidates point out white problems. Imagine Hilary for example saying something like "the problem with white people -- and I can say this -- is that we are too greedy and we want to keep disadvantaged groups in their place. Also, we completely fail to recognize our privileges, and we are the ones responsible for electing Bush because people of color voted against him across communities." Now that would be "must see tv"! I imagine Obama would have standing to criticize whites directly as well. After all, he does have a white parent, and, blacks have "shamefully" questioned his racial authenticity due to his biracial status. I would love to see this type of analysis directed toward whites. Certainly blacks are not the only communities with "issues." How about spreading this type of analysis across the spectrum. Hilary could go after women for not seeking public office or supporting women candidates. And while there is no gay candidate, one could easily go to a gay bar and hear lots of internal criticism - just like being in a black barbershop, where Obama claims his internal racial critiques receive airplay on a daily basis. On the barbershop issue: I have spent most of my life in black barbershops, and the political and social discourse in those settings is legendary. A major problem with basing any social vision on this chatter is that the arguments are often grounded completely in anectdote and presented in exaggerated terms. I have never heard individuals discuss the "acting white" drama in a barbershop, but as the Princeton professor stated in the Washington Post article, empircally, black kids are not destroying the educational opportunities of other black children. There are deeper structural problems which explain this. Even if we ban "acting white" from our children's vocabulary, they will still attended underfunded, segregated and inferior schools. I agree with the professor who says this is a very weak and misguided basis for discussing the educational problems of children of color. Furthermore, it does not make much sense to discuss "acting white" outside of a social context. Why exactly do kids view academic success in white terms? Message to Kenneth Clark: bring out the dolls. Also, is it possible that the entire acting white issue is simply a racialized way of calling smart students "geeks"? Some black students said I was acting white during childhood (due to my grades). Most did not. Students of all races mocked the "smart" students [note: anectdote - hence the tentative posture concerning this claim]. We never use the equating of intellect with nerdiness to explain white underachievement. Only black students. Why? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 09:47:40 AM Making these critiques is good politics for Obama. The Black people likely to be offended by these comments don't vote anyway and it makes him look better to a White electorate that may be suspicious of a Black candidate being too "pro-Black". Older African-Americans and higher income African-Americans vote and vote often and they are likely to agree with Obama's criticisms of foul language in hip hop, people who do not participate in the political process and ignorant people who frown upon Blacks that try to improve their lot in life. His comments will strike a chord within the voting Black population. Whites may be fearful that a Black candidate will spend all of his time helping "his people" in much the same way White politicians have done for their own. Obama's criticisms of his own people may help alleviate those fears by demonstrating a detached neutrality on issues of public policy. This may bring some Whites off the fence for Obama. Of course, Obama can only go so far with this. If he comes off as a sell out, he will lose all credibility in the Black community and will become a laughing stock in the White community, much like Clarence Thomas. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: AnnabelleDickson EMAIL: IP: 131.118.39.36 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 10:03:11 AM I was wondering when the talk would happen. You know the "I say this in love, please Lord, let white centrists hear this" talk. There is no doubt the problems he mentions in this article exist in the Black community. They do. I just wonder why now? Why say them now? What does he have to gain by throwing those comments out there....now? The article alludes to no program, no set of programs and no public initiatives he's offering up. Just tough love (& a possible surge in the polls). Well thanks for thinking of me, Barack. I guess our dear Barack needed to show Hillary he can go places and say things she can not when it comes to dealing with a major constituency of the Democratic party and he needed to show white centrists the palms of his hands in case there was any doubt. I believe Barack would like to see the Black community and all blacks in America doing well. I would like that too. These problems need to be solved for the betterment of all. I also happen to believe he's just as willing to play Blacks as any other candidate for his betterment. I'm a small government kind of girl who happens to believe that the government should not raise your family. I also believe that Black folks have been harmed terribly through liberal thinking that says, "It's okay. It's never your fault." ::pat pat stroke stroke:: But to simply say, "Hey, y'all need to do better!" sans a program, push or initiative - a way for them to do better - well it pricks my ears. Neglecting to throw trash from a car window is nice but it doesn't exactly assist people in doing better. I know we need to do better, the folks who need to do better know they need to better - something else is going on and until he starts talking on the campaign trail about that.... he can save his tough love. I grew tired of dog and pony shows longs ago. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: 3D EMAIL: dumanbeing@aol.com IP: 205.188.116.11 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 11:08:34 AM We need to be soulful, or use our "melanin" given common sense on Obama. He is a first generation African-American; father was African [proper], mother was white) and not expect him to be our savior. Obama was the president of the student ABA association at Harvard. Having gone to law school, I know this is not achieved without promises to the white establishment. African-America does not need our 'dirty laundry' served publicly because most of our problems are a legacy result of "A dream deferred." It is not limited to our "ghetto" communities; I have finished my dissertation successfully but I am being held back getting my degree because of exorbitant graduation costs! Obama is a politician, period. We should wait and listen to him copiously because he will soon show his alliance to the "same old thing." He must do so eventually because he owes the Ivy League, the secret societies, just like colon Powell did. We must remember that black folks break through only if they "act" right and Obama never really takes a stance on anything, until now with a negative reference to African-Americans. He is charismatically point then counterpoint. He nullifies any real stance while seeming a super star. He learned this technique in law school. His recent statements do not make us happy but it pleases the white community who intrinsically think we are lazy, ignorance and shiftless. They want to think all of our sufferings are our problems alone. Why didn't he focus on the African-American arbitrary right to vote; that the executive branch can remove this so-called privilege every 20 years? Why didn't he focus on the First Article of the Constitution, although amended, still says that we are property! No, he chose to talk about a band-aid and not the hemorrhage called systemic racism. But, of course, he is just a first generation African-American. His forefathers were not slaves! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 70.12.44.220 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/03/2007 11:10:36 AM A good kwestin;There is no doubt the problems he mentions in this article exist in the Black community. They do. I just wonder why now? Why say them now? What does he have to gain by throwing those comments out there....now?deserves a great answer;
Obama is not playing Magic Negro. That is the powerful yet passive Negro that exists to make the white hero a better man. What Obama offers is more seductive to white folks than self-improvement. He offers rheotorical absolution. Think about it. When Sen. Biden call him "clean," it wasn't a reference to hygiene (were you really stupid enough to think it was?). He used the word it the same way Bush did in demanding a "clean" war supplemental bill. He meant "unencumbered." John Ridley says if Sen. Obama is elected President Black people can no longer say America is racist (and how many other events have passed beyond which America could no longer be called racist?).and right on time P6 brings the science...., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: real EMAIL: IP: 134.186.243.114 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 11:31:48 AM Nessessary political stratagem? Hes sure in the hell not trying to be the next Jackson or Sharpton thats for sure. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Vincent EMAIL: IP: 38.113.90.254 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 11:35:44 AM
I think Obama preemptively chose sides on the Cosby issue before he was queried about it.
Darren,
The anecdote and exaggeration of the Barbershop is the same as Face the Nation and McLaughlin's show. I hear TV pundits do it all day. Would you say the same thing if he cited them? Bill Clinton attempted to address white folks with his commission on racism. Although its sufficiency can be questioned, (as with Obama's) there was an attempt.
Annabelle,
The solutions to black folks' problems are both numerous and well published. Take your pick? This is so much so that saying do better may be sufficient. I do not accept crime as an alternative to poverty when a lot of the criminals are not from squalor. Just because you can do better doesn't mean you are doing badly. We have definitely done better with less. My comments are from observations in my own neighborhood/community. What will we do if no one helps us? What will we do if no one removes the obstacles we encounter? Why wait? What can we do ourselves to improve our situation? What are we willing to do? I know I sound a lot like JFK, but when are we going to realize the solution lies within ourselves? Just like doctors we should vow to do no harm to ourselves while helping at least one person. Let's start there.
----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: nunya EMAIL: queernunya@aol.com IP: 141.211.81.206 URL: http://queerthinker.blogspot.com DATE: 05/03/2007 12:03:53 PM Haha, fair use doctrine. Okay, so...I'm not sure "acting white" is a black "problem" (I'm thinking more like poverty, unemployment, violence, bad schools, low college and graduate school enrollment rates, high incarceration rates, homophobia, health and medical care, etc), nor that blacks get called "white" for making good grades. True enough, blacks are accused of "acting white," just not for that reason...more like for speaking properly, liking to read and maybe even being enthusiastic about academics, as well as having many white friends and things like that. I think, from reading some of Obama's book "Dreams From My Father," that trying to fit in with blacks has been a sore spot for him...and I understand that well. I just don't think it's important enough to put in as much time and energy as he might be because I think it's one of the last reasons why blacks are underachieving in America and, thus, is not a serious campaign problem. As the article kind of suggests, if he's already having problems getting black votes, he's not going to get them going the Bill Cosby route. Black people don't like to be "embarassed in front of whites" or have their "dirty laundry aired." ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 12:15:21 PM Our "dirty laundry" needs to be aired. I'm sick of Black peoples' "if we don't talk about something it doesn't exist" mentality. We have ISSUES and we must stop pretending that they will get better if we don't talk about them around White people. Here's a clue: White people already know about our problems. The only people we are fooling (and hurting) are ourselves with this not airing dirty laundry mentality. If we are "embarrased" by certain aspects of our culture then we need to stop sweeping them under the rug and put a foot in the asses of the people in our community that are causing these problems. We put up with sub standard schools and then speak in hushed tones about kids not wanting to learn. Where do you think they get that mentality from? Their parents who won't even show up at a PTA meeting or never encourage them to read or do their homework or never raise hell at the school board meetings. We cannot keep blaming all of this pathology on White people. They are not raising our kids--we are, or at least should be. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 12:22:12 PM “decrying "anti-intellectualism" in the black community” you got to be out of your f*&^king mind. Anti-intellectualism is an AMERICAN THING what social history has he learned. The problem with our youth is that they copy the worst elements of this “PRAGAMTIC” society and are paying for it. - A country that didn’t know where Nicaragua was when the government was killing folks and creating crack. So Clinton goes to see a retarded prisoner die to appease the right - Now he wants to appease the right by being complicit with the demonizing of our children. Scary times!!!! Sorry for the anger but I told you watch it folks ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: AnnabelleDickson EMAIL: IP: 131.118.39.36 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 12:24:06 PM Let's start there? People have started there. People are starting there. People will continue to start there...that is until we become too Ph.D. heavy in one area of course. O_o Vincent I hear you but even Booker T. had a little help when he dropped his bucket. All problems are not solved through the realization of self worth. There is a point where the realization of self worth butts against and a systematic cancer. I have grown weary of political pulpit declarations void of ideas. If he wants to be a "man for the times" how about coming up with a few original solutions (or ways to implement previous ideas) instead of pimping Blacks for a few votes and a surge in the polls? Unless the man has a cape secretly tucked into the back of his trousers I do not expect him to cure every evil but show me now that you will make hard uncomfortable choices. Show me that my concerns will be addressed. Shoot how about just alluding to it. But wait - he can't do that or he won't be elected! Right. So tell me again who benefits from having a black president and what are those benefits? Because right now I don’t see what I’m getting in exchange for my vote unless it’s the peculiar scent of puppies and ponies. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 12:34:20 PM Yeah but cmoney Start with an overall crtique - like america hates its children. The Baby Boomers couldn't care less about their children's children's world. I am of that generation. White kids are just as dumb never wanted to know about European history no less ours, the rich whites hate the poor whites. then say I am hurt by how this is being acted out in my community. Who are we kidding here. Watch out we are giving the rope to the hangman. In It Couldn't Happen Here -the pres. was white, the next in command was black - for the "negro problem" So we can have a black pres. and next in command a white general - hello ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Tafaraji EMAIL: IP: 205.188.116.11 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 01:14:12 PM I don't mind the "airing of our dirty laundry" so much as I mind the proliferation of half truths and innuendos. This "acting white " phenomenon has been miscast so much lately, and has now become a caricature of its original self. It was never intended to mean that education,success or any other upward mobility be deemed as only white aspirations or appropiate only for white people. It clearly meant, in my circle, that you were "acting white" or "sounding white" (which is different then behaving or speaking correctly)". That distinction was always understood amongst me and my peers. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Darren Hutchinson EMAIL: IP: 75.196.229.62 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 01:44:36 PM I certainly believe that ideology, culture, and politics are all subject to criticism. Often, the "dirty laundry" label is utilized to stifle criticism. I wrote an article on this by the way ("Beyond the Rhetoric of Dirty Laundry" -- published in the Michigan Journal of Race and Law); so I am truly a fan of internal critiques. What bothers me about Obama/Cosby/Spike Lee-esque arguments is the following. 1. When "liberal" black critiques of "black" behavior are decontextualized and divorced from any social and historical context, they mimick conservative arguments which seek to pathologize blacks and blame them for their own subordinate status. Is there a rhetoric called "acting white"? Yes. But where does it come from? Is it because black children need psychotherapy to tell them they are wonderful? Or is it that because we are bombarded by images of black deprivation and white wealth and power on a daily basis, the racialization of academic success is simply part of the status quo? I have not heard Cosby et al. even dare to make an effort to confront this issue from the level of complexity it deserves. 2. Focusing on "black" problems has a dirty way of distorting them and making them appear uniquely black - when they have a broader social manifestation. For example, "acting white" has been used to stigmatize black academic success. But there are equally negative terms such as "geek," "braniac," "smarty-pants," "know-it-all," and "intellectual snob," which stigmatize intellect generally and clearly do not have their roots in black culture. Are black children simply making the same statements about academics that the broader society embraces? If so, why are black children demonized by so-called black leaders for replicating behaviors seen in the larger society? The election and re-election of Bush provides additional support for my claim. "Dubya" ran on the "common man's" platform. He was a self-proclaimed "C" student. Americans found his curious relationship with grammar and diction endearing. They rejected Kerry because he was verbose and elitist (read "intelligent" and taking complex positions on complicated social issues). America has proven its fascination with anti-intellectualism time and time again. Dumb and Dumber, Punked, Dude Where's My Car, and Beavis and Butthead are not iconic features of black culture. 3. Finally, I am frustrated that many of these arguments are often based on anectdotes, rather than on solid empirical findings. THIS seems anti-intellectual to me. For example, I executed a search for about 30 seconds online in response to the Obama article, and found that the latest emprical research seems to contradict Obama's claim concerning the self-disenfranchisement of younger blacks. Young blacks (18-30 years-old), as far as the last two national elections go, have been voting in higher rates than whites! This was especially true in Illinois AND Chicago - Obama's political base. See http://www.eagleton.rutgers.edu/News-Research/NewVoters/Ethnicity.html So, I welcome "internal criticism," but I believe that it should not be immune from critical analysis as well. Those of you who are hostile to the critiques of Obama's statements seem to contradict your own assertion that blacks should be criticized. Isn't that what the people responding to his positions are doing? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Darren Hutchinson EMAIL: IP: 75.196.229.62 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 01:49:01 PM Vincent said: Darren, The anecdote and exaggeration of the Barbershop is the same as Face the Nation and McLaughlin's show. I hear TV pundits do it all day. Would you say the same thing if he cited them? My response: for the reasons you stated, I do not watch or rely upon McLaughlin or Face the Nation. Those shows reflect a serious problem in our culture. Not to mention CNN's fascination with Anna Nicole Smith and Chadra Levy. The news outlets do not care about engaged analysis or facts. The want soundbites, yelling, and showMANship. You can have it. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: fillmore EMAIL: IP: 130.203.161.112 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 02:21:11 PM I agree with Darren Hutchinson. Why are Blacks always under the microscope? I went to an 90% white high school and I know plenty of whites who were criticized for being smart. They were called nerd, geeks, etc... Is that any different from blacks telling other blacks that they're "acting white". The whole, trying to be better than whites in all apsects- morally, behavorially, etc... is a trap. No one groups is ever going to be superior in those terms and its a trap because we become stagnate focusing on ourselves. I feel like that's what a lot of whites want us to do. Afterall, if we're doing that we're not outright criticizing or challenging them. Many white people don't even think about race. They don't even know what it means to be white. Because of segregation many whites will almost never interact with a black person outside of a formal function but even then if it can be avoided it will. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 02:24:48 PM Darren: Good points. I would only say that, as a minority group subject to racism and discrimination rooted in hundreds of years of White supremacy, we cannot afford to have our children wallow in and celebrate ignorance. George Bush is the perfect example. No Black person with his credentials would ever have been admitted to Yale or Harvard. Whites can afford to be stupid or average and still get by pretty well in America. We can't. We don't get the type of affirmative action that White males get--the type where you don't even have to minimally qualify or compete on an even playing field. It is more important for us to fight against the attitude that achievement is a "white thing" because, unfortunately, we still have to be twice as good. As for the acting white phenomenon, it is real and it may well be a Black version of geek bashing. I remember one high school classmate telling me I spoke like "Clark Kent" (of Superman fame). I thought it was funny and didn't even give it a second thought, but it was his way of recognizing that I did not have the same "black accent" that other kids had. A more conformist individual than myself might have thought about affecting a different mode of speech so as not to stand out. But that isn't me and guess what? I'm a lawyer and he is probably still working at the K-Mart where I last saw him. I don't think that makes me any less Black. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 02:42:26 PM Mr. Hutchinson, what does it matter what clinton does? why is it that when anyone brings up self-destructive black pathologies you reply with "well, whites have their pathologies, too"? how is this even a response? should we ignore black problems if those problems exist, in one form or another, in other communities? very silly. anyway, last i checked, whites don't disproportionately fill prisons, don't disproportionately commit violent crime in america, don't frequently have kids out of wedlock, and don't kill each other over trivial things (philadelphia is a warzone right now. black kids are killing other black kids for literally no reason). blacks need to start focusing on what they're doing to each other. forget whites. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: keto EMAIL: IP: 15.251.169.70 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 03:01:12 PM Chauncey, Do you realize how ironic your last post is. You say forget whites, but then proceed to benchmark blacks compared to whites. And when was the last time you checked the stats, and the underlying reasons? Some of your assertions about what whites don't do are questionable. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Craka Smasha EMAIL: IP: 64.160.149.254 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 03:06:18 PM Another ignorant well-intentioned white reaching out to help Black people. Here's an idea for you to help Balck people and other whites like yourself: Go into any or all of the other white blogs you can find and tell the audience how you tried to guide Black people to see things your way but they just ignored you as if you were a salvation army clown. And then just hang out in that white blog until they start telling racist jokes about Black people. When the jokes start this is what I want you to do: Tell the other whites that it is not right for them to be speaking of Black people in that way. After they verbally thrash you for being an African lover, I want you to take a firm stand with the other whites and announce that Black people should be treated with respect and equality. After that, report back to us with what you have learned about your white brethren. That is how you and every other concerned, ignorant, well-intentioned white can help Black people solve their problems. Oh, and by the way, if you want to stay in the white blogs and not return to this one, I am sure no one would mind that either. I, myself would certainly appreciate it. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Darren Hutchinson EMAIL: IP: 75.196.229.62 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 03:07:49 PM Cmoney -- The acting black discourse never speaks with complexity. It just assigns blame to black youth. At least your post tries to do more. Chauncey: My response is not as simplistic as you portray it. I only mentioned Clinton because I found the concept of a person criticizing his "group" a fascinating one. If it is truly a racially neutral position, then why not consider how Clinton might speak to whites or to women? It seems logical to do this. If social condemnation is only available for blacks, then pondering what Clinton would do seems counterintuitive. Furthermore, the fact that I have only had the opportunity to respond to dominant critiques of "black pathology" proves a broader point that I have been making on here consistently -- racial pathologies are only depicted in "black" terms. Our society does not talk about white crime, white anti-intellectualism, etc. Instead, the broader culture portrays these things as uniquely black. I believe that this pattern is far more dangerous than Imus, and I will criticize it when I see it. It is an American pathology. So, if persons, black or white, can criticize so-called "black" pathology, I can and will continute to question the basis for doing this, particularly to the exclusion of any other group's pathologies. Furthermore, I encourage you to read further. I have done a lot more than point out white pathologies. In fact, I don't even like the association of pathology and race. Instead, I have sought to contextualize black behavior, demonstrate that it is not that different than whites in many respects, and that some of the claims are overstated and empirically unsupportable. Of course, you do not react to these arguments, just your strawman. Finally, the fact that you mention that blacks are killing each other is simply an example of what I argued in an earlier thread. Although violent crimes are typically "intraracial" - meaning people tend to kill people in their own racial group -- you (and society) only focus on black-on-black crime. There is no such thing in scholarship as white-on-white crime, although it is a pervasive social condition. Why? Neither white or black pathology can explain this. This "discriminatory" treatment of crime is worthy of examination. Forgetting "about whites" means that you can distort the truth. Proving racism requires you to demonstrate that you are being treated differently because of your race. This is exactly what the racial pathology discourse does: it isolates only "black" pathology for exploration; presumably no other pathologies exist. Furthermore, the art of social science itself operates on comparative analysis. The statistics you rattle off concerning blacks in the penal system mean nothing unless they are weighed against trends in the general population. You compared blacks to whites -- but then encouraged us not to do so. Why? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 03:30:55 PM Some folks need to talk more with white women. The rate of white male crimes against their own women is enouch to make any person with any true consciousness cringe. "Half truths are worst than lies." Darren Hutchinson - you are truly a thoughtful person. Keep strong my brother. Thank god for Jimmy Baldwin. "The Price of a Ticket." ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Vixen EMAIL: IP: 169.226.75.35 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 04:04:37 PM I agree 100% with 3D , Annabele and Hutchinson My friend and I get into these discussions very other day. I am a political scientist, not to say that I know more than people about politics but I am very good at what I do. So I try to tell her to look at the things that Obama does with a grain of salt. I also come from being called "a white girl", still today. I come from a middle class,professional, Black American(from former Aamerican slaves), married (still) family and I am proud of that. Do I think that black kids being called white is the reason for so much failure in the school systems, no. I'm a little worried at where this Obama train is headed, and I do not intent to give him my vote just because he's "Black". He haas not said or done anything with substance and real policy. My friend says that I am being too hard on him because he's black, no I;m being too hard on him because he's depending on the (real) African-American (me) vote. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Vixen EMAIL: IP: 169.226.75.35 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 04:07:06 PM I agree 100% with 3D , Annabele and Hutchinson My friend and I get into these discussions every other day. I am a political scientist, not to say that I know more than people about politics but I am very good at what I do. So I try to tell her to look at the things that Obama does with a grain of salt. I also come from being called "a white girl", still today. I come from a middle class,professional, Black American(from former American slaves),still married family and I am proud of that. Do I think that black kids being called white is the reason for so much failure in the school systems, no. Do I know that t here are more complex issues facing Black children then someone saying they re "acting white", yes. I'm a little worried at where this Obama train is headed, and I do not intent to give him my vote just because he's "Black". He haas not said or done anything with substance and real policy. My friend says that I am being too hard on him because he's black, no I;m being too hard on him because he's depending on the (real) African-American (me) vote. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: rikyrah EMAIL: siport27@aol.com IP: 172.131.77.9 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 04:08:58 PM Read the article. Folks talking about ‘Obama having to understand the complete culture of hip hop’, um…well, I suppose my feelings about the modern day minstrel show known as hip hop are well known by how I view it. It might be a generation gap there, but that generation has very little to offer constructively. I don’t think Obama goes far enough. The only one who was willing to call out the elephant in the room with regards to the education gap was Bill Cosby, and you see what happened to him. I don’t doubt that there’s racism in America. I don’t even doubt that majority Black schools don’t get the funding that rich White schools get. BUT…what we DO get, ‘we’ don’t do enough with it. I was in the ‘inner city’ for nearly 5 years. What I observed there was disheartening, because nobody wants to place the blame for what’s happening to our children where it belongs - with the parents. It’s the 800 pound gorilla that everybody sees, but nobody wants to touch. There’s a local radio talk show host where I live who consistently says that he’s for REPARATIONS. But, for him, REPARATIONS is EXTERNAL & INTERNAL. And, if we took care of our INTERNAL reparations, then the EXTERNAL reparations wouldn’t loom so large. So, what is Obama supposed to do, go around in front of Black audiences and talk about how our lives would be perfect, IF ONLY, these programs were funded? It’s like he’s damned if he does, and damned if he doesn’t. But, folks know if every program we could ever think of was fully funded… There would STILL be serious problems within our community. THAT is what Obama is addressing, and I see no problem with him bringing up the issues. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Vincent EMAIL: IP: 38.113.90.254 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 04:46:13 PMI can appreciate any facts that are helpful to me, black folks, America and the world. What I don't understand is why do we ignore things that are apparent and right in front of our faces. I don't need the barbershop, Face the Nation or any thing else to tell me that my neighborhood is unsafe, its inhabitants are inconsiderate and disrespectful and we don't properly participate in society. Engaged analysis that can be had anywhere would not and has not convinced even some more savvy and (formally) educated individuals in my community. A lot of the stuff said about blacks is prevalent in my community (and family). Attempts to inform folks is defeated within cognitive dissonance. The truth where I live often competes with comfort (immediate). Any of you are welcome to come and help. I am called a fool for walking the walk (as well as talking it). When I had to go to bat against the city, (which included black politicians) many black folks, which included some of my friends got quiet, made excuses or sided with the city. Even those who knew they were wrong. I was essentially mobbed. All this in a town where I was born and raised.
----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 130.203.161.229 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 04:49:39 PM rikyah, The problem occurs when Obama and others selectively bring up issues. Is he going to talk about any of the issues that were brought up here by Darren Hutchinson and others???? Probably not. You can't talk about one side of an issue and not expect people not to call you out on it. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 06:05:37 PM I think this would be less offensive if he deals with this as to what causes communities to have problems without mentioning race. When race is mentioned, many get offended, because it comes across as being part of the character of the race. What if he would say. Children in one parent homes are more likely to do drugs x times as many as those with two parents. And children with one parent homes are x times as likely to graduate as two parent homes. X times to be in poverty, Commit crimes, have out of wedlock children, etc. So far race hasn't been mentioned yet. Then he talks about encouraging couples to consider their importance they have over their children's life. And introduces programs to strenghten family units. Then after all this, he talks about what we can do to help the single parent now. How we can decrease the chances of this happening to the children in single homes now. I think with this approach he would let the conservatives know he understands the importance of families, and also educate that something has to be done now to help the current generation. This would also open the door for those who believe only programs would be the answer. This could all be done without mentioning specific race problems. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Darren Hutchinson EMAIL: IP: 75.196.229.62 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 06:36:30 PM Vincent -- You did not identify anything that "we" are ignoring. I posted a link to social science research (essentially voting data), which directly contradicts one of Obama's claims. This is important "information." That's the point I am trying to make. It seems so convenient to attack black youth today, that people do so without any empirical data to support their claims. Isn't this part of the reason why the country has turned against Bush (no evidence to support the war....)? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Darren Hutchinson EMAIL: IP: 75.196.197.241 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 08:33:24 PM Sociological literature on "acting white" and its educational impact: http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/oct05/tyson101105.htm (finding no impact on student performance of "acting white" rhetoric) http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:X92_Q_MDdygJ:www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers/fryer_torelli.pdf+%22acting+white%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us (finding "some" effect but concluding that removal of this rhetoric would have no impact on average black student; also disimissing as unsupportable argument that this rhetoric cause self-sabotage among black students) Both of these studies are empirically based (i.e., they do not involve people sitting around deciding that their reality is a universal truth). Even the Girls Scouts, Inc. has a research wing - and that entity polled young girls about whether they felt that academic success would lead to peer-group taunting. The results: race did not have any relationship. In fact, white girls reported more anxiety on this issue (but taking the margin of error into consideration, the results are a statistical tie.) I cannot provide a link because the spam-blocker limits the amount of links in one post. Nevertheless, many of the studies document that white and black students feel that being smart is "uncool." I am still reading up on the subject (there is a lot of scholarship on the issue), so I do not have a full listing of statistical data - but the abundance so far goes against the standard narrative of black pathology. Here's another good one: "Weighing the Burden of Acting White: Are There Race Differences in Attitudes Toward Education?" (studying attitudes among a national survey of 25000 high schoolers and rejecting notion that "acting white" rhetoric impacts black achievement). I just wish politicians (whatever race) would portray important social issues with more complexity. Internal critiques are important, but so are nuance and empiricism. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Vincent EMAIL: IP: 69.116.14.124 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 11:25:09 PM What I am referring to are the things I step over daily when I leave my house. I don't need statistics, a book or a website to tell me what I witness daily. Maybe these things only happen in NJ (black folks disrespect for themselves, each other and the general public, drug dealing, materialism, irresponsible parenting - creating, rearing and educating). I could go on. I am aware that these problems are not unique to black folks, they just effect us more. No statistics in the world will change the fact that my kid can't walk to the store safely.Darren,
I do not disagree to your approach or analysis on what ills black folk. I am merely stating that statistics do not change what I have to deal with daily. Are you saying that society has such an effect on black folks that they are excused from having free will? That society's effects render them unwilling to distinguish between right and wrong? Naturally I am not speaking of everyone. Just those who make my neighborhood unsafe. Those that do not contribute to the development of their offspring. Society does have an effect on all of us. My guess is that factor is more constant than we admit. How much more will we allow to affect us?
I also commend you for not "dumbing down." There are kids that feel they do not have that option. If blending means they won't have to fight every day/week/month, they blend. Bullies look for the most vulnerable. Book worms fit that description where I'm from. Acting white also transcends age. I have been accused of this by grown folks as well. Insteaqd of fighting I am subject to mobbing. Since you read Fryer, note what he says about the cultural (social) capital in the black community. Its importance outweighs human capital and what it can contribute (Fryer, R. G., (June 2003), An Economic Approach to Cultural Capital). I wonder what you may add or contrast with that. It is what makes me such a misfit in my own community. When I can afford to leave, I will. We are far from living up to what my grandparents generation endured for us.
----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: cazieperry@yahoo.com IP: 67.63.17.27 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 05:05:25 PM In Philadelphia, Pa the African American children are breaking the teachers necks. Nothing but violence. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Darren Hutchinson EMAIL: IP: 75.196.192.22 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 12:18:51 AM Cmoney -- your approach gives us Bush and falsehoods. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 68.55.117.119 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 05:19:28 PM Darren: John Kerry's stupid rambling, nonsensical, boring answers to questions, refusal to refute the Swift Boater liars and systematic disenfranchisement of Black voters by an Uncle Tom Secretary of State in Ohio gave us Bush. Don't put that mess on me! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: deb EMAIL: IP: 70.124.86.36 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 05:21:36 PM Quite frankly, I never heard any of the Swift Boat allegations convincingly debunked by Kerry. Meanwhile,any number of Kerry's views were convincingly debunked. The truth is that Kerry is a loser who fabricated lots of details about his service in Vietnam. Assuming that every vet that spoke out about him is a liar while accepting the statements of Crystal Mangum as gospel truth is one of the reasons that so many on the left lack creedence. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 10:09:34 AM Deb: I think it was well documented that much of what the so-called Swift Vote Veterans were saying about John Kerry was absolutely false or nothing or than political spin. However, John Kerry is not worth defending for a number of reasons so I don't think it is even worth discussing. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Truth Sayer EMAIL: IP: 75.199.44.3 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 01:56:39 AM Deb - your post sounds like Fox News. Anyway, I think people mean that Kerry's positions on, say, Iraq were more than stupid one-liners ("stay the course"). You and cmoney hate him, but look at the crisis in the White House. I imagine a number of moralistic Americans are longing for the days of Monica Lewinsky. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Darren Hutchinson EMAIL: IP: 75.199.44.3 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 02:35:42 AM Vincent -- Of course I am not arguing that blacks lack agency. We must view agency, however, in a social context. Clearly it is a rare instance where someone is compelled to engage in violence or other harmful activity. But an abundance of data indicate that when an individual's choices are circumscribed by broder structural concerns, then they act in ways that may seem or which are ultimately harmful -- but which are not exactly out of line with their choices. Wilson's "When Work Disappears" describes how the decline in middle-income wage opportunities, combined with a history of residential segregation and discriminatory capital markets has combined to create concentrated poverty -- with all of its negative effects. Other works include Black Wealth/White Wealth, American Apartheid, and When Affirmative Action Was White. More importantly, however, your post completely misses the point of my discussion: I am not focusing on individual whites. My posts do not blame one particular person or group of white people for doing any singular act to make a black person engage in violence or other negative behaviors. That is a complete distortion. Instead, I have truly attempted to redirect our discussion about racism and inequality away from individuals and into the direction of talking about the social constraints that define and limit opportunties for poor persons of color. I have done the same in my analysis of black behavior. As I have embraced a structural argument for racism, I refuse to assign blame in individual blacks for the plight of the blacks community as well. Social inequity is not a product of conscious, poor choices by present-day individuals. Although we must resist overt, individualized racism and even "the acting white" drama, this will not do much for black people. Individualism matters -- but it hardly explains the society in which we live. You said something interesting in your last post: once you can afford to leave the neighborhood in which you live, you will, in order to escape violence and other poor conditions (paraphrase). Question: doesn't this indicate that a lot of black people - who do not fit the Cosby/Spike Lee/Obama "anti-acting white" or "black-on-black criminal" mold, face hardships that are beyond their control or that they did not create? A callous conservative or person who traces everything to individual behavior would blame you or, perhaps, your parents for CHOOSING to live in the neighborhood in the first place. After all, we Americans have equal opportunity and free will. The fact remains, however, and statistics show this as well, that most low-income and poor blacks are hardworking (when employed), subscribe to a solid work ethic, believe in the importance of education, and do not engage in crime. These are, in fact, the people to whom Obama undoubtedly directed his comments. They are people, who (like you) are concerned with their neighborhoods, safety, and the quality of their children's education. Despite this reality, they are still poor and low-income. Their middle-class values cannot magically transform broader economic and ideological forces. I do not believe that we do justice to the concerns of people of color by blaming their plight on bad kids in the neighborhood who are anti-intellectual or who engage in crime. Nor do we defeat racial inequality by focusing all of our energy on the Don Imuses of the world -- as important was it was to criticize him. On this issue, see the recent post of Terry Smith. PS: As for Fryer, I noted in my post that his study found a modest social impact from "acting white" rhetoric, but concluded that it does not substantially impact most black students, if at all. Although I cited this work, I do have some trouble with his methodology, which sought to analyze how academic achievement impacts black and white students' "popularity" -- which seems like a fuzzy concept (and if defined, subject to an immense number of variables that are themselves difficult to quantify). I will look at the other piece you cite. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Vincent EMAIL: IP: 69.116.14.124 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 08:58:00 PM Darren, My point is : in the event that this structural/cultural american crucible does not change, what are we prepared to do to help ourselves? What will we do? I believe we can change ourselves before we chaqnge our conditions. We are just like abused spouses that society (and family) neglects. Until we help ourselves, nothing will change. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cabrihr EMAIL: IP: 70.94.8.183 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 12:04:09 PM We need to be soulful, or use our "melanin" given common sense on Obama. He is a first generation African-American; father was African [proper], mother was white Posted by: AnnabelleDickson | May 3, 2007 10:03 AM i find it funny that you say his father is african(true) but yet you fail to say that his mother is from europe as if you are lumping his mother with white-american ppl there is a cultural difference just as there is a cultutal difference bewteen kenyan ppl and american ppl see where i going you cant compare kenyas to african americans because there is no country called african american we' re americans. just as there are black people and self identified arabs in kenyan there all "kenyan" but some americans cannot and will not understand between nationality and race. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cabrihr EMAIL: IP: 70.94.8.183 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 12:14:59 PM @AnnabelleDickson african nationals do not call themslevs african american but rather kenyan-american, ethiopian american, somali-american hell many african nationals do not call themselves AMERICAN at all, because they are not! Though they have AMERIACN CITIZNESHIP and this goes for many other ethnic groups in america from europe to latin america call themselves from there country of origin than the one they reside. african american is simply a label for american blacks of african descent nuff said ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: esya EMAIL: cindylbarnes@msn.com IP: 24.9.167.189 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 10:12:30 AM I think Darren Hutchinson's point is the most salient: "Interestingly,however, we do not see candidates point out white problems." There may be multiple reasons for this. The first is a fundamental point of looking at dominant versus subdominant cultures in any society: the predominant culture is the litmus or base line by which all others are "judged". By publically criticizing one group he is implicicitly attempting to identify with whites in the media. Blacks criticize whites, whites criticize blacks, men criticize women, etc. The second reason is that the same comment that is made in support of any minority group, that not all Jews, Scandinavians, whatever, think or act alike, so it is with "whites", it is just a larger group. He can get away with group stereotypes because consistantly African Americans represent a smaller percentage of the population here. That does not make it right. Finally, most people seem to think simply because of his biracial background it gives him the right to criticize both ways, making him a "perfect" candidate. Whatever. As a converso Jew, I have never adopted the "Israel love it or leave it" philosophy of that particular religious/ethnic/racial group. Perhaps that is the most that can be said of Obama as well. I am doing some reading on Cambodia and Angkor Watt. Most of the academics seems to laud the Indian influence over a prior culture. Some things never change: what is connected to power and economic wealth will always be recast as "right" in the annals of history, regardless of what really happened. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Darren Hutchinson EMAIL: IP: 75.198.191.125 URL: DATE: 05/17/2007 04:18:40 PM Vincent -- A response to your latest post. First -- your post suggests that blacks are all dependent upon "outsiders" for assistance. This social worker vision cannot withstand analysis. There are hardworking, self-sufficient blacks throughout the country. While blacks are disproportionately poor, relative to whites, the vast majority are not poor. Second, your post suggests that reliance upon government is uniquely a black phenomenon. It isn't. Corporations receive governmental subsidies and tax breaks. One of the most utilized tax breaks -- mortgage interest deductions -- benefits whites disproportionately and harms poor people, who are likely to rent their living spaces. Federal mortgage insurance and lending programs have a discriminatory past; they basically helped to establish a white middle class and solidfy segregated communities. Whites today benefit from these prior policies due to the intergenerational transference of wealth (and the primary appreciating assets Americans own are homes). Finally, financial aid, social security, free public education, state university tuition benefits, police protection, and other governmental handouts are utilized by whites (and other racial groups) daily. The image you portray of black dependency looks a lot more complicated when you apply the same analysis to other racial groups -- something you refuse to do and something that frustrates you when others do so (comparative analysis, however, is an important aspect of social science research). The vast reliance upon government by nonblack racial groups means that singling out blacks for their reliance upon government requires some explanation. Finally, your post implies that reliance on government is socially deviant. This is not true. Ever here of a social contract? We establish governments with the expectation that they will provide certain essential services. Remedying the impact of poverty and past/ongoing discrimination qualifies as a important governmental interest, from my perspective. Do you agree? We do not ask individuals to police their neighborhoods. We do not expect private citizens to conduct prosecutions of crime (as some nations do). Instead, the state sees crime as a state injury, not simply a private matter. Poverty is an important social issue, one in which government has a stake in resolving and the power to impact positively. So long as people continue to view poverty as a "private" concern, then claims about dependency will maintain legitimacy. Looking at poverty in the context of social contracts and the general reliance that Americans have for public services undermines an underlying assumption of the dependency critique. If we view poverty as a public concern (as we do crime and education), then it is entirely logical for individuals who are poor to insist upon governmental assistance - whatever their race. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: fludht rsqdghnij EMAIL: tpwndrke@mail.com IP: 68.179.144.10 URL: http://www.ujzgn.nxhkgpetb.com DATE: 05/19/2007 12:00:58 AM udkeqb foczk kepjqhnc rdqwliynf ltbo itubawc qnsw ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: dunbass EMAIL: dumbass@dunbass.com IP: 71.0.25.36 URL: DATE: 07/25/2007 11:00:29 PM stupid niggers what do u deserve?? ottin to yoursmy granddad did ni ----- -------- AUTHOR: sjeffries TITLE: The NBA Referee Study and Unconscious Racial Bias STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 DATE: 05/02/2007 10:12:50 PM ----- BODY:Today's New York Times reports an upcoming empirical study finding that White NBA referees call fouls on Black players at a higher rate than they do White players (and that Black referees, albeit at a lower rate, call fouls on White players at a higher rate). NBA administrative officials and players have dismissed the findings categorically, claiming primarily that NBA referees simply would not explicitly make calls on the basis of race. The response of the president of the NBA players' association, Utah Jazz guard Derek Fisher, is typical:
We obviously discuss officiating and our feelings toward it. But I don’t ever recall it being a racially motivated type of conversation where we felt like there were certain guys that had it out for me or him or whoever just because of the color of our skin.
Yet the issue with race is not one of conscious prejudice so much as cognitive bias. Cognition refers, most simplistically, to the ways individuals seek to classify new information. We continuously encounter people, places, and ideas that are unfamiliar; cognitive psychologists have found that we invariably seek to associate the unfamiliar with our pre -existing understandings about things: that we essentially interpret new information by classifying it in such a way that it is understandable and ordinary in light of our prior experiences. This cognition, moreover, is unthinking. If I write "bird," without even thinking, you likely have a mental picture of what a bird looks like, along with a sense of what it's capacities and attributes are. And these associations -- particularly when invoked in casual conversation -- are drawn without explicit thought.
It is in that context that the NBA study, if it is true, is not about whether NBA referees are consciously racist, but the extent to which unconscious cognitive bias affects NBA officiating. Given the pervasiveness of racialized thinking, there's no reason to believe the NBA would be immune. I do tend to believe that there are exponentially fewer conscious racists in our country than there used to be. But racialized cognitive thinking is alive and well, and in many ways is more pernicious. Dom Imus, as his legion of friends (Black and White) have asserted, may not be an explicit racist. But his cognitions about Black folk are clearly racially informed. He called the Rutgers women "nappy-headed hos," and did so with such ease, because he cognitively associated such a stereotype with the imagery of Black women. Similarly, I submit that racial discrimination in the workplace today is not primarily the result of conscious prejudice, but the consequence of racialized cognitions: that Blackness itself is simply associated with an incapacity to perform complicated functions at a high level.
So I don't know specifically whether the referee study accurately tracks the extent to which cognitive racial bias affects NBA officiating. But I do know, in my initial conversations with folks, I'm frequently asked if I received a basketball scholarship to attend college, and never asked whether I received an academic one. I doubt these people are conscious racists, but they are cognitive racists -- and so they don't even know it.
This cognition, moreover, is unthinking. If I write "bird," without even thinking, you likely have a mental picture of what a bird looks like, along with a sense of what it's capacities and attributes are. And these associations -- particularly when invoked in casual conversation -- are drawn without explicit thought.Prof. Jeffries wanna talk about consciousness, excellent...., But be careful not to give anybody a pass for unconscious errors of cognition, particularly not in a society such as the one in which we abide. Governance in this society has always been predicated on a calculated exploitation of errors of cognition. One of the primary attributes of Black culture is non-participation in this American pathology - thus the motto (in this world, but not of this world)
humans are prey to the illusion that socially transmitted traits result from an inherited inner essence rather than from enculturation -- in other words, humans reason incorrectly as if ethnies were species. This illusion, Gil-White explained, is importantly responsible for the susceptibility of humans to racist ideologies, and it is such a widespread illusion, he reasoned, that perhaps the human brain is designed to misrepresent the world in this manner. The same paper advanced Gil-White's theory for why the human perceptual and cognitive system is biased to deny what should be the obvious reality of the social transmission of culture, perceiving it instead as biologically inherited. The title of his article was Are Ethnic Groups Biological Species to the Human Brain? Gil-White, F. J. 2001. Are ethnic groups biological species to the human brain?: Essentialism in our cognition of some social categories. Current anthropology 42:515-554.http://www.prometheus6.org/node/14352
I doubt these people are conscious racists, but they are cognitive racists -- and so they don't even know it.In a society as steeped with racist propaganda as America, how could it be otherwise? Generations have been systematically progammed to act as if Black folks aren't completely human, simply because they now politely act as if we aren't human - makes it no less immoral and no less profound in its impact. In fact, the tendency is so deeply rooted that it's very easy to redirect - take for example the attempt to proliferate an anti-Islamist meme into the broader culture, and so on, and so on, and so on..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 06:31:38 AM the study also found that black refs were "racist" too, though not, apparently, as much as white refs. but there could be other explanations for the data. maybe white players get fouled more often because of the positions they tend to play. this seems like it could be a huge confounding factor. (another more offensive explanation is that black players are more aggressive and stronger than white players and thus foul harder and more often than weaker white players. but this seems a bit racist in itself, so i'll leave it at that.) anyway, derek fisher is right. there's really no racism in the league. (charles barkley is also right, but his comments today on TNT evince a serious misunderstanding of statistics: he said "the study is wrong because there are more blacks in the league and, as a result, blacks simply commit more fouls.") or perhaps the study's conclusion is right and the players know it but don't care. one tends not to care about subtle instances of "cognitive" and "conscious" racism when he gets paid millions of dollars to play with balls. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/03/2007 06:47:23 AM 400 years of governance via errors of cognition..., http://www.prometheus6.org/node/8181#comment-6015
Since A.D. 1619, each interpersonal instance of white denial of non-white humanity has caused the non-white party an instantaneous reflexive flinch, an unnatural prefrontal buffering of visceral pain. You could call the net effect of this process a centuries old integral of a series of infinitesimal buffering flinches - or you could simply call it oppositional culture. (personally, I believe there's greater explanatory power in looking at it at the discrete instances level) An explanatory history of white denial of non-white humanity - pursuant to commercial ends - has been nicely resourced here - courtesy P6.Links to the psychology and history references are still valid at the comment quoted above..., Now, what'll really bake your noodle, if you ponder the fundaments of the problem deeply, is how intractable an error of cognition is once it's firmly established in the collective unconscious - nothing short of salvatory and revelatory change will suffice to root it out, and even then...., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/03/2007 06:58:24 AM a kneegrow conservative is an apostate whose mind has succumbed to the pernicious exploitation of this unconscious meme, i.e., they've gotten caught up in the uniquely American error of cognition, and in the process, forgotten what it means to be Black...,(in this world, but not of this world) ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 07:02:37 AM cnulan, i've never agreed with any of the liberal cooks on blackprof, so you should take the following as a compliment: i agree. i think. you're clearly right that "[g]enerations have been systematically progammed to act as if Black folks aren't completely human ..." i guess you could trace this back to the slave days: black slaves were considered chattel, not men. and then we have all the stuff about blacks being only 3/5ths as human (and american) as whites. but it's foolish to say that these same attitudes prevail in contemporary american society (to the same extent they did way back when) or are as harmful to blacks today. clearly retarded ideas like blacks not being "completely human" tend to fade away over time. plus, our country currently goes to great lengths to ensure that these attitudes don't hurt blacks - witness all the anti-discrimination laws and racial-preference programs we have on the books. so you're completely wrong when you say that: "simply because they now politely act as if we aren't human - makes it no less immoral and no less profound in its impact." obviously, if the impact were as "profound" as you dumbly suggest, then you'd be a slave. so i guess i need to change what i said earlier. i agree with you, but only in part. apparently, even in their wisest moments, liberals just can't get anything completely right. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/03/2007 07:16:41 AM
clearly retarded ideas like blacks not being "completely human" tend to fade away over time. plus, our country currently goes to great lengths to ensure that these attitudes don't hurt blacks - witness all the anti-discrimination laws and racial-preference programs we have on the books. so you're completely wrong when you say that: "simply because they now politely act as if we aren't human - makes it no less immoral and no less profound in its impact." obviously, if the impact were as "profound" as you dumbly suggest, then you'd be a slave.your immorality never fades, it simply acquires a new target contingent upon the revised economic interests of your betters, muslims, librulls, whoever the big man tells the cognitively deficient to despise and injure, you slavishly sally forth and do it..., it's all that you have to make you feel good about yourself. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 07:45:13 AM cnulan, i don't know what you're trying to say, but whatever it is, it ain't right. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Truth Sayer EMAIL: IP: 75.196.229.62 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 09:23:20 AM I am happy someone did this study. But I feel the same way about this one and the way I feel when I cannot get a taxi due to race: I least I can afford one. Translation: somethings become a mere nuisance when you have economic privilege. At the end of the day, professional basketball players go home to mansions. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 10:06:07 AM The data: "With their database of almost 600,000 foul calls, Mr. Wolfers and Mr. Price used a common statistical technique called multivariable regression analysis, which can identify correlations between different variables. The economists accounted for a wide range of factors: that centers, who tend to draw more fouls, were disproportionately white; that veteran players and All-Stars tended to draw foul calls at different rates than rookies and non-stars; whether the players were at home or on the road, as officials can be influenced by crowd noise; particular coaches on the sidelines; the players’ assertiveness on the court, as defined by their established rates of assists, steals, turnovers and other statistics; and more subtle factors like how some substitute players enter games specifically to commit fouls. Mr. Wolfers and Mr. Price examined whether otherwise similar black and white players had fouls-per-minute rates that varied with the racial makeup of the refereeing crew. “Across all of these specifications,” they write, “we find that black players receive around 0.12-0.20 more fouls per 48 minutes played (an increase of 2 ½-4 ½ percent) when the number of white referees officiating a game increases from zero to three.” Mr. Wolfers and Mr. Price also report a statistically significant correlation with decreases in points, rebounds and assists, and a rise in turnovers, when players performed before primarily opposite-race officials. “Player-performance appears to deteriorate at every margin when officiated by a larger fraction of opposite-race referees,” they write. The paper later notes no change in free-throw percentage. “We emphasize this result because this is the one on-court behavior that we expect to be unaffected by referee behavior.” ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 10:24:55 AM "Mr. Wolfers and Mr. Price also report a statistically significant correlation with decreases in points, rebounds and assists, and a rise in turnovers, when players performed before primarily opposite-race officials." Of course its ok to talk about unconscience racism and therefore accept we are all racist by faith. But I know in basketball when there is more turnovers, less assists, its usually because of more aggressive defense, the game will have more fowls. Could this also have been a study of how people perform with opposite race authority figures at the helm? I think there are just too many variables to make any clear judgments about this. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.173.248 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 11:03:00 AM Have no idea if there has been any follow up research in this topic area - but back in '03 Dartmoth researchers found that racism supresses cognitive ability - http://straddle3.net/context/03/en/2003_12_01.html That would be a logical explination as to the differential vision. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: ken EMAIL: IP: 24.245.18.8 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 11:33:18 AM BT, Took a look at your link; "Plus, these same individuals performed worse on the cognitive test after an actual interaction with a black male, suggesting that they may have been depleted of the necessary resources to complete the task." Is it your opinion the players have this racial bias and therefore when faced with white refs, get less rebounds and turn the ball over more and score less points? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 70.12.44.220 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/03/2007 11:34:14 AM differential vision? No need for deep science on this one magne.., Anybody suffering cognitive defects so profound that these blind them to the humanity of a proximate other, is tow up from the flow up!!!! racism has stunted the possible psychological development of this country and reduced it to a universally despised moral pariah..., puts me in mind of little Anthony Fremont in It's a Good Life..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Nana EMAIL: IP: 71.249.189.209 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 11:41:19 AM So Thomas was right about “Bird” – LOL The problem we have and that our smart brother cnulan has pointed to is that we keep acting as the individual’s ability to transcend the racial idiosyncrasies of our society is an average. It is not: it is an exceptional person today. And why quatum leaps are important in human history. The social context is greater because we are social beings influenced by social pathologies. This is why some of us feel so alone for the stance we take today. And it is why I empathize more now than in my youth. Why Afro Americana Spirituality is such a good healer, because it states WE must heal together, as oppose to I have to save my soul. 2) The amount of money some one makes does make a difference because a union plumber makes $70 an hour does not mean they are not exploited. As a matter of fact it is important to watch what is happening to those black folks who make the money, because it is a barometry of where a society is going. – How fast we go towards tyranny or towards resolutions of social problems. Re-read the history of European Jews!! 3) New studies have found that “people who believe themselves to be free of bias may harbor plenty of it all the same.” The Trials of Neurolaw J. Rosen NYT March 11th 2007. So you can have a nice Euro co-worker and given the situation turn ugly when the mix calls for it. Seen it so many times!!! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.173.248 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 12:26:23 PM Ken - it would be a chicken and egg thing. The ref's cognitive ability may be impaired by his bias. That is supported in the study's analysis of the makeup of the Referee team... Seperating the motivational reasons the players are responding, ergo their expectations of how the Referees will perform (based on the referee team racial makeup) from the impact of additional foul calling is a much nattier problem. I don't think you can do that unless you analyze specific types of calls the individual refrees make, and whether those specific calls are consistent across different makeups of referee teams... Crosshatched to the player's performance across those different makeups. Players are certainly aware that some referees are stricter on some calls than others. It's logical that they would accordingly modify their play. One of the reasons I gave up on the NBA, is there seems to be a seperate set of rules for superstars like Michael Jordan and the ordinary player - cheapening the game. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Blk & Proud EMAIL: IP: 70.49.100.4 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 04:31:26 PM Chauncey, Whether black players actually commit more fouls is irrelevant to the study. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 09:08:19 AM Irrelevant indeed. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Aaron EMAIL: IP: 198.31.170.156 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 11:12:05 AM The NYT misinterpreted a bit. The paper doesn't demonstrate that white referees are more likely to call fouls on black players than white players. It demonstrates only that white referees call more fouls in games that have more black players. Drawing the former conclusion is an example of an ecological fallacy. It's the same as saying "Majority black voting districts are more likely to vote Democrat. Therefore, blakcs are more likely to vote democrat." While, in this case, both statements are probably true, the second statement does not follow logically from the first. Until Wolfers can link indivdual foul calls to individual referees, we need to be careful about the conclusions we draw from the research. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 04:34:40 PM Ronnie B and Blk & Proud, are you guys kidding? whether blacks actually commit more fouls is EXTREMELY relevant here. if blacks actually commit more fouls, then the study's conclusion goes out the window. didn't you guys take math or stats in college? or are you as ignorant as charles barkley? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Blk & Proud EMAIL: IP: 69.156.103.73 URL: DATE: 05/04/2007 10:08:58 PM Chauncey, Assume that black players commit more fouls. Then all else being equal refs of all races should (equally) call more fouls on black players. If, however, white refs call more fouls on black players than other refs, then black players committing more fouls is irrelevant. The same thing would result if black players committed less fouls than white players. I think we now know who has who shown himself to be ignorant. Aaron, You are confused. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 12:25:24 AM Blk & Proud, i don't get what's so confusing about this. if the white refs are calling more fouls on blacks because blacks are indeed committing more fouls than whites, then the data would suggest, at the very least, that the black refs are the true racists here. this is especially true if the extent to which blacks commit more fouls than whites roughly reflects the extent to which white refs call more fouls on black players than white players. you're confusing independent variables with "irrelevant" variables. get it? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Blk & Proud EMAIL: IP: 70.49.101.142 URL: DATE: 05/05/2007 07:13:30 PM Chauncey, To make a long story short, you evidently are not getting something about the study. My advice is to reread it. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Been hacked a lot EMAIL: IP: 71.198.55.171 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 12:54:29 AM As someone who played basketball for a long time, I thought the same thing that Chauncey did. I did not play pro, but I can tell you that in over 20 years of playing, that when I was guarded by black people vs. white people, generally, I got hacked much more. At the same time, they are generally much better players, hence the high % of minutes played. The real bias in pro basketball is not between black and white, but star players and unknowns. In the past, watching Shaq run people over that are standing still, Bird getting fouls when he is getting snuffed, and MJ getting the call at the end of the game always boggled my mind. The ex-NBA players-turned announcers used to even joke about it on TV. That is what the NBA should focus on. In fact, I bet if you took an anonymous poll of NBA players over the past few decades, that is the BIG thing that would stand out, not black vs. white. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: EMAIL: IP: 67.70.66.163 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 03:48:41 AM Been hacked a lot: They accounted for star status in the study. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: truth seeker EMAIL: IP: 70.124.86.36 URL: DATE: 05/06/2007 01:53:14 PM http://isteve.blogspot.com/2007/05/i-guess-nyt-doesnt-have-duke-lacrosse.html ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 12:54:19 AM Blk & Proud, i'll take that as "i don't think i follow you." it was evident from the beginning, really. statistics isn't a simple subject. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 01:10:25 AM Been hacked a lot, yes. your experience, i suspect, is common. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Blk & Proud, EMAIL: IP: 64.229.195.192 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 11:54:19 AM Chauncey, To be blunt, it means that I don't think I should waste any more time on this issue with you. Intellectually, you're just not worth it. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill EMAIL: bmurry@yahoo.com IP: 71.199.151.198 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 03:40:03 PM This study, the headlines and media reaction are yet another example of the insanity happening in this country when it comes to racism. The data from this exact same study found that: black players received fewer fouls per 48 minutes than white players, 4.33 to 4.97. The headlines should read WHITE PLAYERS RECEIVE 15% more fouls per game than black players due to racial bias. Read that again, white players recieve a half of a foul more per game than black players. Take this fact from the EXACT same study and create a headline that says there is racial bias towards black playere. Huh??? How do you get that conclusion? WAKE UP PEOPLE! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill EMAIL: bmurry@yahoo.com IP: 71.199.151.198 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 03:40:37 PM This study, the headlines and media reaction are yet another example of the insanity happening in this country when it comes to racism. The data from this exact same study found that: black players received fewer fouls per 48 minutes than white players, 4.33 to 4.97. The headlines should read WHITE PLAYERS RECEIVE 15% more fouls per game than black players due to racial bias. Read that again, white players recieve a half of a foul more per game than black players. Take this fact from the EXACT same study and create a headline that says there is racial bias towards black playere. Huh??? How do you get that conclusion? WAKE UP PEOPLE! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Been hacked a lot EMAIL: IP: 71.198.55.171 URL: DATE: 05/07/2007 08:37:57 PM To anonymous: The fact that they separated star players into a separate category just proves my point. Amazingly, even the statisticians knew this was a big factor or why would they have even done it this way? I would like to see this study done with respect to that vs. black vs. white. By the way, considering about 90% of the stars in the league are black, doesn't that suggest that since it is obvious the stars get the benefit of the doubt from all refs, and that black stars tend to shoot more and attract the most fouls, that this is starting to lean the other way??? You can make stats do anything you want- just follow the next election and see for yourself. I would bet you can take a different look at the same stats and make it look 100% different. On a sidenote, I think the NBA refs are getting 100% better the past few years at not recognizing "stars" and calling it straight. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Thinking Woman EMAIL: IP: 151.198.194.85 URL: DATE: 05/08/2007 01:48:06 PM We are all creatures of habits. Some people are to intellectually slothfulness to research the reasons or causes for their/our behavior. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Deliberate Speed EMAIL: IP: 216.168.211.20 URL: DATE: 05/09/2007 04:09:56 PM Study: NBA has most diverse workforce http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070509/ap_on_sp_bk_ne/bkn_nba_diversity http://www.tidesport.org/RGRC/2004/NBA_Report_Card_2004.pdf ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: esya EMAIL: cindylbarnes@msn.com IP: 24.9.167.189 URL: DATE: 05/10/2007 10:36:16 AM I refer you to a book, "The Emotional Brain," in which the science of response is discussed in great detail but explained in everyday terms. The scientific point that cognitive processes are unconscious does not justify acting with conscious discrimination, as some fear. Simply, those cognitive processes are at work with all humans, not just whites toward people of color. If you think a tow headed person is not singled out cognitively in a NYC subway you got another think coming. The issue is one of political and social controls and protections, which our fine capitalitic society believes are unnecessary. That is the best demonstration of the comment elsewhere that our society is fundamentally anti-intellectual, because what is Unconscious and uncontrolled, what is emotional and visceral, is morally right from that anti intellectual perspective. Rationality is seen as a false shell to all that stuff, not as a means of controlling our baser natures. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/11/2007 03:14:17 PM
We are all creatures of habits. Some people are to intellectually slothfulness to research the reasons or causes for their/our behavior.
this is right, more or less (mostly less).
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We also want to welcome Lee Harris and Bill Stephney, our Guest Contributors for May.
Lee Harris, a graduate of Morehouse College and Yale Law School, is a professor of law at the University of Memphis Cecil C. Humphreys School of Law. Professor Harris, a graduate of Morehouse College and Yale Law School, teaches and writes on issues of corporations, law and economics, and social-welfare policy. His recent publications have appeared in the Columbia Human Rights Law Review, University of Maryland Journal of Race, Class & Gender, Journal of Land Use & Environmental Law, Georgetown Journal of Law and Public Policy, and the University of Memphis Law Review, among other legal journals. His paper on medical-liability caps was among twelve papers selected on a blind peer-review basis for inclusion in the Yale/Stanford Junior Faculty Forum in 2007. Professor Harris is currently working on a short treatise on corporations and other business organizations, which is scheduled to be published by the Carolina Academic Press at the end of 2008. During the 2007-2008 academic year, Professor Harris will be visiting at George Washington University School of Law in Washington DC.
Bill Stephney, a graduate of Alephi University, is one of the country’s foremost thinkers and activists concerning contemporary media and its effects on communities of color, not to mention a leading producer of popular culture. Stephney, a producer for the legendary hip-hop group Public Enemy, is a former President of Def Jam Records. He was also one of the founding members of the music production team “The Bomb Squad,” known for its standout work with Ice Cube, Bell Biv Devoe, Chaka Khan, and Vanessa Williams. Stephney has also served as executive producer or music supervisor for several movie soundtracks, including Juice, Boomerang, Clockers, Shaft (the remake), and Down to Earth. Stephney, now CEO of Joseph Media, has also co-produced catalogues of the comedic work of Paul Mooney and Chris Rock. In recognition of his pioneering role in contemporary media, Stephney was inducted into the Minority Media Telecommunications Council's Hall of Fame in 2006.
Stephney is involved heavily in non-profit work on issues of race, culture, and society. He has served on the boards of the National Urban League, the Apollo Theater, and the National Fatherhood Initiative. In February 2007, Stephney convened a conference on the increasing fatherlessness of urban communities at the Apollo Theater; the conference featured presenters ranging from Tyler Perry to Dr. Ronald Mincy. BET partnered with Stephney in convening the conference, and BET will air conference-related programming on the challenges of the Black family. Stephney, finally, is a frequent lecturer and writer on issues of culture and politics. He has lectured at Harvard, Columbia, and Howard, among other universities, and has written pieces for The New York Times, The New Republic, The New York Daily News, and Vibe Magazine.
Lee and Bill - thank you for your time and welcome to Blackprof.
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To deter those who would kowtow to vicious race intimidation thugs and wind bags. Naturally, he has hired a First Amendment expert and not a contract parsing, procedural nitpicker weasel, as Prof. Hutchinson proposed. http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/01/news/newsmakers/pluggedin_arango_imus.fortune/index.htm? That is the difference between a $100,000 lawyer and a $1 million lawyer. No one here will support the protection of the First Amendment from pre-chilling and racial intimidators. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 06:39:47 AM SC, insane as always. i'd like to hear stephney's take on russel simmons' comments the other week about banning evil words from rap. like simmons, i'm assuming stephney has made quite a bit of money peddling rap; so, specifically, i'd like to hear his thoughts on the obvious conflict of interest. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bill Stephney EMAIL: IP: 141.153.243.7 URL: DATE: 05/03/2007 11:46:33 AM Thank you Shavar, for the opportunity to rant this month. Yes, Supremacy Claus, our Apollo Theater conference on family issues dedicated an entire afternoon to discussing family law and its impact on our communities. That session was moderated by former judge and radio talk show host Bob Pickett, and vital commentary during the presentation was contributed by Essex County (New Jersey) Superior Court Presiding Family Judge, Glenn A. Grant, and the nation's finest family law practitioner, Alicia Crowe. Chauncey, Had I made enough money "peddling rap," perhaps I'd be more defensive regarding the industry's excesses (which I'm not...). Do not be vexed, however: I will further elaborate during my guest stint here. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: nunya EMAIL: queernunya@aol.com IP: 141.211.81.206 URL: http://queerthinker.blogspot.com DATE: 05/03/2007 12:25:48 PM Yeah, when I was reading Bill's background, I was wondering if he'd weigh in on the issues being raised over the past month about rap and the media. We have a music production background in common. Lee, a fellow Memphian and law dork. ;) Even though I don't live in Memphis anymore, but I'll be there for a few weeks starting next week. 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Thanks!!! ----- -------- AUTHOR: soverton TITLE: A Significant Development for the Blackroots STATUS: Publish ALLOW COMMENTS: 1 CONVERT BREAKS: tinymce ALLOW PINGS: 1 PRIMARY CATEGORY: politics & voting rights CATEGORY: politics & voting rights DATE: 05/01/2007 11:22:45 AM ----- BODY:The past couple of months have produced a significant development among Black blogs. Many are working together to challenge conventional Black leadership.
With ColorOfChange.org’s James Rucker as a catalyst, several Black blogs have opposed the Congressional Black Caucus Institute’s decision to partner with Fox News to air a Democratic Presidential Debate, which is scheduled to be held in CBC Chair’s hometown of Detroit (my hometown as well).
The CBCI has not fared well. Clinton, Obama, and Edwards have dropped out of the CBC/Fox debate. The DNC has denounced the CBC/Fox debate. Several CBC Members have articulated their opposition to the debate. Tavis Smiley has announced his own presidential debates on PBS that give the presidential candidates an opportunity to address issues of importance to people of color.
This collaborative project of Black blogs may not seem big, but it is powerful for a number of reasons.
1) A Generational Shift: While the “grassroots” are romanticized, in the past couple of decades Black politics has been hierarchical and limited by orthodoxy that constrains debate. An MLK/Malcolm model has defined the leadership styles and political philosophy of Black elected officials, non-elected figures like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, organizations like the NAACP, and neo-Black Nationalist commentators and figures. Those not with the program essentially had the option of becoming Black Republicans. Older Black folks often complain about complacent black youth who don’t vote, march, or otherwise live up to their model.
Black blogs offer not only an opportunity to break from old orthodoxy, but to do so in a way that is flatter, and allows for more engagement through comments from readers (which are often more provocative than the posts). Younger people are creating their own innovative models on sites like Uppity Negro.
While the older generations purport to “teach” activism to younger generations, the Blackroots is developing its own original “Post-Soul” voice (as Prof. Eddie Glaude may say). As Superspade has noted,
“I don’t think the explicit bias of Fox News is in line with the mission of the Congressional Black Caucus Institute, which if you are wondering, ‘is to provide political education and training to the next generation of African American leadership’...”
2) Transparency that Holds Black Elected Officials More Accountable: Many Black folks know the feeling of humiliation and opportunism, and don’t like to unnecessarily embarrass other Black folks, especially in front of White folks. We’re especially suspicious of the “House Negro” mentality of some Black folks who try to opportunistically constrain other Black folks, and we don’t want to be used as tools to “knock down” a black person who has accomplished something.
At the same time, however, we need transparency, honesty, and accountability in our politics. There needs to be space for alternative voices—for someone to break the silence and say what everyone is thinking. Many of these people are our heroes—we admire them, their courage, and their personal sacrifices. We don’t mean to insult or disrespect them. But to the extent that they choose to remain in public life as black leaders, their decisions are subject to critical and good faith analysis, especially by the people they purport to represent.
This is nothing new. During the 1960s, Julian Bond and John Lewis had different opinions and approaches than established civil rights leaders. In younger generations (and I mean that not primarily in age, but in ideological mindset), the Blackroots is providing a platform for transparency and good faith analysis to occur.
Afro-Netizen and Jack & Jill Politics, for example, separately criticized Jesse Jackson for speaking out against the Fox/CBC debate, and then deferring to the CBC the next week. Jack & Jill Politics disclosed to its audience that from 2003 to 2005, Fox News gave the CBC Foundation between $47,000 and $99,000, with 2006 numbers unavailable.
The Blackroots movement on the Fox/CBC Issue has also exposed the potential of Black blogs. As Afro-Netizen noted:
"Do these folks know what the 'netroots' is? Do they think it's just made up of by young, white college-educated geeks far removed from their own congressional districts? Do they know that the vast majority of Black voters who elected them are accounted for in the much larger population of African Americans who regularly access the Internet, approximately 20 million strong? Will they come to understand that the Black netroots community is presently a slumbering giant who, it seems, only the likes of a Fox News Channel can begin to awaken?
Need we remind any indifferent CBC member that incumbency is a privilege, not a right, as the November elections should have made quite clear to all -- but especially to the arrogant, out-of-step and complacent?"
3) The Power of Collaboration: Despite the interactive and collaborative nature of the Internet, many Black blogs have remained relatively autonomous. We’ve provided links to occassional posts on other sites and included other black blog sites on our blogrolls, but our interaction has been limited, at least with regard to action. And autonomy is important—the wisdom of crowds comes not through parroting, but through autonomous decisionmaking. And we all have different interests. But the CBC/Fox Issue is an important step in the evolution of network effects—the power of a broad, flat, and well-connected blackosphere.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: cnulan
EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com
IP: 65.69.77.51
URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net
DATE: 05/01/2007 11:35:27 AM
good post prof. overton, the only downside to this phenomenon, and it's a HUGE one is that we don't own the infrastructure on which these blogs depend - meaning most can be shut down at a moments notice for the most minor infraction against byzantine terms of service..,
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: cmoney
EMAIL:
IP: 38.102.195.118
URL:
DATE: 05/01/2007 12:01:51 PM
The CBC is so out of touch, they probably don't even know what a blog is. Until they get with the 21st Century, we can use blogs to organize and exchange ideas but to reach the CBC and its fossilized, moribund leadership, we will have to resort to the old technology of phone calls, letters and faxes. When was the last time a member of the CBC responded to an e-mail? I have yet to hear back from my Congressman Al Wynn about his vote for the Iraq war 4 years ago, while both of my senators form Maryland responded within days. He's Joe Lieberman in Black Face! We can Blog, but we have to communicate with these people in a format they can understand so get out your typewriters!
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: shay
EMAIL: bookerrising@yahoo.com
IP: 68.75.50.150
URL: http://bookerrising.blogspot.com
DATE: 05/01/2007 12:48:05 PM
I see that so many black liberals (and to a lesser extent, white liberals) are afraid of this across-the-aisle collaboration. Never mind that such a collaboration provides the CBC with an opportunity to get its ideas out to a different audience (instead of preaching to the choir) and exposes FOX News viewers to more viewpoints by black liberals.
MANY BLACK LIBERAL BLOGGERS (which, by the way, is not synonymous with the black blogosphere,) apparently view ideological diversity to be shunned at all costs.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: cnulan
EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com
IP: 65.69.77.51
URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net
DATE: 05/01/2007 12:59:05 PM
MANY BLACK LIBERAL BLOGGERS (which, by the way, is not synonymous with the black blogosphere,) apparently view ideological diversity to be shunned at all costs.nah, it's just that the coonservative spectrum of the sphere has demonstrated a puzzling affinity for anti-Black political rhetoric, and in the process, shown itself utterly feckless and impotent by comparison. nothing but air and opportunity between coonservatives and getting something, anything, useful accomplished..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 01:32:12 PM cnulan: I agree. The Fox News has no interest in diversity of opinion. If it did, it would stop the name calling, use of racist code words, paying off Uncle Toms like Roy Innis to appear on the air to say ridiculous and racist things about other Blacks that they can't get White males to say in public and let people that disagree with their bias actually talk on the air instead of shouting them down or cutting them off. There is nothing fair and balanced about Fox News and it is a disgrace that the CBC would even consider collaborating with the a racist, right wing propaganda operation like Fox News. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: BT EMAIL: IP: 71.126.173.248 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 01:42:54 PM Outstanding analysis, Professor Overton! In particular the effect the Net is having on flattening the organizational structure and giving voice to more people. Excellent! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Bryan Wilhite EMAIL: rasx@kintespace.com IP: 149.142.243.57 URL: http://kintespace.com/rasxlog/ DATE: 05/01/2007 01:49:51 PM My Black Blog is "autonomous" because I can leave a comment just like this one and you are unable to follow up and investigate just who has contacted you. The value of human life is cheap for properly assimilated Americans. At first I took such overlooking personally but then I thought of Miles Davis and the skill it takes to choose members of your band. Also I learned to get past ego (again and again) to read the other comments on a Blog like this one and judge the quality thereof. Negro assimilation is a resounding success for the majority if the population "of color" on the Internet right about now... Individuation and isolation is by design as America eats its young... The "black" Caucus? Who among "us" remembers what Amiri Baraka did for Shirley Chisholm in Indiana? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Brandon Q. EMAIL: bqwhite@gmail.com IP: 71.227.95.176 URL: http://www.thesuperspade.com DATE: 05/01/2007 01:52:38 PM What's up fam, As a fellow blogger and native Detroiter, thank you for bringing light to this issue Prof. Overton. I think it should be pointed out that the CBCI is looking to host a debate with the Republicans and I think it would speak volumes for the CBC to partner with Republicans on their network and continue with a lame duck Democratic debate, lacking the top three frontrunners. I hope that symbolism doesn't just resonate with me. Morover, the power of Black blogs will I think prove to be the unraveling of Black political incumbency. And honestly, can someone tell me why CBC members have been so quiet on this issue? You would think they didn't have phones or email? Hence, blogs are a direct threat to the political culture of talk and no action. And we are being too generous when we try to say that CBC members don't know what a blog is. They may not understand it the way we do, but Congressional staffers use Blackberry's, laptops, email, etc. So I think it is disingenuous to suggest that CBC members will only reply to letters and not emails. THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE TO RESPOND. They work for us. Lastly, it is hard for CBC folks to deliver when they are in the minority so why are they wasting time shirking their power on Fox when that energy could be used for truly helping the people? Sorry for the long rant, Stay up fam, ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 02:07:53 PM I see that so many black liberals (and to a lesser extent, white liberals) are afraid of this across-the-aisle collaboration. Never mind that such a collaboration provides the CBC with an opportunity to get its ideas out to a different audience (instead of preaching to the choir) and exposes FOX News viewers to more viewpoints by black liberals. Cross-collaboration goes on everyday in politics. But rewarding Faux News for its tacid endorsement of gratuitious and obligatory contempt and mockery of ordinary Black folk, and legitimizing the same by recognizing them as an accorded forum is out of the question. In fact, it shouldn't have been a question in the first place. I'm in agreement with cnulan on this: the affinity for "cuttin' up fa white folks" is just as present on the right side of the political aisle as it is on the left. Worse, many of the so-called Black conservatives who mock and scorn Black folk for a living, are perceived to know better. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 03:55:02 PM i like "blackosphere." quite clever. anyway, you're wrong that black people don't like to embarrass other blacks unnecessarily, especially in front of whites. see, for example, the "you're not black enough" crap barack obama had to endure a couple months ago. question: why are people opposed to the CBC/Foxnews alliance anyway? Foxnews is merely a conservative-leaning news channel. it isn't the KKK. it's partnering with the CBC to bring to a wide audience issues affecting blacks. why is that a bad thing? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 206.169.242.254 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 04:35:06 PM question: why are people opposed to the CBC/Foxnews alliance anyway? Foxnews is merely a conservative-leaning news channel. it isn't the KKK. it's partnering with the CBC to bring to a wide audience issues affecting blacks. why is that a bad thing? Because Fox News isn't interested in Black issues. They're interested in Blaxploitation. They're not interested in segregated and unequally funded schools, or wage and hour disparities, or urban tax dollars being used to subsidize new white suburbs. Fox is more interested in Black vs. Black. Al Sharpton vs. Bill Cosby. Jesse Lee Peterson vs. Jesse Jackson. They're interested in racial entertainment. Not at the expense of the aforementioned, but at my expense and your expense. Ordinary Black folk who do right by themselves, their families, their faith, and their country. So it is, that those who are seeking to become president; those who purport to represent the majority of the Black voting populace, at least had the good sense to say "no". They won't reward or legitimize Fox News for its veiled and subtle hostility toward and mockery of ordinary Black citizens. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 38.102.195.118 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 05:13:30 PM Fox is not merely a conservative leaning news channel, it is a propaganda organ of the Republican party. Conservative leaning would describe just about the entire mainstream media--ABC News, NBC News, the Wall Street Journal, etc. These organizations present a bias to the White House by un questioningly reporting the rhetoric from the White House everyday, but at least they do provide some other points of view to balance their stories. Fox News, on the other hand presents the GOP position on the issue of the day and then RIDICULES the opposing position, if it reports on it at all. There is a difference between being a conservative leaning news organization and a propaganda machine. Fos News knows that people are onto it's propaganda game and is attempting to "buy" some credibility by partnering with the CBC. It knew that no Democrat would go on a debate sponsored solely by Fox News given the way it ridicules Democrats and Hillary Clinton in particular, on a daily basis. The CBC put it's financial greed above it's mission in partnering with Fox and must be called to task for its mistake. Good for the bloggers! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 05:44:57 PM Ronnie B, don't be naive. FOXNEWS's primary goal is to make money. you don't attract viewers by showing stories on black tax dollars. this is why FOXNEWS - and virtually every other news channel out there - devotes countless hours to frivolous stuff like anna nicole and her baby. FOXNEWS doesn't often showcase stories that the black community "really" cares about - but then again, neither does any other cable news station - but that doesn't mean FOXNEWS is "hostile" toward blacks. (FOXNEWS hardly mentions anything about issues affecting the asian-american community, yet i don't hear asians complaining that FOXNEWS doesn't care about them.) you're confusing profit motive with racial hostility. (anyway, one asks why FOXNEWS *should* care about black issues. why should white people care about black issues? isn't it more important for black leaders - like al sharpton - to champion such causes like raising the quality of pre-college education in black communities? of course it is. so why don't more blacks criticize al sharpton for not doing enough in these areas?) obviously sharpton thinks it's more productive to go on and on and on about nappy-headed jokes than to lead the charge in re-appropriating black tax dollars, and FOXNEWS gladly gives him a forum to do so. but this has nothing to do with "hostility": sharpton is a clown, and clowns are entertaining. this is why FOXNEWS features him to the exclusion of more "important" black issues. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Chauncey EMAIL: IP: 169.230.100.245 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 05:49:53 PM cmoney, no, no. FOXNEWS is clearly conservative, but it's no more conservative than the NYTimes is liberal. that's really all there is to say about that. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.154.164 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/01/2007 07:23:44 PM Professor Overton: I read Antoinette Pole's exploratory (the sample size was very small, and the questions were mostly open-ended) "Black Bloggers and the Blogosphere." The paper helped me learn more about what 20 Black political bloggers were doing in order to share their political and cultural analyses, ideologies, or punditry. In addition to providing me with some great information about the history of Black bloggers and some challenges Black bloggers face, the paper convinced me that many thousands of Black people are using blog communities as digital salons. The paper persuaded me that it is likely some popular Black bloggers are encouraging some of their readers to act in political ways. However, the paper is very vague about the magnitudes of these Black political bloggers’ influences on political action. The paper did not give me any way to measure how successful the politically-focused Black Blogosphere is at 1) distributing information to people who would not have received that information via radio, television, newspapers, non-blog sites, podcasts, or friends; 2) connecting people or resources that would not have connected otherwise and thereby strengthening Black social capital or political capital; or 3) catalyzing political action that would not have been catalyzed otherwise. I suspect Black political bloggers have an impact. I just don’t know how big or small that impact is. Without something that would help me quantify Black political blogger impact, I don’t know how to begin to evaluate the force of your post's first or second argument. Moreover, since I don’t know much about how well or how poorly Black bloggers collaborate with one another (How would collaboration be measured? Would my reading your post count as a collaboration even if I hadn’t left a comment?), I don’t know how to begin to evaluate the force of your post's third argument. I’ve asked no fewer than a dozen of my friends in the academe if they were aware of a paper or data-set that would give us some quantifiable evidence that Black political bloggers are responsible for new political or social capital, and if so, how much. I don’t know how we would measure their degree of autonomy or collaboration. We know some of them collaborate. How would we begin to measure their maximum or optimal collaboration levels? Do Technorati, Feedsearch, Blogspot, and Sitemeter give us enough data to measure Black Blogosphere collaboration? And, without some idea of their maximum collaboration levels, how would we determine that their interaction has been “limited, at least with regard to action.” How limited has it been? If we could be doing better, how much better could we be doing? How do we know which people read which blogs or which people get their information from which blogs either by reading a blog or by talking with a friend who reads a blog? Have any sociometricians or political scientists attempted to quantify the influence of the Black Blogosphere for us? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ed Dunn EMAIL: ed@dreamandhustle.com IP: 68.217.9.240 URL: http://www.dreamandhustle.com DATE: 05/01/2007 09:08:29 PM Prof. Overton, I find your assertion Black bloggers was influential in major Democractic candidates dropping out of the CBCI debate to be highly speculative at best. I can verify what you assert with real data and I believe you will be extremely dissappointed at the true state of Black bloggers as it is nothing as you portray. [back to the discussion audience] Before I continue, let me answer E.C. Hopkins question of how we can measure the social impact of a blogs or even bursts. Let's take Blackprof.com for example. What we can do is basically spider or scan Blackprof.com blog everyday to see how many outbound links it have. Those links can be embedded in the content like Prof. Overton just did or they can be comment posters. What is determined next is the burst effect. This means that we follow E.C. Hopkins link to his site for example, see if E.C. Hopkins is linking to other resources online and if he have people on his blog providing links and this goes on and on. The more depth of bloggers linking to other bloggers, the bigger the social impact. With that presented, I've concluded with real data the Black blogosphere is nothing more than a bunch of shucking, jiving crabs in a barrel. And that is putting it nicely. Very few....well actually no Black blogs have the true depth that it takes to create the social effect that other blogs such as technology-based blogs perform. Black blogs rarely link to other Black web sites or provide a diversity of links to other Blacks web sites. The discussion board section of a Black blog are full of two-bit commentator, not influencers who link back to their own blog that can create the depth that I explained above. All of this shows an extremely dissappointing burst effect among all of the Black blogs I've scanned - so dissappointing that I will not even compare it to, let's say the announcement of the iPhone. So you will hear me say the same thing over and over again. All you on this board commenting need to get a blog and create some depth. Take advantage of the trackback system as this creates more links to help create more depth. Get people to visit your blog and have links for them to visit other blogs. Don't throw the links to the left column or right column - mention those links everyday in the content of your blog! This helps you and the other blog show up easier on search engines, increasing visibility. Now once you have the depth, then we can create that network effect Prof. Overton want to visualize. Until then, trust me, you really don't want to see the real numbers about how pathetic the Black blogosphere really is. It's that bad.... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Ronnie B EMAIL: IP: 71.204.121.147 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 09:30:58 PM (anyway, one asks why FOXNEWS *should* care about black issues. why should white people care about black issues? isn't it more important for black leaders - like al sharpton - to champion such causes like raising the quality of pre-college education in black communities? of course it is. so why don't more blacks criticize al sharpton for not doing enough in these areas?) Chauncey You make a valid point about FOX News being motivated by profit; which is why I accuse them of blaxploitation and racial entertainment. The demographic/pyschographic that Fox News relies on, needs to believe that the masses of the Black community are simply clownish, minstrel derivatives of Reverend Chicken Wing, ill-equipped to intellectualize and resolve the issues of the day. More to your point, though, you ask why "white people should care" about Black issues. Quite frankly because we've always been the canary in the coal mine. When the economy is about to tank, Blacks lose their jobs first. When access to health care becomes a commodity, Blacks lost access a long time ago. Education taking a turn for the worst? We already know. Whatever the economic storm, Black people's knees start aching first. This is one reason why white people ought to care. Black issues today become everybody else's epidemic tomorrow. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: bolezn@hotmail.com IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com DATE: 05/01/2007 10:13:07 PM My two cents is that Foxnews is Geraldo Rivera style journalism with a right wing perspective. I think some news outlets are very left wing, particurly NYTimes and NBC news, on issues like immigration they rarely talk about how the debate is about illegal aliens and not legal immigration in fact they call them "undocumented workers" not illegal aliens. They never talk about the ethnic cleansing of black folks in Cali by Chicanos, the are a host of things they never comment on due to their liberal leaning. I see Fox as the opposite but they have a little more tabloid style to their journalism that makes it campy, to be honest I watch Foxnews for a laugh it is like conservative talk radio on TV, a bunch of scared white men and inbred idiots, oh and hot women who can't think their way out of a paper bag (ever notice Fox has the hottest women reporters on TV?!? not coincidence in my estimation). Anyway I'm not going to speak specifically to black blogging, because although I own a blog, I won't describe it as a "black blog" it is a international relations related blog ran by a black man. I don't want to turn it into a "black blog" either, because although I entertain myself with this stuff it is not my primary interest. That being said I think political pedantry for black folks will always be limited. Think about shows like Politically Incorrect, John Stewart, etc. A black man could never make a living doing that. Imagine Chris Rock trying to do that or Dave Chappelle. Won't happen. Why? The truth is black folks care more about silly bull$#1t than politics, there is not market for something like that, for the same reason I think black blogs will never ever reach what white blogs are doing until black people change. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: Dragon Horse EMAIL: bolezn@hotmail.com IP: 68.106.98.16 URL: http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/ DATE: 05/01/2007 10:36:04 PM Regardless of my previous post Ed Dunn made some very good comments, have to start somewhere I guess... ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cmoney EMAIL: IP: 68.55.117.119 URL: DATE: 05/01/2007 10:39:54 PM Chauncey: If Fox News doesn't care about Black people (and I agree, they don't), that is even more reason for the CBC to distance itself from this organization. Dragonhorse: you are right about their on air personalities. Fox always has the most attractive on air personalities. The only exception would be Alan Colmes--the resident liberal troll. Notice how the liberal is hideously ugly? This is because Fox appeals emotion, not intellect and analysis. Classic propaganda technique! ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.154.164 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/01/2007 11:15:13 PM Ed: I understand how we could use spiders and log files to track which computers talk to one another, how frequently they talk, and what they talk about. That information would help us measure the social impact somewhat. However, I want to know more about how blog-based interactions between computers correlates with interactions between real Black people. I’d also like to know more about how blog-based interactions influence Black social capital, political capital, and political action. It could be the case that people who now use blogs decreased their use of other methods of information distribution. And if blogs aren't helping more or better information get to more people, then they could just be replacing other methods of equally effective (or more effective) communication. We would have to interview bloggers, blog readers, and the social networks in which those bloggers and blog readers interact with others in order to determine how far the information in these blogs is reaching or how much of a difference Black blogs are really making, if any. Increased distribution of information via Black blogs does not necessarily lead to increased social capital, political capital, or political action. And blog readership alone doesn’t tell us much. Most bloggers and commentators appear to be pretty ideologically set. I suspect most blog readers are also ideologically set. I’d like to know whether the most popular Black bloggers have enough credibility and rhetorical power to change minds or motivate meaningful political action. Or are they just great hosts for interesting digital conversations that help some of us procrastinate or forestall our boredom? Your point about the quality of content offered by most Black political and cultural blogs has great force with me. While I enjoy several Black blogs, and I enjoy interacting with many of the excellent commentators, I very rarely read expert analyses or syntheses. Novel or illuminating analyses and syntheses often require a lot of expertise, a lot of effort, or a lot of words. Blog posts do not often hint of substantial expertise or effort, and they are rarely lengthy. In fact, most politically-focused Black blogs I visit give me something that is a little more scholarly than casual barbershop politics yet far less educational than good books, scholarly journals, or even articles in the best magazines or newspapers. So, I don't visit most Black blogs looking for high-quality content, valuable political advice, or even good journalism. I visit Black blogs to see what other similarly situated Black folks are talking about and to have those casual, quasi-scholarly conversations well-read nonspecialists tend to have. And, once in a while, when I can’t hold back my vanity, I offer up a lengthy comment. :) ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: nctodc EMAIL: IP: 74.167.233.235 URL: DATE: 05/02/2007 02:46:51 AM In all honesty, I've been back and forth on this Fox News debate and haven't addressed it on my blog for exactly that reason. I agree wholeheartedly with the assertions made across the blogosphere that Fox News continues to be a right wing propaganda machine, which regularly engages in the exploitation of black folk. They are Nixon's Southern Strategy, personified. But, still, I hate the hypocrisy of Democratic candidates, many of whom once-upon-a-time frequented "Fox News Sunday" and debated on the network's stage...what, did they just find out that the network regularly engages in the exploitation of blacks? Did they just discover that for the last six years, Fox News has been a shrill for the Bush administration? This didn't happen yesterday, so why are so many of our presidential candidates coming to the party so late? As for the strength of the black blogosphere, I think it's still questionable--while there certainly is an increased presence of African-Americans on the Internet, I'm not sure that's translated yet to black people reading blogs or even posting blogs. Also, the Washington Post had a story last Saturday on the increasing anonymity of female bloggers because of sexual threats--I'd imagine that a similar problem (threats) exists for black bloggers. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/02/2007 07:55:01 AM
While I enjoy several Black blogs, and I enjoy interacting with many of the excellent commentators, I very rarely read expert analyses or syntheses. Novel or illuminating analyses and syntheses often require a lot of expertise, a lot of effort, or a lot of words. Blog posts do not often hint of substantial expertise or effort, and they are rarely lengthy. In fact, most politically-focused Black blogs I visit give me something that is a little more scholarly than casual barbershop politics yet far less educational than good books, scholarly journals, or even articles in the best magazines or newspapers.Blogs offer indirection and emergence, something no conventional subject matter expert, no matter how well versed, can engender. The barbershop and the blog each serve as pedestrian proxies for the ergotic qualities of a "parable". The primary distinction and benefit of the latter, however, is that it comprises a semi-permanent, portable record that can be archived, circulated, and widely referenced. You can also trace the evolution and proliferation of thought and meme formations in the blogosphere...affording insight into the organic structure of collective narrative(consciousness?) ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.154.164 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/02/2007 09:06:12 AM cnulan: I agree that blogs can help spread ideas and can help ideas dig into the consciousnesses of societies. I just have no clue, not even a vague sense, about know how much idea-spreading or indoctrination Black bloggers are responsible for. Does anyone have a clue? Are Black political bloggers indoctrinating, educating, enlightening, persuading, or motivating dozens, hundreds, thousands, or millions? My comments in this thread reflect my desire to know more about the magnitude of Black blog influence, not how they work as communication and rhetorical tools. For instance, I'd like to know if all the Black bloggers combined have as much of an impact on the idea-distribution to or indoctrination of Blacks as the Russ Parr or Tom Joyner morning shows.
"Blogs offer indirection and emergence,..."I agree.
"...something no conventional subject matter expert, no matter how well versed, can engender."I disagree.
"You can also trace the evolution and proliferation of thought and meme formations in the blogosphere...affording insight into the organic structure of collective narrative (consciousness?)"How could I trace [I read your "trace" as "measure and provide evidence for"] this? Has someone other than Antoinette Pole attempted to do some of this tracing for the Black Blogosphere? What methods did he or she use and what were the results of his or her research and analysis? ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/02/2007 09:48:51 AM
Are Black political bloggers indoctrinating, educating, enlightening, persuading, or motivating dozens, hundreds, thousands, or millions?Is anyone? Mr. Hopkins, your favoritism toward traditional leadership models is showing through. (^; Corporations and mass media obviated salvatory leadership (messianism) many decades ago. Any so-called public figure nowadays is simply a prop in the larger political theatre, (current presidential candidates?) or, media constructed agents of private propaganda (Bill O'Reilly/Al Sharpton?), utilized by corporations to do their bidding. Now, if you call Rupert Murdoch a leader, because he certainly meets all the criteria you noted above, then I would be compelled to alter my diagnosis. However, the fact of the matter is that Murdoch is nothing more than an incrementally visible member of the powers that be (TPTB) who are for the most part quite content to script and direct collective theatre from behind the scenes. He's become visible here of late by stretching out his hand and crushing Rosie O'Donnell and now making a bid for the Bancroft family business (WSJ/Dow Jones) As far as the quality of texts goes, I'd be delighted to hear an example of a subject matter expert whose polymathic depth has been encapsulated and transmitted in anything even remotely ergotic written during the past 50 years? Artists like Ishmael Reed or Jean Baudrillard, yes, pure SME's - I haven't seen anything like that published since the 1950's. imoho - ergotic compression in conventional text (not to mention oratory) has become a mostly lost art...., I'm not lamenting its demise, because I'm very contented with the intrinsic ergotism embodied in forums such as slashdot - which I've long called the digital Apollo Theatre. The existence and popular proliferation of such tools and technologies has more than amply supplanted the old centralized model from my perspective.
How could I trace [I read your "trace" as "measure and provide evidence for"] this? Has someone other than Antoinette Pole attempted to do some of this tracing for the Black Blogosphere? What methods did he or she use and what were the results of his or her research and analysis?Sorry, but that antoinette pole paper was a joke.., with efforts such as JOSS at Carnegie Mellon and trivially available tools such as this one, it's very easy to do tracing in the blogosphere. It's only a matter of time and inclination..., ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: P6 EMAIL: prometheus6@prometheus6.org IP: 69.22.197.177 URL: http://www.prometheus6.org DATE: 05/02/2007 10:15:40 AM
I'm not sure that's translated yet to black people reading blogs or even posting blogs.It has. It has not yet crystalized into an independant structure. Things being as they are, I suspect any such structure would be independent of the overall political blog network in the same sense that third parties are of our overall political system.
Also, the Washington Post had a story last Saturday on the increasing anonymity of female bloggers because of sexual threats--I'd imagine that a similar problem (threats) exists for black bloggers.Yes. We've lost a number of voices from sheer exhaustion. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: E.C. Hopkins EMAIL: IP: 71.220.154.164 URL: http://www.maxambit.com DATE: 05/02/2007 12:31:12 PM cnulan:
”Mr. Hopkins, your favoritism toward traditional leadership models is showing through.“This statement confused me. Indoctrination, education, enlightenment, persuasion, or motivation are reasons why we communicate. Couldn’t we discuss the reasons why we communicate or even the modes of communication without discussing leadership models? I'm familiar with philosophical logic, informal logic, and argumentation theory. Yet, I am unable to determine what a non-fallacious argument for your conclusion could be. FYI: I favor leadership models that achieve measurable objectives. I don’t care if they are traditional, non-traditional, old, or new; if they don’t achieve the real world objectives, then they are bad models. If they achieve the real world objectives, then they are good models.
”As far as the quality of texts goes, I'd be delighted to hear an example of a subject matter expert whose polymathic depth has been encapsulated and transmitted in anything even remotely ergotic written during the past 50 years?“Well, being a linguaphile and dabbler in philology and etymology, I know a “polymath” is someone who has ample knowledge in more than one field. Some would demand that “polymath” only be used to describe a person who has advanced expertise in more than one field, in order to help us differentiate between a polymath, a philomath, and a generalist. However, subject matter experts needn’t be polymaths. So, I don’t know what “polymathic depth” has to do with subject matter expertise or “quality of texts.” I am reading your use of “ergotic” as “a wide-spread or extremely influential mode of communication or information distribution” or “something that has been transported via a wide-spread or extremely influential mode of communication or information distribution.” In the past 50 years, scholars such as Noam Chomsky, John Rawls, Jurgen Habermas, Richard Dawkins, and Amartya Sen, have certainly introduced ideas that were radical, expert, and quite influential. Their ideas spread through several modes of communication. If you would not categorize any of their ideas as having benefitted from ergotic distribution, would you accept any of the ideas brought to us by living Nobel Prize winners in Physics, Chemistry, Economics, or Medicine that have been distributed rather widely through various modes of communication? How about the ideas behind some of our technological and engineering innovations, especially computer hardware and software? Unless one of your criteria for “ergotic” distribution requires an expert’s idea to be as ubiquitous as Marxian Philosophy or Shakespeare’s plays or Plato’s dialogues, I’d say there have been plenty of subject matter expert ideas distributed ergotically during the past 50 years. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if some expert ideas have been distributed so ergotically during the past 50 years that we have forgotten which experts gave them to us. And, as far as the merits of Pole’s exploratory piece go, I’d not call the piece a joke. That seems like a cheap shot. I appreciate the work she did. It was a first step of sorts—a needed first step. We certainly have very little empirical knowledge about the magnitude of Black bloggers’ influence on social capital, political capital, or political action. By the way, the sentence prior to this one, reflects the core standpoint I tried to establish via my previous comments in this thread. :) So, while I do appreciate the peripheral information you have shared in response to my comments in this thread, especially the information similar to that which Ed Dunn shared (information about some of the tools or methods we could use to trace which computers are talking, how frequently they are talking, how long they talk per conversation, and what they are talking about), I’d really like to know if you have any information whatsoever that would help me quantify what the full magnitude of Black blogger influence on Black social capital, political capital, or political action might be. What computers do, with respect to exchanging information provided by Black political blogs and the degree of hyperlinked-based connectedness between computers, might improve the quality of our speculations concerning the Black Blogosphere’s ability to distribute information. However, I’d like to know much more about what the people who use the computers are doing in response to the ideas that are distributed through Black political blogs. And I’d like to know what Black people are doing that they would not be doing if there were no Black political blogs. ----- COMMENT: AUTHOR: cnulan EMAIL: cnulan@oeiad.com IP: 65.69.77.51 URL: http://www.frontlinemultimedia.net DATE: 05/02/2007 01:47:26 PM
Indoctrination, education, enlightenment, persuasion, or motivation are reasons why we communicate....I'm familiar with philosophical logic, informal logic, and argumentation theory. Yet, I am unable to determine what a non-fallacious argument for your conclusion could be.Pure information interchange within a community of interest seems to be the piece lacking here, which is at least in part why I invoked the relatively leaderless model of slashdot...,
In the past 50 years, scholars such as Noam Chomsky, John Rawls, Jurgen Habermas, Richard Dawkins, and Amartya Sen, have certainly introduced ideas that were radical, expert, and quite influential. Their ideas spread through several modes of communication.sho's you right. I'm very familiar with Chomsky and Dawkins and much of their popular work, and they have proven very influential - though neither has ever even remotely approached the hypothetical position of "salvatory leader", rather, both have played significant roles in multiple fields as "revelatory informers". i.e., each belongs to a larger community of interest to which they contribute mightily, though neither leads any organization or group of people.
